Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Accepting the Torah, But Remaining a Gentile
muman613:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on December 21, 2008, 04:14:43 PM ---<snip>
AGAIN
Your spelling is a good thing.
I said that I respect you for your spelling, and more than that - regarding you being hard on spelling with me.
But you are not logical.. Infact, hence for example you apologise to me for being hard on spelling, after I told you that I respect you for it.
As I said,
"
If however you spot a spelling error, that would be impressive. You did -once-, and you're the only person to have done so, and credit to you for it, I respect you alot for that, but that doesn't make you logical.
"
And regarding this thread.. On the issue of zionism that we were talking about, you are right, as with almost any other religious jew here. I have no idea what reasons led you to the right conclusion, i'm sure it's entirely accidental. And I never said you are not involved in the core issues.
--- End quote ---
Hello,
I am referring to this reference you made to me:
--- Quote ---Of all people I don't know why you think i'm the right person to explain it to you.. are you sure about this? Ask muman, go round in circles with him, or just agree with each other, you'll love it, he'll love it, it'll be fantastic for both of you.
--- End quote ---
This is what makes me think you think I only want to see my own words... If I am mistaken I am sorry.
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
Interfaith
dialogue?
When we see the multitudes embracing interfaith dialogue, Jewish leaders clamoring to be
granted visits with the Pope, and the pervasive, positive sentiments expressed by both Jews and
Christians, it seems ‘sacrilegious’ to argue the sustained dialogue of two former adversaries
speaking peaceably. But as students of truth and reality, popularity is not our barometer of what is
G-d’s will; rather, G-d determines that.
the Torah’s position on “Interfaith Dialogue”
Let me first clarify matters: in no way should anyone presume that I mean to create a rift
between any peoples, or that I maintain any ill feelings towards any group. We are discussing
“religions” not adherents. People come and go, so what we wish to address are the ideas
JewishTlmes
25
r e t r o s p e c t i v e
themselves, the principles behind religions. Life is about searching for truth, even if it opposes
common beliefs. Additionally, as G-d created all men and women, we must duplicate G-d’s
kindness to all peoples. The greatest kindness is educating another person, and the greatest harm,
is to conceal the truth.
That being said, let us first determine our term “Interfaith Dialogue.” It refers to a forum in
which Jews and Christians seek to solidify friendships and remove strife; mutually accepting each
other’s practices and beliefs. However, we must ask, “Are their views accurate? Are Jews accurately
presenting Judaism to the Christians? Is the very presence of a Jew at such a dialogue
contradictory to Judaism? Is such a forum G-d’s will? Did G-d’s appointed Hebrew forefather
Abraham, engage in such dialogue, or did he in fact debate with other religions? Did not G-d
actually appoint Abraham as a leader ‘because’ of his very opposition to religions and idolatry,
creating a people who would follow Abraham’s way? This is expressly stated in Genesis, 18:19:
“For I know (him) that he will command his children and his household after him and they
will keep the way of G-d to do charity and justice.”
It is clear: Abraham led a distinct lifestyle, precisely defined as opposing idolatry, and teaching
against it. This is exactly why G-d chose Abraham and created a nation from him, “For they will
keep the way of G-d.” This means that Abraham partook of G-d’s way, while no one else did.
G-d approved of Abraham’s opposition to idolatry, and education of monotheism, as He says,
“For I know (him) that he will command his children and his household after him”.
Interfaith ‘Debate’
Abraham spent many years pondering the universe, arriving at profound ideas of philosophy,
science, monotheism, morality and justice. Since Abraham followed what G-d’s original plan was
for man, a life in pursuit of truth, G-d desired that the rest of the world benefit from Abraham’s
findings, and Abraham’s method of using reason to determine which religious ideas are true,
which are false, and to teach others of their error for their ultimate good. Therefore, G-d selected
Abraham to become a leader of a nation, a nation that would be provided with a system (the
Torah) for guiding man towards these truths. This Torah is not just for Jews, but all mankind. In
other words, G-d selected Abraham to establish and proliferate the Judaic system - one of
monotheism, which denounces idolatry, for the goodness of all humanity. Abraham did not
engage in interfaith dialogue, but in interfaith debate and education. Furthermore, Christianity
plagiarizes Judaism. We have no need for misinterpretations of the book, which we possess in its
uncorrupted, original form.
