Author Topic: Where to start?  (Read 15676 times)

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Offline Lisa

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #50 on: December 23, 2008, 05:44:56 PM »
Muman, it's a little soon to talk about anyone converting to Judaism.  Hindu Zionist just expressed some interest in learning more about Judaism. 

I think he should try and find the books I recommended to start out.  If he has any questions, he can ask Chaim in Ask JTF, or he can direct his post to the rest of us here.  Also, I just found out that Dennis Prager has a CD about Judaism for non-Jews.  Here's a link to buy it:

http://stores.dennisprager.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=R059&Category_Code=01C&Product_Count=17

Now Dennis Prager is not a rabbi.  So I don't know that it would count as teaching the Torah to non-Jews.  Prager is a smart, right leaning Jew (not nearly as right wing as us JTF'ers) who writes interesting columns. 


Offline q_q_

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #51 on: December 23, 2008, 06:03:59 PM »
Lisa- the only time Dennis Prager didn't look smart was when he was debating Kahane!

People calling in were many of his regular listeners and said they were disappointed with Prager avoiding questions and not being honest.
Which is percisely what Rabbi Kahane said he was doing..

He does say some very silly things.. There is no Judaism for non-jews..
He would probably try to apply jewish themes and make some nonsense.

I don't think a book on judaism by Dennis Prager is reliable..  He doesn't believe that the Torah was given at Sinai.

He has his strengths, but judaism isn't one of them. He is just good at exposing anti-semites - be they leftists or holocaust deniers.

Hindu Zionist doesn't need lots of books. The one you recommended earlier, the idiot guide by Rabbi Blech, has been highly praised, they say to ignore the fact that the title says "idiot"!

Offline Lisa

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #52 on: December 23, 2008, 06:52:51 PM »
Fair enough q_q.  However, sometimes his columns can be interesting. 

Offline ✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #53 on: December 23, 2008, 11:57:15 PM »
thank you everyone for helping me out.

It will take me 2-3 weeks before i am able to comment anything

One question, i found Zohar very very interesting, can i start reading from this?

Offline muman613

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #54 on: December 24, 2008, 12:05:59 AM »
thank you everyone for helping me out.

It will take me 2-3 weeks before i am able to comment anything

One question, i found Zohar very very interesting, can i start reading from this?

Please don't. It is our mystical text which only should be studied once you have a firm understanding of Tanakh. This text would not be recommended by any Jew. Do not study the Zohar!
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #55 on: December 24, 2008, 12:57:40 AM »
thank you everyone for helping me out.

It will take me 2-3 weeks before i am able to comment anything

One question, i found Zohar very very interesting, can i start reading from this?

 You wont understand it, the language is cryptic, it uses words that you can understand only with a guide who recieves the tradition correctly.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline ✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #56 on: December 24, 2008, 03:55:03 AM »
thank you everyone for helping me out.

It will take me 2-3 weeks before i am able to comment anything

One question, i found Zohar very very interesting, can i start reading from this?

Please don't. It is our mystical text which only should be studied once you have a firm understanding of Tanakh. This text would not be recommended by any Jew. Do not study the Zohar!

So does it mean i have to read the Tanakh first and then read the Zohar? or is it that a non-jew is not supposed to learn about it?

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #57 on: December 24, 2008, 10:52:52 AM »
thank you everyone for helping me out.

It will take me 2-3 weeks before i am able to comment anything

One question, i found Zohar very very interesting, can i start reading from this?

Please don't. It is our mystical text which only should be studied once you have a firm understanding of Tanakh. This text would not be recommended by any Jew. Do not study the Zohar!

So does it mean i have to read the Tanakh first and then read the Zohar? or is it that a non-jew is not supposed to learn about it?

 You wont understand properly (and neither would a regular Jew).
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Lisa

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #58 on: December 24, 2008, 11:29:59 AM »
I think the best thing would be to start out with the first two books I recommended.

Offline q_q_

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #59 on: December 25, 2008, 07:03:40 PM »
<snip>
So does it mean i have to read the Tanakh first and then read the Zohar? or is it that a non-jew is not supposed to learn about it?
[/quote]

 a non-jew is not supposed to learn about the zohar.

basics about judaism are fine.. The books Lisa mentioned.

Offline cjd

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #60 on: December 25, 2008, 07:20:12 PM »
<snip>
So does it mean i have to read the Tanakh first and then read the Zohar? or is it that a non-jew is not supposed to learn about it?


 a non-jew is not supposed to learn about the zohar.

basics about judaism are fine.. The books Lisa mentioned.

