Author Topic: Where to start?  (Read 15673 times)

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Offline ✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ

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Where to start?
« on: December 18, 2008, 01:35:38 PM »
I'm a Hindu by birth, but i want to learn about the Torah,Tanach .. can some one please tell me which book should i look for to start with? Translation by which author.. and so on..

Thank You.

Offline q_q_

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2008, 01:50:49 PM »
I'm a Hindu by birth, but i want to learn about the Torah,Tanach .. can some one please tell me which book should i look for to start with? Translation by which author.. and so on..

Thank You.

well, whatever religion people follow is their business, we don't proselytize.   (jews sikhs and hindus are similar there)

thing is though, in addition to that, there is an issue teaching torah to non-jews..  And furthermore, teaching to one that is an idolator..(some or all might consider hinduism idolatry)

You can look into the noachide laws yourself.   Here are two books

http://www.amazon.com/Rainbow-Covenant-Torah-Seven-Universal/dp/0971938822
The Rainbow Covenant: Torah and the Seven Universal Laws
 
http://www.amazon.com/Path-Righteous-Gentile-Introduction-Children/dp/087306433X/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b
The Path of the Righteous Gentile: An Introduction to the Seven Laws of the Children of Noah (Hardcover)
by Chaim Clorfene (Author), Yaakov Rogalsky (Author)

Jewish belief is in the Torah, which says that jews should follow jewish law, and gentiles should follow the 7 noachide laws. Laws which we believe were given to Adam and Noah.

Offline ✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2008, 02:51:30 PM »
it would be difficult for me to get these books in India. I would prefer some thing in ebook format, sorry i forgot to mention this.

meanwhile i will look into noachide laws. btw it no problem, like many hindus i can meditate without concentrating on idols. Idols are just supplement or beautification factor for temples.

Online Zelhar

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2008, 02:57:51 PM »
If you want to dive into deep Jewish philosophy- "Guide to the perplexed" By Maimonides (Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon). 

Offline q_q_

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2008, 03:00:14 PM »
If you want to dive into deep Jewish philosophy- "Guide to the perplexed" By Maimonides (Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon). 

that is completely and ridiculously inappropriate

Offline q_q_

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2008, 03:06:06 PM »
it would be difficult for me to get these books in India. I would prefer some thing in ebook format, sorry i forgot to mention this.

meanwhile i will look into noachide laws. btw it no problem, like many hindus i can meditate without concentrating on idols. Idols are just supplement or beautification factor for temples.

you could google, though many websites are crazy.

and good ones would suggest one or both of those books anyway.
 

Offline Ulli

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2008, 03:12:10 PM »
If you want to dive into deep Jewish philosophy- "Guide to the perplexed" By Maimonides (Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon). 

I wanted to buy it too, but the price was over 150 $ in the German translation.

I will wait until I can get it used cheaper.

Ulli
"Cities run by progressives don't know how to police. ... Thirty cities went up last night, I went and looked at every one of them. Every one of them has a progressive Democratic mayor." Rudolph Giuliani

Online Zelhar

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2008, 03:16:03 PM »
If you want to dive into deep Jewish philosophy- "Guide to the perplexed" By Maimonides (Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon). 

that is completely and ridiculously inappropriate
Like using a canon to kill a housefly ?

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2008, 03:18:31 PM »
If you want to dive into deep Jewish philosophy- "Guide to the perplexed" By Maimonides (Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon). 

I wanted to buy it too, but the price was over 150 $ in the German translation.

I will wait until I can get it used cheaper.

Ulli


Its not needed at all. Not recommended either, for Jews or for gentiles. It's only for those who have been tainted by philopophy etc.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Online Zelhar

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2008, 03:29:56 PM »
If you want to dive into deep Jewish philosophy- "Guide to the perplexed" By Maimonides (Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon). 

I wanted to buy it too, but the price was over 150 $ in the German translation.

I will wait until I can get it used cheaper.

Ulli

There are free English translations on the Internet (may be there is a German translation too).

Offline muman613

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2008, 03:31:27 PM »
Hindu Zionist,

Please visit the website http://www.aish.com . It is an incredible site which contains much Jewish wisdom and insight. I am a supporter of the Aish HaTorah Yeshiva which teaches many thousands of students all around the world.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline q_q_

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2008, 12:30:22 AM »
Hindu Zionist,

Please visit the website http://www.aish.com . It is an incredible site which contains much Jewish wisdom and insight. I am a supporter of the Aish HaTorah Yeshiva which teaches many thousands of students all around the world.



AISH IS FOR JEWS

IT'S FOR JEWS. THEY TEACH THOUSANDS OF **JEWISH STUDENTS**

I know what has influenced you. You linked to a Rabbi lazer brody video and mention him alot. I reckon you listen to him alot.. But from the video I saw, it seems perhaps you have completely misunderstood him.

