Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Great new shiur from Rav Bar Hayim
q_q_:
the other time I have heard it said that halacha is not set in stone, that a later generation can disagree with an earlier generation, that even a position in the shulchan aruch can be rejected. This is a funny one, I heard it from the charedi rabbi, dovid gottlieb of ohr.. He said it's a misconception that the halacha is set in stone, that a late generation cannot question an earlier one. He gave as an example, the Vilna Gaon differing with the shulchan aruch, I think it was a soft example, like a law had a reason and the reason no longer applied, so some thought the law didn't apply today. The Vilna Gaon said it always applies, but for a kabbalistic reason. Perhaps there was an implicit suggestion he was making there about having to be a Vilna Gaon type to do it! I doubt that rabbi dovid gottlieb would go as far as to say that any rabbi today can do it, since Charedim hold strong to the gadol/gedolim idea(let's not go there about gedolim, we've been there).
More importantly.
I have not listened to rabbi bar hayyim as much as you.. but I would be suprised if he held quite as you suggest. I doubt that it's even a question of looking at what great rabbis, rishonim and acharonim, have said, and he says "ok, who do I follow.. which ones makes the mose sense for deciding this halacha".. Suppose for example, that he sees that one is right on this point, and another is right on another point he has differences and agreements with various aspects of each of their points. And so he would be able to have his own position.
The cases he gives are safe cases that won't yield more wrath than necessary. He gives examples where he has a rishon that agrees with him. It may be that it just so happens that that is always the case. But I doubt that he would say "sorry, you can't have this position, you need a gadol, a rishon or acharon, to hold the same position". And if he says that to those that aren't tamidei chachamim, they won't go completely off the rails.
I really do think he is saying Look at the Gemara, and make your own decision.
Of course, to make your own decision you have to know your stuff. He says, you have to be a talmud chacham (which suggests perhaps knowing the whole of shas very well)..
In practice he is saying that one who is not a talmud chacham,, can't make his own decision.. Funnily enough, The charedim are not that far off from saying that, they just take it to the nth degree and say you have to be a "Gadol"! The essence of charedim is that they just go more strict. Where the big difference is, is for a talmid chacham living in charedi society vs a talmid chacham living in a rabbi bar hayyim / non-charedi society. Finally he can make his own decisions!
judeanoncapta:
Kahane was Right BT, you did a great job.
Very impressive.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on December 03, 2008, 09:41:58 AM --- But I doubt that he would say "sorry, you can't have this position, you need a gadol, a rishon or acharon, to hold the same position". And if he says that to those that aren't tamidei chachamim, they won't go completely off the rails.
--- End quote ---
Well I never said that either. But I would urge not looking at this too simplistically. No posek or authority would have the right to "discard" earlier sources. Rav Bar Hayim specifically says he has the duty to survey all of this material in coming up with his own stance. Nonetheless, he is committed to upholding the truth as well. Just like Rashi, Ramban, Ritva and all the others were.
--- Quote ---
I really do think he is saying Look at the Gemara, and make your own decision.
--- End quote ---
But "Look at the Gemara" does include looking at the mishna, the gemara, all the rishonim and poskim, and also of course knowing the rest of the Torah and every other prerequisite. But it does involve examining those other commentaries and rulings. Not just grabbing a masechta and saying hmm I see it like this, here's my own commentary and how it is, here's my halacha- while ignoring all those other sources and facts available to us.
--- Quote ---Of course, to make your own decision you have to know your stuff. He says, you have to be a talmud chacham (which suggests perhaps knowing the whole of shas very well)..
--- End quote ---
Yes I would agree. That is definitely necessary. He's not speaking about the average 'baal habayit' but about the halachic system which is propagated by the talmidei chachamim. The 'Lomdus Beth Yoseph postmodernism' shiur is very informative in this regard. I highly recommend it. He suggests that there is prevalent today a pernicious influence upon those who are responsible for the halachic system.
--- Quote ---In practice he is saying that one who is not a talmud chacham,, can't make his own decision.. Funnily enough, The charedim are not that far off from saying that, they just take it to the nth degree and say you have to be a "Gadol"! The essence of charedim is that they just go more strict. Where the big difference is, is for a talmid chacham living in charedi society vs a talmid chacham living in a rabbi bar hayyim / non-charedi society. Finally he can make his own decisions!
--- End quote ---
As far as 'making the decisions' in terms of halacha, when has it ever been that there was no general authoritative heirarchy? There always was. The ignorant doesn't make up his own halacha. But, if I'm understanding correctly, it's the ahistorical limitations the charedim are placing on today's talmidei chachamim that Rav Bar Hayim takes issue with.
Rav Bar Hayim seems to suggest that the charedi restraints are contrary to the majority of Jewish history in terms of what duties and responsibilities/freedoms were upon the chachamim of the generation. They are bound to make their own decisions or else not fulfilling their role. Whereas haredim seem to be telling us basically that NO ONE, not even the biggest authorities really have the ability or right to make any decisions or disagree with earlier sources. This seems to me personally to be a prime cause of "machmir-ism," which I think is definitely a developing problem within haredi Judaism. Furthermore, I think it's fair to assume that the average plain Jew has the right to go with whatever opinion makes the most sense to him as well - out of the opinions coming from the major authorities. This is my own understanding, but if there was a diverse field of chachamim with different views he could choose the Torah that speaks to him the most. Even if he doesn't know all that much himself. He's not going to "roast and toast" for disobeying 'the gedolim' (ie, my gedolim) like many haredim would have a person believe.
