Regarding abusive words

[q_q_]

A big problem with these words, is that one needs sense to use them sensibly.

if people start be they a K word(which is very odd) ,

or a word like Yidden(which is only really done by very sensitively by jews that know what they're doing, it's used by those jews, amongst jews that also know somewhat what they are doing)

Or hebrew curses. (which are used for those like Hitler) . Yet some here , not have used them on people they shouldn't. (at least one person even used them on other members of the forum).  Sensible gentiles don't even use these terms, it's idiot ones that do.

Or the word Shvartza. The word is part of a jewish culture.

We do have some puerile characters here that pick up these words , throw them around, and don't use them properly.

And people are teaching them these things. 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I thought "Yidden" was just a term for "Jews."  But in Yiddish  (I think?)

[q_q_]

I thought "Yidden" was just a term for "Jews."  But in Yiddish  (I think?)

it is.. but how often do you hear gentiles talking about "Yidden"? (never)
Or jews throwing the term around? (never)

I could see it happening at JTF though if people start teaching these words to immature people. As has already happened with other words.


And there's also the term Yid.  It's an offensive word most of the time.

But it is possible for a jew that really knows what he is doing, to use it while talking to other jews that also know somewhat what they are doing. Even that is still rare though. 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I thought "Yidden" was just a term for "Jews."  But in Yiddish  (I think?)

it is.. but how often do you hear ....jews throwing the term around? (never)

Actually quite often.  Especially by people of Eastern European descent whose grandparents/great grandparents/parents spoke Yiddish in the home.

And there's also the term Yid.  It's an offensive word most of the time.

But it is possible for a jew that really knows what he is doing, to use it while talking to other jews that also know somewhat what they are doing. Even that is still rare though. 

I'm not sure I follow, what is offensive about the word Yid?  It's singular form of Yidden.  It means a Jew.   Why would it take someone "knowing what they are doing" in order to say it?     It's not anything like the k-word, which is an epithet.....

[JewishAmericanPatriot]

I thought "Yidden" was just a term for "Jews."  But in Yiddish  (I think?)

it is.. but how often do you hear ....jews throwing the term around? (never)

Actually quite often.  Especially by people of Eastern European descent whose grandparents/great grandparents/parents spoke Yiddish in the home.

And there's also the term Yid.  It's an offensive word most of the time.

But it is possible for a jew that really knows what he is doing, to use it while talking to other jews that also know somewhat what they are doing. Even that is still rare though. 

I'm not sure I follow, what is offensive about the word Yid?  It's singular form of Yidden.  It means a Jew.   Why would it take someone "knowing what they are doing" in order to say it?     It's not anything like the k-word, which is an epithet.....

My zayde and bubbe often used the word "Yidden", I never saw anything wrong with it! It means, "Jews". "Yid" is the Yiddish word for "Jew". So what if antisemites co-opted it as an insult? Its not how it was originally used.

I recall many terms I rarely hear now...such as Der Aybishter for Hashem, and pushke for tzedakah box.

[q_q_]

If people started saying Yid in place of the word Jew, then the way it would come out would also be not how it was originally used.

It would be very offensive. Nobody does it for good reason.

[muman613]

I must add that I have never heard the term 'yid' or 'yidden' used in a derogatory fashion. As a matter of fact several of the Rabbis I listen to use this word to describe religious Jews. I dont see anything wrong with the word 'yid' and I have not heard the antisemites use it like the K word.

PS: There is a Jewish blog I read called YidWithLid which is a good source of news..

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

If people started saying Yid in place of the word Jew, then the way it would come out would also be not how it was originally used.

It would be very offensive. Nobody does it for good reason.

It's NOT TRUE that no one does it.   If you are ever around religious Jews of east European descent who come from families who spoke yiddish, it is quite common.    I've heard charedi Jews say things like "so many frum yidden" describing a scene at the kotel or something like that.   Yidden is a term meaning Jews.   It's not an epithet or an offense.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Actually a great charedi Rav in the town I lived in the past year used the term Yidden all the time to address his congregants and the Jewish people in general, now that I think about it!   He definitely came from a Yiddish speaking family background from Europe, for sure!

[q_q_]

If you read carefully exactly what i've said, it's entirely consistent with what you just described.

It's one thing for a person born in eastern europe. Or a charedi, - as I said, a jew that knows what he's doing - addressing a group of jews.  Using that word, and they use it in a very particular manner culturally, particular tone, a particular way.