He talked there about preaching outwards about emunah. Because it is universal. He is not talking generally about teaching Torah to gentiles.

Offline muman613

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2008, 12:59:12 AM »
Hindu Zionist,

Please visit the website http://www.aish.com . It is an incredible site which contains much Jewish wisdom and insight. I am a supporter of the Aish HaTorah Yeshiva which teaches many thousands of students all around the world.



AISH IS FOR JEWS

IT'S FOR JEWS. THEY TEACH THOUSANDS OF **JEWISH STUDENTS**

I know what has influenced you. You linked to a Rabbi lazer brody video and mention him alot. I reckon you listen to him alot.. But from the video I saw, it seems perhaps you have completely misunderstood him.

He talked there about preaching outwards about emunah. Because it is universal. He is not talking generally about teaching Torah to gentiles.


I am not teaching to gentiles. I too watched that video last night and I do not misunderstand him. I do believe that the whole world will come to know Hashem. If there are souls who are seeking Hashem there is no reason why we should not allow them to pursue it. This doesnt take away from the Jewish mission which is to bring Hashem into the world and to take care of our people first. I do take care of Jewish causes first, and then I give to non-Jewish causes.

You heard Rabbi Brody say that a bunch of American Indians have bought copies of the "Garden of Emuna" which is a book about Torah and Jewish faith. I dont want to argue with you about this again. Please realize that my only point in pointing people towards Torah if they are interested is because I believe {and have heard Rabbis explain} that during the messianic age evil will be banished and all humanity will live in peace, not just the Jewish nation.

Please show me a law or halacha I am violating if I am doing so. If I am wrong I will apologize {as you know I have in the past}. I have read about the laws about not teaching Torah to a non-Jew. I don't believe that is what I am doing when I explain a Torah concept. I will consult with my Rabbi to determine if I am doing anything wrong.

PS: Should I have simply suggested that he investigate the Noachide covenant?

http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2006/08/the_garden_of_e.html
Quote
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Rav Shalom Arush has a unique gift of bringing Rebbe Nachman of Breslev's teachings to this generation's eye level. Yours truly has been granted the privilege of adapting and translating Rav Shalom's lectures and writings for the English-speaking public, as you've already seen and heard in our CDs.

The original Hebrew forerunner of The Garden of Emuna - B'Gan Ha'Emuna - has taken Israel by storm. Since it's debut a year ago, it has sold over 25,000 copies in Israel. Proportionately to America, that's like a multi-million-copy bestseller.

The Garden of Emuna is a practical guide to life. It's impossible to read it without feeling happier. Privately, I've been using advice from this book to help people for quite a while. Once you get your hands on this book, you won't know how you ever lived without it. No matter what your personal problem is, this book will solve it for you, G-d willing.

With Hashem's loving grace, The Garden of Emuna will be available directly online from here at the Beams after Rosh Hashanna.

Uman, G-d willing, will be a thrill this year. We're also eagerly awaiting Avraham Abutboul's new CD.

Hashem wants us to boogey - with Emuna, that's exactly what we're gonna do. You can't chase away darkness with a stick, but a little light illuminates the blackest night - don't ever forget that. I want you to remember one other thing - Hashem is crazy about you - Lazer's guarantee! Than in itself is a reason for you to get up out of your chair this very minute and to start dancing.
:dance:

Watch Rabbi Brody talk about themes of Garden of Emuna here:
http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/video_torah_english/
http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2008/11/garden-of-emuna-shiur-part-1.html
http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_beams/2008/11/garden-of-emuna-shiur-part-2.html

Watch Part 2 @ about 16:00-18:00 where he talks about spreading Hashem amongst all peoples of the world...
« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 01:51:58 AM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline q_q_

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2008, 01:28:24 AM »
Teaching is helping to learn..

You say "I am not teaching to gentiles", and then you point them to a site that teaches it. 

I suspect you are aware  it is wrong, or why deny teaching it to them?

There are issues involved.. If they show interest, then referring them to the noachide laws is a great idea.

Quote from: muman
PS: Should I have simply suggested that he investigate the Noachide covenant?

yes, that's the thing to do.

Offline muman613

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2008, 01:55:35 AM »
Teaching is helping to learn..

You say "I am not teaching to gentiles", and then you point them to a site that teaches it. 

I suspect you are aware  it is wrong, or why deny teaching it to them?

There are issues involved.. If they show interest, then referring them to the noachide laws is a great idea.

Quote from: muman
PS: Should I have simply suggested that he investigate the Noachide covenant?

yes, that's the thing to do.