I think its very hard to enforce rules like that on non Jews. If the books are available people will look into them if they are interested in learning what they contain.
He who overlooks one crime invites the commission of another.        Syrus.

A light on to the nations for 60 years


Offline q_q_

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #61 on: December 25, 2008, 07:38:38 PM »
<snip>
So does it mean i have to read the Tanakh first and then read the Zohar? or is it that a non-jew is not supposed to learn about it?


 a non-jew is not supposed to learn about the zohar.

basics about judaism are fine.. The books Lisa mentioned.

I think its very hard to enforce rules like that on non Jews. If the books are available people will look into them if they are interested in learning what they contain.


Listen.  He wants to know what judaism says

He is not asking if it's ok. He is asking if judaism says it's ok. That's what he means.

It is not enforcing rules.

It is not enforcing rules any more than you asking me if (according to judaism) you are allowed to be an atheist or do certain things, and me telling you that according to judaism, all people in the world should believe in G-d and shouldn't commit certain sins. Just like christianity also makes claims as to what all people should believe.



Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #62 on: December 25, 2008, 08:21:14 PM »
If it is a book you would like then maybe get the book "Beyond a reasonable doubt" By Rabbi Shmuel Waldman.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline q_q_

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #63 on: December 25, 2008, 08:45:27 PM »
Tzvi did it again.

Just listen to Lisa and ignore everybody else.

I am not going into why. Not again.

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #64 on: December 25, 2008, 08:54:27 PM »
Tzvi did it again.

Just listen to Lisa and ignore everybody else.

I am not going into why. Not again.


 I did nothing wrong. He asked for good book and for suggestions , and I gave him. I am confident that Halahically it is okay and actually good for him to read this type of book. Please tell me what is wrong (Halahically) with my suggestion (to his question)?
 
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline q_q_

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #65 on: December 25, 2008, 09:23:34 PM »
Tzvi did it again.

Just listen to Lisa and ignore everybody else.

I am not going into why. Not again.


 I did nothing wrong. He asked for good book and for suggestions , and I gave him. I am confident that Halahically it is okay and actually good for him to read this type of book. Please tell me what is wrong (Halahically) with my suggestion (to his question)?
 

I didn't say it was halachically wrong. I said it was Tzvi being Tzvi again.

First, at least be honest about what you are trying to do


Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #66 on: December 25, 2008, 09:38:42 PM »
Tzvi did it again.

Just listen to Lisa and ignore everybody else.

I am not going into why. Not again.


 I did nothing wrong. He asked for good book and for suggestions , and I gave him. I am confident that Halahically it is okay and actually good for him to read this type of book. Please tell me what is wrong (Halahically) with my suggestion (to his question)?
 

I didn't say it was halachically wrong. I said it was Tzvi being Tzvi again.

First, at least be honest about what you are trying to do



 Exactly.
 
 And I am honest, and I wasn't and aren't hiding anything. This person asked for books to learn about Judaism and the Torah. Or the same as getting closer to G-d and learning about G-d. I suggested him 1 book (that I got today, and heard the author speaking today actually), that writes about recognizing G-d (and writes why with scientific proof). According to the Torah everyone should recognize 1 G-d, and His Torah. Their are also 7 Mitzvot Bnai Noah (actually that is the foundation its more then that), but 1 of them is to recognize 1 G-d. On top of that he is asking to learn about Torah and learning about G-d. Am I trying to have (or let) him recognize it? YES. And I'm not ashamed of that at all.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #67 on: December 25, 2008, 09:43:34 PM »
And by the way qq- you do know that it is a Mitzva? Their are actually sources in the Talmud that says that the Jews were exiled only to teach the rest of the world about G-d. (I'm not going to get into the discussion about that right now, of what if they were not exiled, etc.) . And on top of that, since it is a Mitzva, Hashuva. You shouldn't try preventing someone making a Mitzva.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline q_q_

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #68 on: December 25, 2008, 09:50:01 PM »
There is a difference between

-a book that explains about judaism,.

And

-a book that is to prove judaism the true religion - and no doubt that other religions are false or have no evidence.

You recommended a book for the latter. Be honest.

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #69 on: December 25, 2008, 10:03:19 PM »
There is a difference between

-a book that explains about judaism,.

And

-a book that is to prove judaism the true religion - and no doubt that other religions are false or have no evidence.

You recommended a book for the latter. Be honest.

