Author Topic: Where to start?  (Read 24798 times)

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Offline muman613

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2008, 10:15:09 PM »
<snip>

I am hearing you...



It's about bloody time..  I've told you almost a dozen times in previous threads.

The difference here is that this time you took notice, asked for a source, looked around,  and found a YU shiur..

Why is that?  Did you have an extra cup of coffee?

q_q_,

Why is it? It is because I am always looking for the truth. Just because I have investigated this issue doesn't mean I agree with you fully in your understanding. I just understand that there are things which are permitted and things which are not. I will be more careful in what I explain.

In a forum where the audience is expected to be mostly Jews then I am permitted to delve into deeper sources than just the Chumash. When the audience is mostly non-Jewish then I should only talk about Pshat which is the simple understanding of the material. I believe I understand this now. For that I thank you.

But I hope you don't use this against me in any way. You do receive some 'reward' for rebuking me and getting me to learn. I do respect a teacher but I also have problems with the way you come across to me sometimes. For instance your comment "Did you have an extra cup of coffee". I am not your adversary and sometimes I feel like you want to continue an adversarial relationship with me.

Thank you,
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2008, 10:32:40 PM »
Watch the video " Amazing New Movie IN ENGLISH" from- http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/ (second to last video). And qq it is allowed.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2008, 10:43:42 PM »
Also -HZ- maybe you would like to take a look at this channel-

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=F47B1048EA6EFF6B
Playlist: Obligations of the Nations 
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline q_q_

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2008, 12:27:36 AM »
Watch the video " Amazing New Movie IN ENGLISH" from- http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/ (second to last video). And qq it is allowed.

It is not teaching Torah to gentiles..

That is proselytizing - probably not halachically forbidden, jews did it 2000 years ago, and we got christianity for our trouble(and alot of dead jews because of it. It took christians 2000 years to become domesticated). And that's how we got islam too.  (so maybe all the damage has been done already, there isn't much chance we'll be getting another one.. though maybe it was punishment  proselytizing .  On the plus side we may get complete noachides but remember christianity and islam )

Anyhow..Rabbi Mizrachi is not proselytizing either. You said yourself that the christian he debated was a missionary knocking on doors e.t.c.


That video you linked to there is FOR JEWS. (to tell jews that judaism is true and other religions are wrong)

If you are showing that to gentiles..
That is telling christians and gentiles of other religions that there religion is wrong..  That is bashing christianity and islam and the rest..

That is not what JTF is about.. And infact it's not what any organisation that touches other rleigions is about.

You shouldn't bash them in bad times because it makes things more dangerous.
And you shouldn't bash them in good times because you are rewarding good with bad..

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2008, 12:45:22 AM »
qq- no. This particular person (Hindu Zionist) is asking to learn about Judaism. And where to start.
 
  If you have the time look at this short clip bringing sources - About Jews incouraging the nations to keep the 7 laws (also about NOT discouraging converts, teaching those who ask and want to get closer to G-d.) - Material mainly from the Rambam.
 
 
 
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline q_q_

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2008, 12:47:49 AM »
qq- no. This particular person (Hindu Zionist) is asking to learn about Judaism.
 
  If you have the time look at this short clip bringing sources - About Jews incouraging the nations to keep the 7 laws (also about NOT discouraging converts, teaching those who ask and want to get closer to G-d.) - Material mainly from the Rambam.
 
 
 

people like saying ' q_q_: "no" ' because it looks good. As if you've completely refuted the great q_q_.

Actually,

I was referring to the clip you posted before , the rabbi mizrachi video you posted. That was deleted.

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2008, 01:00:41 AM »
It's still up and was not deleted. And I know you were referring to the Rav Mizrachi Shlita video. And the point of the last video I posted (the short one) is a video of a Jew (a convert by the way) explaining from the Rambam about teaching non-Jews Toroh if they want to get closer to G-d and expecially ask for it. (Also as a side note about teaching 7 Mitzvot Bnai Noach.  - The point of me posting it is for you to see that the earlier video I posted is okay and not only that but good to show even a non-Jew (+ the video is completly about general belief in G-d, and after requested (to learn about Judaism)it was provided).
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline q_q_

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2008, 01:32:55 AM »
It's still up and was not deleted. And I know you were referring to the Rav Mizrachi Shlita video. And the point of the last video I posted (the short one) is a video of a Jew (a convert by the way) explaining from the Rambam about teaching non-Jews Toroh if they want to get closer to G-d and expecially ask for it. (Also as a side note about teaching 7 Mitzvot Bnai Noach.  - The point of me posting it is for you to see that the earlier video I posted is okay and not only that but good to show even a non-Jew (+ the video is completly about general belief in G-d, and after requested (to learn about Judaism)it was provided).