Honestly I dont think I am violating any Jewish law but I do respect your opinion {despite our many issues}. I will research it because I am concerned when any Jew is upset about what I explain according to my understanding. I do seek to do good and follow the law so if I am doing wrong I will attempt to cease. But at this time I still do not feel as if I am really going about trying to make anyone convert to Judaism. But our books and our wisdom is available to those who are interested.

I am sorry if you think I am doing something wrong.

PS: I just tried a google search for 'Jewish Wisdom' and the Aish site came up as the second highest search result after www.jewish-wisdom.com .

PPS: I did find a Ask the Rabbi question which supports your position : http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/?id=1206

But this Rabbi is more lenient it seems: http://www.yoatzot.org/question.php?id=1270
Quote
Teaching a non-Jew

I wanted to tell my non-Jewish sister some basic ideas of taharat ha mishpachah. A Rav told me not to do so, as we must not teach Torah to non-Jews. But if she would use the Internet, she could learn everything by herself.
If teaching detailed laws in the internet is allowed, why may I not teach only basic ideas personally?

Dear questioner,

Thank you for your question.

The custom is that only detailed and formal instruction is prohibited when teaching a non-Jew.  You may relay some general and broad concepts that are illuminating regarding Judaism's attitude to the couple relationship.  It is true that she may turn to the internet and learn some details on site, but that is her decision and one that cannot be controlled.
{I just realized this question is not answered by a Rav, instead by Yoetzet}

I guess I will have to ask my Rabbi what his opinion is and trust in his opinion.

I am listening to this Shuir entitled 'Teaching Torah to Non-Jews' @ http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/722695/Rabbi_Hanan_Balk/Teaching_Torah_to_Non-Jews
« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 02:13:17 AM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline ✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2008, 02:07:56 AM »
Thank You muman, i will go through the links, i read it randomly now and it is very interesting. Isnt it a coincidence that i would be learning about Jewish/Judaism concepts during the week of Hanukkah.

being a hindu i know almost all concepts of the first dharmic religion in the world, and thus i want to very much learn about the first Abrahamic religion of the world. In pursuit of knowing the supreme truth. I hope with the knowledge you people are sharing with me, i have nothing to lose but only to gain and get closer to God.

Offline q_q_

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2008, 02:13:38 AM »
Teaching is helping to learn..

You say "I am not teaching to gentiles", and then you point them to a site that teaches it. 

I suspect you are aware  it is wrong, or why deny teaching it to them?

There are issues involved.. If they show interest, then referring them to the noachide laws is a great idea.

Quote from: muman
PS: Should I have simply suggested that he investigate the Noachide covenant?

yes, that's the thing to do.

Honestly I dont think I am violating any Jewish law but I do respect your opinion {despite our many issues}. I will research it because I am concerned when any Jew is upset about what I explain according to my understanding. I do seek to do good and follow the law so if I am doing wrong I will attempt to cease. But at this time I still do not feel as if I am really going about trying to make anyone convert to Judaism. But our books and our wisdom is available to those who are interested.

I am sorry if you think I am doing something wrong.

PS: I just tried a google search for 'Jewish Wisdom' and the Aish site came up as the second highest search result after www.jewish-wisdom.com .


Muman,

Look through Tractate Sanhedrin 55A-65A , a bit before and a bit after if you want too. It discusses these  things .. I have studied it around 6 years ago, but really the fact against teaching torah to gentiles is very well known..

It talks for example of differing opinions, one saying they can't study it at all, one saying that they can but only the portion related to the 7 laws.   Certainly not generally teaching torah like pointing them to Aish. There are big restrictions. And note that that tractate is talking about them studying it! So even for them to study it is forbidden to a noachide! that's before you've even taught it! So don't cause them to sin.

and in particular, we are not allowed to teach torah to idolators. perhaps not even any torah at all to them is allowed

It should be well known to you. When you saw that video of rabbi brody (whose mentor rabbi is rabbi arush) he was responding to criticism that he teaches torah to gentiles.. He said he teaches Emunah, which is universal, since belief in G-d is one of the noachide laws. That was his defence.  Doing so is still controversial, but even he there is saying he wouldn't generally teach torah to gentiles.

And I have already mentioned to you over and over again the other problems with doing so. Related to them mixing their beliefs with the Torah.

Offline דוד בן זאב אריה

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2008, 02:23:30 AM »
aish.com is one of the best also look at Chabad.org
David Ben Ze'ev Aryeh


Offline muman613

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2008, 02:37:34 AM »
q_q_,

I grant that you have good points here. But there are some opinions which allow teaching of Written Torah to non-Jews. The shuir I am listening to taught that since Hashem gave Torah to all the nations and only the Jews accepted it, therefore it must not be wrong to teach the written Torah to non-Jews.