But that's very different to -anybody- arbitrarily using the word in place of the word jew.

I guarantee that were anybody to use it arbitrarily, it would not seem normal at all.

[Rubystars]

It particularly bothers me when Gentiles curse Jews using Jewish curses. That just rubs me the wrong way even though I'm not Jewish.

[Shlomo]

I use the word "Yid" sometimes and I always mean it respectfully.

JTF cares very deeply about it's members and their feelings. Chaim has stated this verbatim and loves the members more deeply than most know.

Abusive language to our enemies or the enemies of the Jewish people is completely acceptable. The enemies of Israel are human garbage.

Abusive language toward our members or fellow Jews who love Torah is not acceptable, against the forum rules, and people will be banned if they persist in doing this. A little respect towards good people goes a long way. Debate will always be emotional and personal but we are commanded by Torah to put ourselves in others shoes, do our best to protect their pride, and refrain from needlessly making others angry or hurting them.

[q_q_]

It particularly bothers me when Gentiles curse Jews using Jewish curses. That just rubs me the wrong way even though I'm not Jewish.

This has only happened on JTF..  (For fairly obvious reasons, unfortunately. I don't know what Chaim thinks about it).

Normally when jews speak to non-jews, then even when speaking of Hitler, we don't say ysz.  Or when greeting jews in a secular establishment, we don't say "shalom".     It's our way of keeping our own ways , as our own ways.
It's quite different to muslims.

Rabbi Kahane was a great example of man that was able to adapt. His talk to a bunch of young jewish children was deep, but completely different to his talk to politicians and journalists.

[q_q_]

I use the word "Yid" sometimes and I always mean it respectfully.<snip>

but would you use it in converation with a gentile neighbour?
with a news reporter?

it's not for them.

I personally don't even use that particular word..  I think it takes alot of skill to use it. The only peope i've heard use it, is a charedi rabbi, or a yiddish speaking jew from eastern europe. They say it harmlessly even with a certain accent that helps..

I'm sure you say it well.. But I wouldn't suggest using it continuously when talking to gentiles ..  (or even to jews!! The charedi rabbi I have in mind only used it when he had an important message!) 

To use it often teaches people that it's ok. People that don't know what they are doing People that would throw it around. People even that shouldn't be using it at all..  e.g. hebrew curse words

It's precisely that problem that caused some immature people to curse jews with hebrew curses. It's purely a result of Chaim using those curses continuously, and that's why that phenomenon has only happened on JTF.
Obviously it's up to chaim, and I know he has told one person to stop cursing a certain person, and the other person that cursed members s banned. But I am pointing out that it happened here for that reason.  Saying it around te wrong people. And continuously.  Teaching the wrong people, people that shouldn't be using the words at all.

[muman613]

It particularly bothers me when Gentiles curse Jews using Jewish curses. That just rubs me the wrong way even though I'm not Jewish.

This has only happened on JTF..  (For fairly obvious reasons, unfortunately. I don't know what Chaim thinks about it).

Normally when jews speak to non-jews, then even when speaking of Hitler, we don't say ysz.  Or when greeting jews in a secular establishment, we don't say "shalom".     It's our way of keeping our own ways , as our own ways.
It's quite different to muslims.

Rabbi Kahane was a great example of man that was able to adapt. His talk to a bunch of young jewish children was deep, but completely different to his talk to politicians and journalists.

I beg to differ with one thing in this post. The use of the greeting Shalom is not just for Jews when speaking to Jews in a religious setting. The word means "Peace" and it is a common greeting also in the secular world. I have not seen any rule, halacha or minhag, which specifies the use of this greeting. The only rule I know is that we should not use this greeting when we are in the restroom or other dirty, unholy, place. If someone can point out the halacha which forbids this, please inform me..


muman613

PS: The closest thing I find is a warning not to greet people with this word before morning davening.. [ http://vbm-torah.org/archive/tefila/67-22tefila.htm ]

http://torahsearch.com/page.cfm/4648

The Hebrew greeting Shalom is much more than a conventional method of address. The Talmud tells us that it is forbidden to wish someone Shalom in a bathhouse because Shalom is the name of G-d and a bathhouse is not a fitting place to utter G-d?s name.

In the story of Ruth, when Boaz comes from Beit Lechem, he greets the harvesters by using the name of G-d. From here we learn that a Jew may use the name of G-d as a greeting and it is not considered to be taking the Name of Heaven in vain. In fact, there is an opinion that we are obligated to greet each other with G-d?s name by saying ?Shalom.?

