Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on December 21, 2008, 12:57:06 AM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on December 19, 2008, 09:04:24 AM --- Why doesn't he bash islam? - He does disprove it also (easily), but like he said, he doesn't need and doesn't want to talk too harshly agains't islam because 1- Its not really popular for Jews to convert to it, and 2- he feels their is no need to needlessly put himself in danger because they are fanatics who kill people that speak harsh words agains't them. Christians on the other hand wont harm him, so he speaks his mind freely agains't that religion (which in a way is a complement becuase at least things can openly be said, as opposed to Islam whom you cant have open dialogue without being afraid of getting killed- like it used to be with the christians in europe).
--- End quote ---
I don't think that fear of Islamic fanatics should be taken into account.
Maimonides bashed Muhammad and Islam while living as a dhimmi under the Islamic Califate. If he wasn't afraid, neither should Rabbi Mizrahi be afraid.
--- End quote ---
Rambam wrote in a private letter sent to the Jews of Yemen about Islam. The liklyhood of someone reading it was slim. Putting a video online where everyone has access to it is different. - Anyway it is a personal choice. And like I said he does disprove their claims, but doesn't say things like mo was a pig or a child molester or something like that.
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
--- Quote from: New Yorker on December 21, 2008, 01:03:19 AM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on December 20, 2008, 06:33:25 PM ---
--- Quote from: New Yorker on December 20, 2008, 06:27:25 PM ---
Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile?
You have already done it, the first two-thirds of the Christian bible is the Torah, Genesis, the books of Moses, so if you are a Christian you've already technically accepted it. It is a non-issue, you are already there.
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no. When Jews say Torah, it means Written and Oral. It means the Torah belief in G-d(not a trinity).
And it means accepting, as the oral law says, that G-d gave 7 laws to Adam and Noah.
--- End quote ---
Whatever, for a Gentile, following the written law is enough, in practical terms how are they even going to have access to the Oral Law, they don't attend synagogue. And if they do, well, they might as well convert for all that trouble.
--- End quote ---
:laugh: that is too much. No one is requesting to follow the written law (and i'm sure you dont keep Shabb-t (if your a gentile).
q_q_:
--- Quote from: New Yorker on December 21, 2008, 01:03:19 AM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on December 20, 2008, 06:33:25 PM ---
--- Quote from: New Yorker on December 20, 2008, 06:27:25 PM ---
Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile?
You have already done it, the first two-thirds of the Christian bible is the Torah, Genesis, the books of Moses, so if you are a Christian you've already technically accepted it. It is a non-issue, you are already there.
--- End quote ---
no. When Jews say Torah, it means Written and Oral. It means the Torah belief in G-d(not a trinity).
And it means accepting, as the oral law says, that G-d gave 7 laws to Adam and Noah.
--- End quote ---
Whatever, for a Gentile, following the written law is enough, in practical terms how are they even going to have access to the Oral Law, they don't attend synagogue. And if they do, well, they might as well convert for all that trouble.
--- End quote ---
BELIEF in the truth of it. Not following it(if following it means following jewish law, and it usually does since that is 99% of it).
The Torah, says that jews shouild follow jewish law and gentiles, the noachide laws.
Obviously, ideally, not believing in non-torah doctrines. Having a Torah understanding of G-d and prophets, and , well, the Torah.
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on December 19, 2008, 09:27:50 AM ---And JNC- you say 1/3 of Torah or whatever. Let me ask you- do you think that a Rabbi who goes to speak to non-religious Jews should (after showing the proofs and proving the Torah to be 100% true) then go on to speak about Karbanot and building the Temple as opposed to Shabbat and modesty, etc? Speaking about the temple in a time when their is no temple is pointless in that type of croud becuase it would be preaching to do something that one cannot (and anyway sacrifices are mentioned, if you would only listin). After the proofs he speaks a lot about keeping Shabbat, about modesty, etc. Becuase 1- theat is the covenent between Israel and G-d and 2- it is something that people CAN actually do. It is 100% applicable today and should be done. - Getting into the topic of sacrifices and building the Temple is almost no point in that type of crowd because it will not change a thing in the way people behave right now. - On the other hand those who already keep Mitzvot- that we are able, then their are some groups that learn all different parts of the Talmud and each group gets into their specific topics.
Also wasn't it your Rav who himself said that things should be done a step at a time? Meaning that we all know that with 70% (I dont know whatever the amount is) of non-religious we wont build the Temple right away. Are you going to disown your Rav too becuase he talks about 1/ 613th at a time? As opposed to the attitude of all or nothing? - Anyway in what shiur will anyone get it all? Many Rabbis speak of different things, some focus on one topic and others on another, also the different shiurim themselves focus on different topics.