I see it's there now.. So it's possible it was put back, along with your post, and it's possible I was seeing things, or not seeing things.

I don't think that a non-jew that calls himself a christian or hindu or muslim or whatever.. Clearly is. And that is very different to a non-jew that has given up non-torah doctrines and thus truly seeks Torah.

Every non-jew nowadays wants to know about all sorts of religions. This is the multicultural society we live in today. It's not that they are truly "seeking torah". a)they have thier religion b)they aren't seeking it because they believe in it.. it's not really seeking it.     Sure, point thenm to the noachide laws.  I did write some reasons there not to bash their religions.. That rabbi mizrachi video was for a jewish audience, and suitable for truly noachide audience too).

I will look at that new video you posted

Offline ✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2008, 09:30:12 AM »
qq- no. This particular person (Hindu Zionist) is asking to learn about Judaism. And where to start.
 
  If you have the time look at this short clip bringing sources - About Jews incouraging the nations to keep the 7 laws (also about NOT discouraging converts, teaching those who ask and want to get closer to G-d.) - Material mainly from the Rambam.
 
 
 
thank you for the links to wonderful videos, i will surely look into it.

Offline ✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2008, 09:33:58 AM »
What if Hindu Zionist were to read the book "Judaism For Dummies?"

http://www.amazon.com/Judaism-Dummies-Ted-Falcon/dp/0764552996

There's also "The Complete Idiot's Guide To Judaism."

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Idiots-Guide-Understanding-Judaism/dp/159257131X/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_k2a_3_txt/179-1484663-3532726?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-2&pf_rd_r=10VP48SS3FWE3Z66Q01M&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=304485601&pf_rd_i=0764552996




i'm got this book off the shelf... if i'm not able to understand any concept,i would ask the questions here. q_q i hope you dont mind.

Offline q_q_

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2008, 02:13:14 PM »
What if Hindu Zionist were to read the book "Judaism For Dummies?"

http://www.amazon.com/Judaism-Dummies-Ted-Falcon/dp/0764552996

There's also "The Complete Idiot's Guide To Judaism."

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Idiots-Guide-Understanding-Judaism/dp/159257131X/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_k2a_3_txt/179-1484663-3532726?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-2&pf_rd_r=10VP48SS3FWE3Z66Q01M&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=304485601&pf_rd_i=0764552996



i'm got this book off the shelf... if i'm not able to understand any concept,i would ask the questions here. q_q i hope you dont mind.

I would be suspicious of a book about judaism by "Nicholas"!! How about a book by Santa Claus..  ;-)
Nicholas is a very christian name .  Santa Claus, also known as Saint Nicholas
Having no book is better than having an inaccurate one.  There are one or two jews called paul peter or nicholas, but they don't usually write books on judaism, not one that is likely to be much good anyway.

Lisa is quite sensible, and certainly is never crazy.

The books Lisa recommended are good ones.  I have also read that the second one is good   ("The Complete Idiot's Guide To Judaism." by Rabbi Benjamin Blech)

The problem isn't really anything you are doing, it's that some people here are referring you to things that are inappropriate(for reasons mentioned). Things that are intended for jews..
« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 02:50:06 PM by q_q_ »

Online Zelhar

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2008, 03:30:51 PM »
Quote
Lisa is quite sensible, and certainly is never crazy.

Dude, you should really tune up your compliment scale, I mean, seriously....  :o

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2008, 06:23:13 PM »
I would say just to start with reading the Tanach.

Offline q_q_

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2008, 09:38:14 PM »
Quote
Lisa is quite sensible, and certainly is never crazy.

Dude, you should really tune up your compliment scale, I mean, seriously....  :o

I don't compliment people.  It was more a statement about others here(including you), that you don't reach that criteria(on this subject).

I should point out though, your suggestion to him was so crazy , it was -almost- too crazy to be dangerous. And at least in your case, you don't normally go around giving advice to people on this subject, and you don't have any particularly strange qualities as others do, so you don't turn out to be a repeat offender.

Offline muman613

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2008, 09:47:04 PM »
Quote
Lisa is quite sensible, and certainly is never crazy.