I understand the concern about others mistaking someone who is not a Jew who is studying Torah for a real Jew and come to unfounded beliefs due to misunderstanding. This is a valid concern and I hope that I have not lead anyone astray in this manner.

I do know a number of converts to Orthodox Judaism and they are very observant and I am impressed at their level of Kashrut and Shabbat observance. I will surely ask my Rabbi more about this but he is generally lenient in these matters. I will also read the tractate you referred me.

Thank you and I hope to be more careful about what I discuss. One last defense of my position though... I learned from this shuir that if the intended audience is Jews in a 'Jewish forum' and I am discussing Torah and non-Jews should also be listening I am not transgressing this prohibition.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2008, 02:48:50 AM »
Interesting... Listen to this shuir at 29:00 and you will hear Rambams opinion that it is OK to teach Torah to Christians but not to Muslims.

http://download.yutorah.org/2008/1067/722695/Teaching%20Torah%20to%20Non%2DJews.MP3

This is very interesting stuff...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline q_q_

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2008, 02:49:33 AM »
there are opinions of varying strictness, and to be safe one should err on the side of strictness. It isn't hard to keep to the stricter opinions here! The various opinions are in the gemara. It's not just any old rabbi deciding to be stricter..

Aish for example, certainly are careful only to target jews.  hence for example in their counter-missionary material, they stress it is counter-missionary. And obviously their trips are only for jews.

The thing about the messianic age is spoken of in jeremiah around ch30 and is a covenant G-d makes with people in their hearts.  It's miraculous. Rather like rabbi brody described.  And obviously if it's against halacha to teach torah to gentiles, you don't do it.  That's a general rule not teaching it to them.. There are restrictions and as you have seen, differing opinions in the gemara about how tight the restrictions are.

I think it's easy to be strict with this one.  Certainly stricter than you have been!  Aish certainly would be - and you referred a gentile there.

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2008, 02:51:16 AM »
there are opinions of varying strictness, and to be safe one should err on the side of strictness. It isn't hard to keep to the stricter opinions here! The various opinions are in the gemara. It's not just any old rabbi deciding to be stricter..

Aish for example, certainly are careful only to target jews.  hence for example in their counter-missionary material, they stress it is counter-missionary. And obviously their trips are only for jews.

The thing about the messianic age is spoken of in jeremiah around ch30 and is a covenant G-d makes with people in their hearts.  It's miraculous. Rather like rabbi brody described.  And obviously if it's against halacha to teach torah to gentiles, you don't do it.  That's a general rule not teaching it to them.. There are restrictions and as you have seen, differing opinions in the gemara about how tight the restrictions are.

I think it's easy to be strict with this one.  Certainly stricter than you have been!  Aish certainly would be - and you referred a gentile there.

I am hearing you...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline q_q_

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2008, 02:54:15 AM »
Interesting... Listen to this shuir at 29:00 and you will hear Rambams opinion that it is OK to teach Torah to Christians but not to Muslims.

http://download.yutorah.org/2008/1067/722695/Teaching%20Torah%20to%20Non%2DJews.MP3

This is very interesting stuff...


must be a good shiur.

yes, this has been mentioned in a previous thread, it was mentioned by Lisa.
RAMBAM wrote that in a letter.

It brings up the question.. How can the RAMBAM be so lenient here when in his earlier work the mishneh torah, he said christianity is idolatry. We know it's forbidden to teach torah to idolators..  One answer is that the RAMBAM changed his mind about christianity.

Hindu Zionist , is a hindu.. And I'm sure that most or all would consider hinduism to be idolatry.

The RAMBAM's opinion there is very strange.. hard to source in the talmud. Very controversial.

And the reason why the RAMBAM (taking a VERY lenient opinion) made the allowance for christianity and not islam, was that christians believe the bible.
Muslims don't.. And of course hindus don't either.  
(muslims nowadays and in RAMBAM's time made the claim that the bible was corrupted.. so maybe that's why he said specifically not teaching muslims)

I should add and this is VERY important.

We know in our times from experience that teaching torah to christians is a very bad idea.  They mix it in with their beliefs.. and we get messianic christianity.  They go to sites made eg by conservative "rabbis" and learn how to lein and all sorts of things. Their pastors call themselves rabbis, and they draw jews in, it's a massive problem.


Offline q_q_

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2008, 06:29:39 PM »
<snip>

I am hearing you...



It's about bloody time..  I've told you almost a dozen times in previous threads.

The difference here is that this time you took notice, asked for a source, looked around,  and found a YU shiur..

Why is that?  Did you have an extra cup of coffee?

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