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I think that you have hit directly on my point. He teaches only what is applicable to Jews living in Exile. ie applicable today.
That is Galuth Judaism. I think that we must be striving for something greater. ie the other 413 commandments.
I know that a Jew living in Galuth needs Galuth Judaism to stay alive. I fully realize that.
But in Israel, the last thing that we need is Galuth Judaism. Galuth Judaism blinds us and makes us immobile. It makes us unable to conceive of what the entire Torah system actually is because we are so caught up in maintaining the customs that we were used to in Galuth. When my Rav put out a psak that all Jews in Israel no matter where their ancestors came from may eat Qitnioth on Pesah, he received death threats. That is Galuth Judaism, my friend. That is Galuth Judaism.
And also, I think if you asked Rav Mizrahi "If the Israeli Government changed it's mind tommorow and said 'If you want to build the Temple tommorow, go ahead', Should we go ahead and build it?", I guarrantee you that he would say "No!!"
So, it's not a question of how much he speaks or doesn't speak about the other 413 commandments, it's a matter of whether he uprooted and voided the other 413 commandments. That is the real issue.
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on December 21, 2008, 01:09:31 AM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on December 19, 2008, 09:27:50 AM ---And JNC- you say 1/3 of Torah or whatever. Let me ask you- do you think that a Rabbi who goes to speak to non-religious Jews should (after showing the proofs and proving the Torah to be 100% true) then go on to speak about Karbanot and building the Temple as opposed to Shabbat and modesty, etc? Speaking about the temple in a time when their is no temple is pointless in that type of croud becuase it would be preaching to do something that one cannot (and anyway sacrifices are mentioned, if you would only listin). After the proofs he speaks a lot about keeping Shabbat, about modesty, etc. Becuase 1- theat is the covenent between Israel and G-d and 2- it is something that people CAN actually do. It is 100% applicable today and should be done. - Getting into the topic of sacrifices and building the Temple is almost no point in that type of crowd because it will not change a thing in the way people behave right now. - On the other hand those who already keep Mitzvot- that we are able, then their are some groups that learn all different parts of the Talmud and each group gets into their specific topics.
Also wasn't it your Rav who himself said that things should be done a step at a time? Meaning that we all know that with 70% (I dont know whatever the amount is) of non-religious we wont build the Temple right away. Are you going to disown your Rav too becuase he talks about 1/ 613th at a time? As opposed to the attitude of all or nothing? - Anyway in what shiur will anyone get it all? Many Rabbis speak of different things, some focus on one topic and others on another, also the different shiurim themselves focus on different topics.
--- End quote ---
I think that you have hit directly on my point. He teaches only what is applicable to Jews living in Exile. ie applicable today.
That is Galuth Judaism. I think that we must be striving for something greater. ie the other 413 commandments.
I know that a Jew living in Galuth needs Galuth Judaism to stay alive. I fully realize that.
But in Israel, the last thing that we need is Galuth Judaism. Galuth Judaism blinds us and makes us immobile. It makes us unable to conceive of what the entire Torah system actually is because we are so caught up in maintaining the customs that we were used to in Galuth. When my Rav put out a psak that all Jews in Israel no matter where their ancestors came from may eat Qitnioth on Pesah, he received death threats. That is Galuth Judaism, my friend. That is Galuth Judaism.
And also, I think if you asked Rav Mizrahi "If the Israeli Government changed it's mind tommorow and said 'If you want to build the Temple tommorow, go ahead', Should we go ahead and build it?", I guarrantee you that he would say "No!!"
So, it's not a question of how much he speaks or doesn't speak about the other 413 commandments, it's a matter of whether he uprooted and voided the other 413 commandments. That is the real issue.
--- End quote ---
But that is making an assumption though. And their would have to be a plan made on how to build it. Given that, I dont know, if you want to you can always ask before making assumptions.
Anyway presenting for example his type of lectures (the one's aimed specifically to non-religious Jews- the majority) is the doorway that would only make what you are proposing possible. Why? because with the proofs, with Shabb-t, and encoragement to learn Toroh, then Jews could go deeper into the Torah and explore all the different parts of it (including sacrifices etc.) No one (or very very few) who do not believe in the Toroh as Divine will go and study on how to present sacrifices, what should a Kohen do, etc. At the very least people need a doorway, correct? We need the nation to connect with the Toroh, in a time when their are many in the world who deny it, and have doubts. Rav Mizrachi mainly focuses on eliminating the doubt in the Toroh and presenting it as the Divine book that it is.
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