Dude, you should really tune up your compliment scale, I mean, seriously....  :o

I don't compliment people.  It was more a statement about others here(including you), that you don't reach that criteria(on this subject).

I should point out though, your suggestion to him was so crazy , it was -almost- too crazy to be dangerous. And at least in your case, you don't normally go around giving advice to people on this subject, and you don't have any particularly strange qualities as others do, so you don't turn out to be a repeat offender.

Yes q_q_ is the judge and jury of all JTF members. His ego is beyond calculation...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline q_q_

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2008, 10:23:41 PM »
Quote
Lisa is quite sensible, and certainly is never crazy.

Dude, you should really tune up your compliment scale, I mean, seriously....  :o

I don't compliment people.  It was more a statement about others here(including you), that you don't reach that criteria(on this subject).

I should point out though, your suggestion to him was so crazy , it was -almost- too crazy to be dangerous. And at least in your case, you don't normally go around giving advice to people on this subject, and you don't have any particularly strange qualities as others do, so you don't turn out to be a repeat offender.

Yes q_q_ is the judge and jury of all JTF members. His ego is beyond calculation...



beyond your calculations perhaps.

talking of ego though
"muman613  - MUMAN LIVES! 'MORE THAN HUMAN'"

!!!

Offline ✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2008, 12:16:16 AM »
What if Hindu Zionist were to read the book "Judaism For Dummies?"

http://www.amazon.com/Judaism-Dummies-Ted-Falcon/dp/0764552996

There's also "The Complete Idiot's Guide To Judaism."

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Idiots-Guide-Understanding-Judaism/dp/159257131X/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_k2a_3_txt/179-1484663-3532726?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-2&pf_rd_r=10VP48SS3FWE3Z66Q01M&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=304485601&pf_rd_i=0764552996



i'm got this book off the shelf... if i'm not able to understand any concept,i would ask the questions here. q_q i hope you dont mind.

I would be suspicious of a book about judaism by "Nicholas"!! How about a book by Santa Claus..  ;-)
Nicholas is a very christian name .  Santa Claus, also known as Saint Nicholas
Having no book is better than having an inaccurate one.  There are one or two jews called paul peter or nicholas, but they don't usually write books on judaism, not one that is likely to be much good anyway.


Lisa is quite sensible, and certainly is never crazy.

The books Lisa recommended are good ones.  I have also read that the second one is good   ("The Complete Idiot's Guide To Judaism." by Rabbi Benjamin Blech)

The problem isn't really anything you are doing, it's that some people here are referring you to things that are inappropriate(for reasons mentioned). Things that are intended for jews..

hmm Interesting about that Nicholas thing. I will be careful with this book. and yes i think i should buy those book Lisa mentioned.

q_q, i have a feeling that the holy Jewish books are for whole humanity and not just for jews to refer. Also i do not get offended if there is written anything about other religions being false and Judaism being the only True one. Also i do not mind if there is written anything against idolators. Because, Hinduism never mentions it self to be a true religion, it asks us to try to get knowledge to know the truth. secondly, It seems we are idolators but we are not.The biggest idolators are muslims. They kiss and touch the kabba stone. We do not touch or kiss any of our idols. Idols are like beautification factor for our temples. Just like we have statues of patriotic leaders in our countries and we like to pay them respects occasionally on their death or birth anniversary.. Infact if you want more information i can show how Hindus themself destroy idols every year. Only if any one wishes to know about this i will post.As i do not wish to mention anything about Hindusim on a Jewish forum unless anyone wishes to know.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 12:22:14 AM by Hindu Zionist »

Offline q_q_

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2008, 01:09:02 AM »
<snip>
hmm Interesting about that Nicholas thing. I will be careful with this book. and yes i think i should buy those book Lisa mentioned.

q_q, i have a feeling that the holy Jewish books are for whole humanity and not just for jews to refer. Also i do not get offended if there is written anything about other religions being false and Judaism being the only True one. Also i do not mind if there is written anything against idolators. Because, Hinduism never mentions it self to be a true religion, it asks us to try to get knowledge to know the truth. secondly, It seems we are idolators but we are not.The biggest idolators are muslims. They kiss and touch the kabba stone. We do not touch or kiss any of our idols. Idols are like beautification factor for our temples. Just like we have statues of patriotic leaders in our countries and we like to pay them respects occasionally on their death or birth anniversary.. Infact if you want more information i can show how Hindus themself destroy idols every year. Only if any one wishes to know about this i will post.As i do not wish to mention anything about Hindusim on a Jewish forum unless anyone wishes to know.

