Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Great new shiur from Rav Bar Hayim
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
As a side note, Rav Bar Hayim learned the pronunciation as taught by Rabbi ben Tzion HaKohen who wrote a sefer describing with about 30 proofs for each item how to correctly pronounce Hebrew based on the textual sources, and later a second book which was abridged, and had about 4 proofs for each item. Rav Bar Hayim learned under this rabbi for some time many years ago.
Now relating back to Talmud Yerushalmi and how this anecdote about the pronunciation relates back to the overall subject. If you ask the majority of religious Jews, will there be a Beth Hamikdash (Holy Temple) in the future, they will say yes, and if you ask how will it get there? The majority will say ‘it will fall from heaven.’ The Rav has tried this many times. Rav Bar Hayim also surveyed people many times asking do you or anyone you know ever avoid eating bread just to avoid having to say birkath hamazon (blessing of thanks for sustenance) afterwards. So many people say, almost everyone asked, that either they do it or they’ve heard of their friends doing so. This was in reference to the Rav’s revival of nusach eretz Yisrael for birkath hamazon in the birkon (prayer sheet) available on machon shilo website (it happens to be shorter than the standard nusach of Ashkenaz and Mizrachi prevelant today, which are quite lengthy). It is a big problem that people avoid a positive deoraissa (from the Torah) misswah because they want to avoid saying very lenthy berachoth (blessings) afterwards. And this proves something has gone wrong with the nusach in use (many additions were added over the generations to make it more wordy and longer than necessary).
The overwhelming majority also believe the Temple will fall from the heaven. Maybe they will say the gemara says it somewhere or Rashi does, but they are usually not exactly sure – just convinced that that is their belief. And it is true that Rashi does say such a thing. Without a doubt. But “I must tell you, with all the cavod in the world for Rashi… I do not believe such a thing for one moment… [it is just not] possible… I completely categorically deny that such a thing will ever happen, and I believe that to believe such a thing is ridiculous. Based on: Based on the fact that I am a rational, reasonable person, who knows that is not how the world works… I know that the Torah tells us (quotes a verse) the first mikdash – that is to say, the mishkan – was built by human beings. I know the first Beth Hamikdash was built in Yerushalayim by Shlomo Hamelech by human beings – it didn’t fall out of Heaven. I know the second Beth Hamikdash was built by humans and did not fall out of Heaven. I have no reason whatsoever to believe that the third Beth Hamikdash will be any different from the first three buildings (mishkan plus first & 2nd Beth Hamikdash).”
Questioner in crowd: Are you saying Hashem can’t do that?
Rav Bar Hayim: “Of course not. Hashem can do anything, He can create the universe from nothing, He can do anything He likes.” But that is not the issue. “The issue is whether it is rational and reasonable for us to think, that the world as we know it as Hashem has created it and as we experience it, is it rational to assume first of all that that is what Hashem does? We see (from the Torah) it’s not what Hashem does.” It is not rational to believe the world operates in this way. And when the Torah tells us it is our job to do so, that to build the Beth Hamikdash is a misswah, like any other misswah from the Torah – how is it rational to assume that at some point in history this misswah ceased being a misswah and somehow instead it is now Hashem’s job to take care of it for us. This uproots a major principle of the Torah. Hashem gives US misswoth in the Torah. He tells us our obligations. It is not directed at Hashem, and He is not talking to Himself. He is telling us what to do. We therefore have to act in this world in a systematic manner and organized way to bring about a scenario where we are able to fulfill the misswoth. They apply to us, the Jewish people, and we are commanded to do them.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
It is equally irrational for a Jew to refrain from building a Sukkah on erev Sukkoth, expecting it to fall from Heaven, and then when it doesn’t fall from the sky, he gives the excuse for why he is not eating and living in a Sukkah on the chag, that he was expecting G-d to build it for him and send it down to him from heaven. About such a person you would probably say he should see a medical professional, that there is something wrong with him. And you would be right. It is equally wrong and irrational to expect the Third Temple to fall from heaven. This contradicts the entire thrust of the Torah. The Torah tells us the misswah, describing for us there and in Torah she baal peh and in Rambam etc how to build a certain building in a certain place for a certain purpose, all described for us – that the Jewish people are obligated to carry this out. That we should expect it to be done for us and fall from the sky is a ridiculous claim and goes against the whole Torah.