The interesting thing about Rabbi Gottlieb that you mentioned is that I also (as you do) wonder if he would consider anyone today on the level of a Vilna gaon that could have such a liberty to 'disagree' on anything that is 'la maaseh' halacha. I know a little bit about Rabbi Gottlieb and from what I know of his views about 'gedolim' it seems unlikely. I will have to ask my friend what he heard firsthand from Rabbi Gottlieb, a comment regarding 'the gedolim,' which informed my presumption here, because I don't remember it exactly but the general impression that I got - that I do remember.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on December 03, 2008, 11:41:16 AM ---Kahane was Right BT, you did a great job.
Very impressive.
--- End quote ---
Thanks. It was a labor of love for everyone here. Hopefully it will be informative and/or interesting for people.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on December 03, 2008, 02:07:19 PM ---<snip>
As far as 'making the decisions' in terms of halacha, when has it ever been that there was no general authoritative heirarchy? There always was. The ignorant doesn't make up his own halacha. But, if I'm understanding correctly, it's the ahistorical limitations the charedim are placing on today's talmidei chachamim that Rav Bar Hayim takes issue with.
--- End quote ---
not just ahistorical.
unhalachic..
Alot of their hashkafa comes from their interpretation of aggada.
And also, the Non and Anti-Maimonidean side of the Maimonidean conflict.
This is an article by a Maimonidean scholar.. He is VERY bias, and anti Nachmonides and others. But he has some interesting points.
www.chayas.com/AntiRAMBAM.pdf
^^^^ I strongly suggest you look at that article, you will find it fascinating.
He actually blames the RAMBAN(with a nun) for much of the situation..
saying that he misinterpreted that pasuk about "following the judges in your times", he says the RAMBAN says it refers to Sages. And that these sages had ruach hakodesh. (the talmud interprets it as refering to the sanhedrin, and maybe the pshat does too. The idea of it referring to sages was apparently an innovation)
Interestingly, if you look at the story of the Yemenite jews, they were at a down point jewishly, and the RAMBAM provided them with the Mishneh Torah.
I doubt that yemenites, had much access or knowledge of Aggada. (they know halacha well thanks to the RAMBAM, who only really wrote on halacha, not aggada)
There is an article on this rambamist/maimonidean website
http://www.torathmoshe.com/
where the author of one article actually says he differs from other maimonideans, in that he , I can't remember his words, but he takes aggadic teachings more seriously.
There are many influences that have made charedim the way they are.. Aggada, and Haskalah(enlightenment). And science!
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on December 03, 2008, 02:07:19 PM ---Rav Bar Hayim seems to suggest that the charedi restraints are contrary to the majority of Jewish history in terms of what duties and responsibilities/freedoms were upon the chachamim of the generation. They are bound to make their own decisions or else not fulfilling their role. Whereas haredim seem to be telling us basically that NO ONE, not even the biggest authorities really have the ability or right to make any decisions or disagree with earlier sources. This seems to me personally to be a prime cause of "machmir-ism," which I think is definitely a developing problem within haredi Judaism.
Furthermore, I think it's fair to assume that the average plain Jew has the right to go with whatever opinion makes the most sense to him as well - out of the opinions coming from the major authorities. This is my own understanding, but if there was a diverse field of chachamim with different views he could choose the Torah that speaks to him the most. Even if he doesn't know all that much himself. He's not going to "roast and toast" for disobeying 'the gedolim' (ie, my gedolim) like many haredim would have a person believe.
The interesting thing about Rabbi Gottlieb that you mentioned is that I also (as you do) wonder if he would consider anyone today on the level of a Vilna gaon that could have such a liberty to 'disagree' on anything that is 'la maaseh' halacha. I know a little bit about Rabbi Gottlieb and from what I know of his views about 'gedolim' it seems unlikely. I will have to ask my friend what he heard firsthand from Rabbi Gottlieb, a comment regarding 'the gedolim,' which informed my presumption here, because I don't remember it exactly but the general impression that I got - that I do remember.
--- End quote ---
I think rabbi gottlieb of ohr would say that Gedolim of our times -can- disagree with the shulchan aruch. for sure. Not just in theory, but in practice too. They don't have to be on the Vilna Gaon's level. Being a Gadol is enough.
According to most rabbis these days, we are supposed to follow the Gedolim in our times. (that verse in deut - where I gave a link that they are misinterpreting it)
So yes, Reb Moshe Feinstein could have.
Rav Elyashiv could.
I'm sure rabbi dovid gottlieb wouldn't say they couldn't.
And wouldn't object if they did.
But
In reality, I doubt that they themselves would do it, they would see themselves as too humble. And they would see it as arrogant to do so.
It's not so much a problem of "can they", since even though they can , being gedolim, they get over that hurdle. They still wouldn't.
And Rabbi Gottlieb, is no slouch, he has been through Shas 6+ times (and you can imagine how he goes through it!!!!!!!!!!!). He wouldn't consider himself a Gadol. He learns with one of his rebbes, Rabbi Meiselman , who he obvioúsly respects enormously http://dovidgottlieb.blogspot.com/
but I doubt Rav Meiselman is considered a Gadol.
BUT, for one reason or another, there are -always- gedolim!! The charedim will look for them.
The big issue in charedi society, is that even the gedolim themselves, would be too humble to go against a decision in the shulchan aruch..
Even though nobody "below" them would ever say they couldn't go against an earlier opinion.
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