According to jewish beliefs,  non-jews are obliged to follow the 7 noachide laws.  Judaism was given to the jewish people and not the entire world. And our holy books are our inheritance and not that of other peoples.

According to one's personal preferences, one may feel that all books are for the whole world But judaism doesn't work like that., it has a legal system that can't be compromized by one's own personal philosophy.

And there are other practical reasons why it's not very good when people of other religions read jewish holy books. They read their non-jewish beliefs into them, and pervert them.  This is what christian missionaries do, and this is what muslims do.  Now, it's true that hindus would probably not try to convert jews, but it's still not good. 

Infact, jews should be aware, that there are left wing jews that go to places like india looking for enlightenment, most of them think they know judaism(thanks to reform), but they don't, and they may be drawn to a hinduism with a few jewish symbols, and you may end up with a kind of "jews for [insert hindu god here]".    "Messianic congregations"(christianity with jewish symbols), are helped and even inspired, by jews that go teaching judaism to christians. They don't all target jews, but some branches do, and they would attract some jews.

Offline ✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2008, 01:30:39 AM »
<snip>
hmm Interesting about that Nicholas thing. I will be careful with this book. and yes i think i should buy those book Lisa mentioned.

q_q, i have a feeling that the holy Jewish books are for whole humanity and not just for jews to refer. Also i do not get offended if there is written anything about other religions being false and Judaism being the only True one. Also i do not mind if there is written anything against idolators. Because, Hinduism never mentions it self to be a true religion, it asks us to try to get knowledge to know the truth. secondly, It seems we are idolators but we are not.The biggest idolators are muslims. They kiss and touch the kabba stone. We do not touch or kiss any of our idols. Idols are like beautification factor for our temples. Just like we have statues of patriotic leaders in our countries and we like to pay them respects occasionally on their death or birth anniversary.. Infact if you want more information i can show how Hindus themself destroy idols every year. Only if any one wishes to know about this i will post.As i do not wish to mention anything about Hindusim on a Jewish forum unless anyone wishes to know.

According to jewish beliefs,  non-jews are obliged to follow the 7 noachide laws.  Judaism was given to the jewish people and not the entire world. And our holy books are our inheritance and not that of other peoples.

According to one's personal preferences, one may feel that all books are for the whole world But judaism doesn't work like that., it has a legal system that can't be compromized by one's own personal philosophy.

And there are other practical reasons why it's not very good when people of other religions read jewish holy books. They read their non-jewish beliefs into them, and pervert them.  This is what christian missionaries do, and this is what muslims do.  Now, it's true that hindus would probably not try to convert jews, but it's still not good. 

Infact, jews should be aware, that there are left wing jews that go to places like india looking for enlightenment, most of them think they know judaism(thanks to reform), but they don't, and they may be drawn to a hinduism with a few jewish symbols, and you may end up with a kind of "jews for [insert hindu G-d here]".    "Messianic congregations"(christianity with jewish symbols), are helped and even inspired, by jews that go teaching judaism to christians. They don't all target jews, but some branches do, and they would attract some jews.
sounds logical, although q_q dont you think that because Judaism isnt much open to non-Jew today the population has gone down? Cause i think if it were open to everyone then many non-Jews would have taken to Judaism. This is actually the problem with Hinduism too, there is no missionizing.

And yes,There should be no interference between two religions. And i do accept your thoughts about this. That we might some how corrupt the purity of the Holy Book by our own principles.

Offline muman613

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #44 on: December 23, 2008, 02:44:54 AM »
Hindu Zionist,

The only Jewish way to be able to study Judaism is to ask a Rabbi to convert you. In our faith one must be taught authentic Torah from a Rabbi who has studied a tradition and texts which have been handed down from generation to generation. This is called Mesorah in hebrew.

To study on your own will not give you an authentic understanding of our 'religion'. Judaism is more than just a religion, it is a complete system of thinking and understanding our relationship to the universe. Sure you can pick up a concept here or there but without a holistic understanding you are really just shooting in the dark.

I originally suggested some websites which are intended for Jewish audiences. You can read any book which talks about the Jewish people but we really should not 'teach' you our tradition because as q_q_ has said, it was given to us because we chose to keep it.