(Some inaudible grumbling in the crowd, and Rav Bar Hayim asks them to hold their question for a moment).
Now, there is a connection between this and the Yerushalmi as follows. Rashi is not making this claim out of nowhere or from nothing. He makes it based on a certain sugiyah (discussion) in the Talmud Bavli where it is not said explicitly but it is implied between the lines that the mikdash will fall from Heaven. Rashi read between the lines and based himself on that. And the Tosafoth say the same thing. Rav Bar Hayim asserts that this interpretation of what is being implied by the sugiyah there in the Bavli is “quite right.” That that is the message the Bavli is trying to convey, although one mustn’t agree with the idea, and has room to interpret otherwise. But the Rav agrees with the interpretation of this Bavli passage. Of course there is also the Meiri who knew the sugiya and the Rashi and Tosafoth, but was not happy with this response and gave a more rational and down to earth explanation instead, that the Temple would not fall from the sky, which is a more far-fetched explanation of this gemara, but a more rational approach to life nonetheless.
But the Talmud Yerushalmi does not say this idea of a Temple falling from Heaven, and in fact says the exact opposite. It makes it clear that it will be built by human beings and in a time and place when things are far from perfect. The discussion of details of what is said there in the Yerushalmi is a topic for another shiur. But certainly it is made very clear it will be built by humans BEFORE the time of Moshiach (the “messiah”), and it shows the Yerushalmi is not making this assumption of buildings, or the Mikdash, falling from heaven… And in a letter written to Rav Kook by someone asking him “Isn’t it accepted fact that the Third Temple will fall from heaven?” Rav Kook writes a response, “heaven forbid such a thing should be an accepted rule of thumb in Judaism,” especially considering we know this gemara in the Yerushalmi says the opposite, chas vshalom (G-d forbid) to claim there is some fundamental concept in Judaism that is contradicted plainly by an express Yerushalmi. That was Rav Kook’s response.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
Rav Bar Hayim says in his opinion the Yerushalmi on many issues presents a more intellectually honest, down-to-earth and common sense approach to things, but Torah in the galuth (exile/Diaspora) becomes degraded. (Ie, the Talmud Bavli is the Talmud of the galuth, and reflects Torah-of-galuth, while Talmud Yerushalmi is the Talmud of Eretz Yisrael (Land of Israel) and reflects Torah-of-Eretz Yisrael rather than Torah-of-Galuth). And this is not such a big chiddush (new idea). This is not a new idea and should not be a surprising thing at all to you. In megillath eichah (Lamentations, which we recite on Tisha B’Av, our national day of mourning where we lament all of the terrible tragedies that have befallen us in our history, including the Temple being destroyed and our being exiled from our land and sent into galuth). The verse says – the king of the Jewish people and her leaders are in galuth, and therefore there is no Torah. From this we see that in galuth you will not find “real Torah.” By definition Torah in the Galuth goes wrong. It is like planting a tree in soil that is not fit for that kind of tree. In Masecheth Hagiga in Talmud Bavli, it says, “Once the Jewish people went into galuth, ‘ain licha betool Torah gadol mizeh’ (translation: there was no greater nullification of Torah than this).” How can it say this when there were certainly great yeshivoth in Bavel, tremendous gaonim, at some point in history they were more numerous than the institutions in Eretz Yisrael and with more talmidim (students), so how can the Bavli say this statement? Rav Bar Hayim says, “Because real, authentic Torah, which is very much connected to the real world and about how to apply the Torah in the real world, rather than creating some kind of virtual system for maintaining Jewish existence in a galuth reality – that is a different kind of Torah altogether, a different magnitude altogether.”
Talmud Bavli is in many ways and many instances discussing a Judaism that is divorced from the real world – a system that worked fairly well in the galuth in the past, but in the future, an approach is needed that is rooted in the real world in a down to earth and rational understanding of the Torah and misswoth. (Talmud Yerushalmi being the alternative in cases like this). So when the Torah says to build a mikdash it means to build it, and not to wait for it to fall from heaven, and not even to assume that it might fall from heaven just because we only have three data points of historical precedence (even when all three indicate it will be built by people). It should be assumed, like every other misswah, it is a misswah for us to do because it says exactly so. And like it says in Rambam, it is a misswah aseh (positive commandment) for the Jewish people to build a Beth Hamikdash. And when Rambam says based on the gemara, all Jews men and women are required to pitch in to this national project of building it, that is exactly what it means. Not speaking about a virtual mikdash but a real one. And it will require a great amount of work and planning, engineers, money etc.