http://www.mesora.org/retro.pdf (p 24). (not that I necessarily agree with that site).
q_q_:
Tzvi,
contrary to that mesora link you copy/pasted from
which said-
--- Quote ---
(your mesora website link)
"That being said, let us first determine our term 'Interfaith Dialogue.' It refers to a forum in
which Jews and Christians seek to solidify friendships and remove strife; mutually accepting each
other’s practices and beliefs.... Abraham did not
engage in interfaith dialogue, but in interfaith debate and education.
"
--- End quote ---
JTF is not about "presenting judaism to christians"
Infact, Rabbi Moshe Feinstein ztl (who was widely considered to be the leading posek of the generation), a rabbi's rabbi, even The rabbi's rabbi's rabbi! The number 1 rabbi!
He had a very strict position on interfaith dialogue...
it was either banning it completely, or saying we can just work together socially.
he certainly didn't do debates.. and probably didn't even mention it because it's just not something jews do in our times, nor something jews have done in recent memory going back hundreds of years, it's not even a question.
And an interesting fact, is that in rabbi moshe feinstein's responsa, is a question from rabbi kahane , from when he was rabbi in a shul and a congregant had a wooden leg, and there was a technical question rabbi kahane asked him. It's mentioned in the vol 1 biography
You know what..
I am absolutely sick of this tzvi..
You constantly do this and i'e repeated myself enough times to you.
How many times do you have ot be told that we don't try to convert christians out of christianity..
I don't even know if you can read all of what you copy/paste..
You aren't let off the hook by copy/pasting a chunk and saying that it isn't necessarily your opinion. OVER and OVER again you have demonstrated that it is.. (just each time , more covertly)
You don't learn, you are intentionally obtuse. JTF does not try to get christians to leave christianity.
Say it.. SAY IT
you have to understand it eventually. you've been told enough times.
I don't even want to bother correcting you over this. I'm sick of it.. You never learn..
q_q_:
--- Quote from: muman613 on December 21, 2008, 04:48:50 PM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on December 21, 2008, 04:14:43 PM ---<snip>
AGAIN
Your spelling is a good thing.
I said that I respect you for your spelling, and more than that - regarding you being hard on spelling with me.
But you are not logical.. Infact, hence for example you apologise to me for being hard on spelling, after I told you that I respect you for it.
As I said,
"
If however you spot a spelling error, that would be impressive. You did -once-, and you're the only person to have done so, and credit to you for it, I respect you alot for that, but that doesn't make you logical.
"
And regarding this thread.. On the issue of zionism that we were talking about, you are right, as with almost any other religious jew here. I have no idea what reasons led you to the right conclusion, i'm sure it's entirely accidental. And I never said you are not involved in the core issues.
--- End quote ---
Hello,
I am referring to this reference you made to me:
--- Quote ---Of all people I don't know why you think i'm the right person to explain it to you.. are you sure about this? Ask muman, go round in circles with him, or just agree with each other, you'll love it, he'll love it, it'll be fantastic for both of you.
--- End quote ---
This is what makes me think you think I only want to see my own words... If I am mistaken I am sorry.
--- End quote ---
Muman, you were of course mistaken.. You certainly enjoy dialogue about aspects of judaism, it was that enjoyment that I was referring to. Not you seeing your own words and enjoying that. Infact I think you don't enjoy your own words that much..
Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks:
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on December 21, 2008, 12:40:47 PM ---You have no buisness in that type of discussion. And dwi gets emotional about every issue.
--- End quote ---
Wow, you really put me in my place. Sorry I didn't realize that only Torah giants like yourself and Rabbi Ovadia Yosef have the right to talk about such lofty, incomprehensible issues such as what the definition of Zionist is.
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