If your heart is truly one seeking truth I am sure you will continue to seek understanding. Everyone who looks for the absolute universal truth always finds resistance yet keeps asking questions. I hope you will find what you are looking for.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline q_q_

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #45 on: December 23, 2008, 02:56:37 AM »
<snip>
sounds logical, although q_q dont you think that because Judaism isnt much open to non-Jew today the population has gone down? Cause i think if it were open to everyone then many non-Jews would have taken to Judaism. This is actually the problem with Hinduism too, there is no missionizing.

And yes,There should be no interference between two religions. And i do accept your thoughts about this. That we might some how corrupt the purity of the Holy Book by our own principles.

I am glad you see the wisdom or logic in the reason. You mention jewish population..

There is an issue with the jewish population going down, but there is a simpler answer and we don't need to missionize to solve it..

The right wing Orthodox jewish community is growing really fast. They have lots of children.

The liberal leftist jewish community is shrinking. They have "2.4" or less children, and assimilate, marry out, e.t.c.

We don't need to be a massive population..

We are supposed to be a nation amongst the nations.  

Now, although I have mentioned wise reasons for us not missionizing.. reasons that apply today.


There is also a historical aspect to it though, of why we didn't missionize for 2000 years.   (and it has probably had a psycholoiglca affect)
It is an aside. Because I have already mentioned the reasons why we don't today.. and why we shouldn't..

But historically..

I have heard that in earlier times in history, like prior to christianity, there was alot of missionizing .. (though no doubt if you go back a bit further, to the ancient greeks persecuting us, jews were murdered for practicing judaism, jews practiced it in secret and so certainly no missionizing there!)

The jewish courts nowadays test candidates for sincerity of willingness to convert.. putting them off.  I have heard that that may not have always been the case.. and at one point there were many converts.

There is no question that under christian and muslim persecution, and in order to remain in the good books of the host countries we lived in during exile, we couldn't preach.  Jews were quiet, fearful for their lives. Infact, Christians would call jews into public debates, and not give the jew the right to free speech. (we still never lost, and infact the brilliant rabbi moshe ben nachman won so clearly, that he was rewarded as the winner by the -christian- king of spain, before he had to flee spain)


The following does not apply to hinduism, but there is some essential history here.  I'm sure you'll sympathise with the jewish side here, particularly the christian missionary issue..

I hope the following sentence isn't too offensive to christians, but it's essential to my point.
From a jewish (not christian) perspective, what happened was that people liked some ideas of judaism but not the law, so they removed that bit, and we got Christianity.  

It didn't work out well for jews.  We were persecuted for 2000 years.  Persecution against jews by christians was so terrible that jews were alot better off -under- the muslims.  It was a complete tragedy.  Only now has christianity become nice again (and in some circles they are only nice to convert us, as if they have one commandment "get the jew").

Jews under christianity were in such hell, that by comparison, living under muslims was freedom!  (at the worst times, imagine them holding the cross at jews chanting from the new testament as they burnt jews in fire.. or as jews jumped into the fire rather than convert)

This 2000 year historical reality is likely why the situation is as it is today.. But as you noticed, there is great wisdom in not preaching .. even today when the ruling powers are lenient.

Nowadays we still suffer from people that happily teach judaism to every christians willing to listen. They don't persecute us, but we get judaized christianity which can win jews over.  It must be pointed out though, that as bad as todays christian missionaries are.  As rabbi Kahane said(in a speech that moved many in his audience to tears), the biggest problem jews face, is not jews for jesus, it's jews for nothing.
And that's another point there. the worst thing is jews that abandon judaism, because that is a really big sin, and so that is a priority.

Preaching of the 7 noachide laws isn't such a problem, and you ask about judaism and should be told about those.  Generally though, I think that if gentiles are nice and they have their own religion then they deserve respect, in that if they haven't asked about it,  I wouldn't preach anything to them.
This is the case with JTF.. We have many good christians.. a good hindu (you. Maybe more! I don't know). Some good atheists perhaps too - that don't preach their atheism!  If they ask, then I would explain the 7 noachide laws..    Even bits of judaism here and there, if they ask.   But some of the unwise here just use things as a springboard to teach non-jews as if they are jews, like they hear something from a rabbi - or jewish website- and look for excuses to teach it to the world, which the rabbi never intended. We learn that the Torah is our inheritance and our betrothed, and that's G-d's will. I have read once in a commentary, that to teach it to gentiles would be like causing them to commit theft and adultary. There are certainly discussions of restrictions.. And a concept that we are a nation amongst nations, not trying to become a one world religion. 2 perhaps judaism and the 7 noachide laws.. But but we don't even -push- the latter onto people. And we don't teach Torah to gentiles even if they ask - ther are at least restrictions that are debated, and it's safer for us to be strict. It's not harming us. It would harm us if we disobey jewish law.