Why should we be obliged to greet each other using G-d?s name, by saying Shalom?What?s wrong with ?Good Morning!? or ?Have a nice day!??

When we greet someone with Shalom, we are blessing them that they should reach their perfection.

[q_q_]

It particularly bothers me when Gentiles curse Jews using Jewish curses. That just rubs me the wrong way even though I'm not Jewish.

This has only happened on JTF..  (For fairly obvious reasons, unfortunately. I don't know what Chaim thinks about it).

Normally when jews speak to non-jews, then even when speaking of Hitler, we don't say ysz.  Or when greeting jews in a secular establishment, we don't say "shalom".     It's our way of keeping our own ways , as our own ways.
It's quite different to muslims.

Rabbi Kahane was a great example of man that was able to adapt. His talk to a bunch of young jewish children was deep, but completely different to his talk to politicians and journalists.

I beg to differ with one thing in this post. The use of the greeting Shalom is not just for Jews when speaking to Jews in a religious setting. The word means "Peace" and it is a common greeting also in the secular world. I have not seen any rule, halacha or minhag, which specifies the use of this greeting. The only rule I know is that we should not use this greeting when we are in the restroom or other dirty, unholy, place. If someone can point out the halacha which forbids this, please inform me..


muman613

PS: The closest thing I find is a warning not to greet people with this word before morning davening.. [ http://vbm-torah.org/archive/tefila/67-22tefila.htm ]

I'm talking culture and sense.. Not saying there is a halachic prohibition.

I am well aware that you like teaching gentiles torah, and so on.

Most jews have more wisdom than that. I've explained the reasons to you in the past but it never went in.

At least you don't teach gentiles abusive words though . That's the important thing in this thread!

[muman613]

It particularly bothers me when Gentiles curse Jews using Jewish curses. That just rubs me the wrong way even though I'm not Jewish.

This has only happened on JTF..  (For fairly obvious reasons, unfortunately. I don't know what Chaim thinks about it).

Normally when jews speak to non-jews, then even when speaking of Hitler, we don't say ysz.  Or when greeting jews in a secular establishment, we don't say "shalom".     It's our way of keeping our own ways , as our own ways.
It's quite different to muslims.

Rabbi Kahane was a great example of man that was able to adapt. His talk to a bunch of young jewish children was deep, but completely different to his talk to politicians and journalists.

I beg to differ with one thing in this post. The use of the greeting Shalom is not just for Jews when speaking to Jews in a religious setting. The word means "Peace" and it is a common greeting also in the secular world. I have not seen any rule, halacha or minhag, which specifies the use of this greeting. The only rule I know is that we should not use this greeting when we are in the restroom or other dirty, unholy, place. If someone can point out the halacha which forbids this, please inform me..


muman613

PS: The closest thing I find is a warning not to greet people with this word before morning davening.. [ http://vbm-torah.org/archive/tefila/67-22tefila.htm ]

I'm talking culture and sense.. Not saying there is a halachic prohibition.

I am well aware that you like teaching gentiles torah, and so on.

Most jews have more wisdom than that. I've explained the reasons to you in the past but it never went in.

At least you don't teach gentiles abusive words though . That's the important thing in this thread!

q_q_,

The wisdom I have is through learning. I have heard Rabbis say that gentiles will learn the way of Torah and will, in messianic times, all come to know that Hashem is One, and his name is One. In the last few weeks I have compiled a list of the Rabbis which explain the messianic prophecies and always explain that the Jew is supposed to be a light to the nations. I have not heard the Rabbis teach that we must be secretive and hidden. I do agree that our Mesorah is something which we prize and only the Jew can understand many aspects of Torah. I believe that there are righteous gentiles who might actually be Jewish because of forced conversions in the past, some of these lost Jewish souls are looking for a way to re-connect to their heritage.

We don't agree on this topic. I have heard your opinion and cannot reconcile it with what I have learned from various Rabbis. If you could refer me to a respected Rabbis advice in these circumstances I would gladly review it and modify my approach.

Thank you,
muman613

[q_q_]

q_q_,

The wisdom I have is through learning.

I just want to be clear, incase people don't read your whole post. I wasn't referring to you having any wisdom.

I have heard Rabbis say that gentiles will learn the way of Torah and will, in messianic times, all come to know that Hashem is One, and his name is One.

a concept along similar lines- I wouldn't use your words- is in tenach.  (around jer 30, new cov)