In jest, Rav Bar Hayim says to consider the public train system fiasco (has been planned for Jerusalem/Israel for a long time now) and what a disaster that has been, and all the more so something so much more important how difficult it will be with the engineers, planners and workmen we have in this country.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
Someone in crowd asks: Is the Rambam’s opinion on this issue a minority opinion? Where does he stand relative to other chachamim on this issue to build a mikdash?
Rav Bar Hayim responds: It is difficult to say minority vs majority opinion etc because that would require collecting all the data and deciding who is to be included and who should not be. But the bottom line is that Rambam holds this opinion, and I (Rav Bar Hayim) know Rashi does not, but the Abarbanel holds also this position just explained (agrees with Rambam), and perhaps some of the baalei Tosafoth do not. Kuzari (Rav Yehudah Ha Lewi) also agrees with Rambam. Towards the end of his greatest work “The Kuzari,” the Kuzari King asks the Chacham when the Jewish people will go back to Israel, build the mikdash and do all these things already- things which they are clearly required to do? The chacham (ie Rav Yehudah ha Lewi) responds, “when the Jewish people decide they want to do it, and they get up and do it, that is when it will happen.” He did not imagine it would happen any other way, because it cannot happen any other way. Rav Bar Hayim adds, “And one would imagine that 2,000 years of bitter experience would also perhaps indicate that that opinion is correct. It did not happen by itself and it will not happen by itself.”
Therefore when Rav Bar Hayim hears people say “moshiach will come at any moment” the Rav always chuckles. “Because I know for a fact the moschiach is not going to come tomorrow or the day after because I know that is not how it works. It is not some miraculous advent of some individual who falls from Heaven on a white donkey and says ‘hello, I’m the moschiach.’ ” According to Judaism, that is a x-tian and false understanding of the concept of the melech hamoschiach (literally, the anointed king). If you look in the sources, including the Rambam, you will see it is an evolutionary historical process which occurs in the real world, propelled forward by human agency. “If I see at this moment in time we are not anywhere near getting ourselves on track and moving in that direction, then I know it is not going to happen tomorrow or anytime soon. Because I know that we have a long way to go before we even get ourselves on the right road.”
Inaudible question from audience (probably, why can’t you expect miraculous redemption)
Rav Bar Hayim responds: For the same reason I don’t expect my lulav to fall from heaven. (Note by KWR BT: Lulav is a species of plant that is used for a misswah on holiday of Sukkoth. It is grown usually in Israel and some places in Turkey from what I understand, and then harvested and purchased by Jews all over the world to perform the yearly misswah).
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
Audience member: But Hashem split the Red Sea!
Rav Bar Hayim responds: Fine but that is not a misswah. There is no misswah for me to split the Red Sea. Hashem can split the Red Sea any time he wishes. But I’m not commanded to split the Red Sea. If I’m commanded to do it, I have to figure out a way to do it, but because I can’t (humans cannot do this), we were not commanded to do this.
Audience member: But I don’t know how it (ie, the advent of the Beth Hamikdash) will happen…
Rav Bar Hayim: But I do know. Because the Torah tells us. It’s very easy to know. (Quotes the verse from the Torah). And it says in the Rambam as a halacha that it is a chovah (obligation) from the Torah for the Jewish people to build the Mikdash. And I don’t know who exactly disagrees with this Rambam. It goes without saying that this won’t happen because you or I want it. We can’t decide tomorrow we want it up and then have it up automatically within a year. It has to happen first that the Jewish people organizes itself as a nation in its own land with its own state with a Torah-oriented leadership leading the nation, who will be interested in moving forward with such a project. And they will decide to embark on this process. It’s clearly a project of massive proportions. But that is how it will happen. If you want to build a mikdash the first step is to get a Jewish government in place.
End of shiur. Enjoy. Shabbath Shalom.
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