It may well be that historically it went wrong as punishment for preaching to gentiles..  Now we are more cautious. I have mentioned reasons that apply even without the historical  persecution.   Our books are quite clear that we shouldn't. So maybe historically when we did, we were punished. And are today too.

Offline muman613

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #46 on: December 23, 2008, 03:53:49 AM »
Remember, let no 'one' Jew speak for all Jews. What you have heard here is the opinions of several Jews of varying levels of understanding. I think my advice of seeking a Rabbi to ask questions of is the best course. It is difficult to form an opinion of the Jewish people from a forum like this.

Im sure a Chabad Rabbi would not have any problem talking with you about your interest.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline q_q_

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #47 on: December 23, 2008, 04:25:26 AM »
Remember, let no 'one' Jew speak for all Jews. What you have heard here is the opinions of several Jews of varying levels of understanding. I think my advice of seeking a Rabbi to ask questions of is the best course. It is difficult to form an opinion of the Jewish people from a forum like this.

Im sure a Chabad Rabbi would not have any problem talking with you about your interest.


I don't think rabbis - chabad or otherwise would appreciate curious non-jews contacting them to learn about judaism. That is not what rabbis are for. (even if they are polite about it).   

Smart jews understand that.

Remember that even non-jews that want to convert are discouraged by jewish courts.

For example the chabad in india are there to serve jews.

A slight exception is that there are some chabad places that cater well to real noachide communities(gentiles that believe the torah and follow the 7 laws. Of course, they are not there to study Torah in depth) .   

And the chabad in the UK is quite smart, in that it runs a drugs support helpline which helps non-jews.  The british govt really likes them.. And in this manner chabad also don't need to rely on the big left wing jewish organisations to have a listening ear from a govt minister.  Chabad actually got a mention a number of years ago by a former leader of the opposition, the then Conservative party leader William Hague, in his party's pamphlet manifesto. They go around the streets of london talking to drug addicts helping them off drugs, and don't preach religion to them at all.  They get mistreated by these drugees initially but in the end they and their work is appreciated , which is good for them and for jews and is a kiddush hashem.  That's their work with non-jews!
« Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 07:38:17 AM by q_q_ »

Offline muman613

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #48 on: December 23, 2008, 12:23:20 PM »
If a person is honestly seeking to be close to Hashem and has a true interest in conversion there is no problem with a person talking to a Rabbi about it. As I have said before I know several people who have gone through the Orthodox conversion process and are recognized as fully converted Orthodox Jews today.

Although I know what you are talking about I disagree that there is no point in talking to Rabbi about this. Only a person talking face to face can recommend what someones spiritual path should be. If the Chabad rabbi feels this person should go down the Noachide path they will recommend that. If the person seems more inclined to convert they will recommend that.

I know my Chabad Rabbis definately give time to non-Jews to discuss these kinds of issues. Maybe they are different over there in UK.


You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #49 on: December 23, 2008, 05:09:16 PM »
If a person is honestly seeking to be close to Hashem and has a true interest in conversion there is no problem with a person talking to a Rabbi about it. As I have said before I know several people who have gone through the Orthodox conversion process and are recognized as fully converted Orthodox Jews today.

Although I know what you are talking about I disagree that there is no point in talking to Rabbi about this. Only a person talking face to face can recommend what someones spiritual path should be. If the Chabad rabbi feels this person should go down the Noachide path they will recommend that. If the person seems more inclined to convert they will recommend that.

I know my Chabad Rabbis definately give time to non-Jews to discuss these kinds of issues. Maybe they are different over there in UK.


This non-jew is a proud(in a good way) believing follower of a religion other than judaism.

That is not somebody thinking of dropping his religion either for converting, or to become a proper noachide.

You like to talk in funny language rather than use plain language, when you say "honestly seeking to be close to Hashem".   I happen to know what you -mean-, and why you say it, but it's not a clever reason.  And let's be clear.  Jews (Rabbis or not) don't look for that, whatever that means. They don't say oh great a visit from a mother teresa type(honest, G-d fearing, great).  They would be "interested" in a non-jew that wants to convert, or one that wants to become a proper noachide. But not interested in just any honest G-d seeking non-jew, there are honest G-d seeking christians and hindus and so on.