 I didn't read the book yett. But from what he was speaking he was speaking about science basically (explaining in details).
 And I dont see the difference of what you said.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #70 on: December 25, 2008, 10:16:23 PM »
Here ill type the chapters (in order).

compelling evidence of a creator.
the Divine origin of the Torah
The world to come- eternal existence
the 7 wonders of Jewish history.
Divine guidence throughout Jewish history
some more understanding of the Holocaust and human suffering
understanding G-d's forknowledge and our free will
the downfall of the theory of evolution
epilogue
 Appendix A: The oral Law
 B:The unity of G-d
 C: can G-d give himself a cold that even he cant cure?
  D: the Messiah
  E: Ressurection of the dead
  F: Torah and nature working together
  G: the amazing traditions of the Torah
  H: the orinins of christianity and islam
 Jewish organizations
suggested reading
 
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline q_q_

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #71 on: December 25, 2008, 10:28:59 PM »
There is a difference between

-a book that explains about judaism,.

And

-a book that is to prove judaism the true religion - and no doubt that other religions are false or have no evidence.

You recommended a book for the latter. Be honest.
<snip>
 I dont see the difference of what you said.

Read the sentences carefully.

Does anybody here admit to not seeing the difference between those two sentences?



By the way, the front cover of the book says "Convincing proofs of the truths of judaism"

And it is described as "Written for the Jew who seeks evidence and proofs that the principal beliefs of Judaism are indeed true"

And there is information there about, as you show in your post The Origins of christianity and islam.  Of course the book argues against the truth of all other religions.. Not just christianity and islam which you mention there.

Offline Tzvi Ben Roshel1

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #72 on: December 26, 2008, 12:31:05 AM »
"By the way, the front cover of the book says "Convincing proofs of the truths of judaism""

 IT says "Convincing Evidence of the truths of Judaism"


"And it is described as "Written for the Jew who seeks evidence and proofs that the principal beliefs of Judaism are indeed true""

 I dont see that.

"And there is information there about, as you show in your post The Origins of christianity and islam.  Of course the book argues against the truth of all other religions.. Not just christianity and islam which you mention there. "

So? I just listed the chapers in order by the way. And either way, it doesn't matter. Stop waisting your time with your non-sense comments relating to this because you are wrong and dont have what to back yourself up.
The Academy of Elijah taught, whoever studies the laws (of the Torah) every day, (he) is guaranteed to have a share in the World to Come.

‏119:139 צִמְּתַתְנִי קִנְאָתִי כִּישָׁכְחוּ דְבָרֶיךָ צָרָי
My zeal incenses me, for my adversaries have forgotten Your words.
‏119:141 צָעִיר אָנֹכִי וְנִבְזֶה פִּקֻּדֶיךָ, לֹא שָׁכָחְתִּי.
 I am young and despised; I have not forgotten Your precepts.

" A fool does not realize, and an unwise person does not understand this (i.e. the following:) When the wicked bloom like grass, and the evildoers blossom (i.e. when they seem extremly successful), it is to destroy them forever (i.e. they are rewarded for their few good deeds in this World, and they will have no portion in the World to Come!)

Please visit: (The Greatest lectures on Earth).
http://torahanytime.com/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Yossi_Mizrachi/
http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Zecharia_Wallerstein/

Offline ✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #73 on: December 26, 2008, 02:39:53 AM »
i do not mind reading about Judaism being the true religion and others being not so. I think this is a fact. Hinduism teaches one to take a path of knowing about God through a way which is suited for one according to his inner beliefs. SO when i wish to know about Judaism as being a true religion. i'm not going against any Hindu concepts. Understanding about Judaism can be a problem for Christianity or Islam as both consider itself to be propogating the truth.But not for us. And i agree with muman when he said a local Rabbi would be the best person to guide.I would first understand as much as i can and if there comes a time where i get opportunity to know from a Rabbi,i would certainly do so.

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Re: Where to start?
« Reply #74 on: December 26, 2008, 05:48:22 AM »
"By the way, the front cover of the book says "Convincing proofs of the truths of judaism""

 IT says "Convincing Evidence of the truths of Judaism"


"And it is described as "Written for the Jew who seeks evidence and proofs that the principal beliefs of Judaism are indeed true""

 I dont see that.

try looking at the publisher's website, or other websites describing the book.

Now, we can't have a sensible discussion unless you understand

Hindu Zinoist understands the the difference between these 2 types of book..

Think a bit harder Tzvi, think till it hurts.

It doesn't take much logic to understand this difference. Think a little.


Tell me, do these 2 descriptions still look the same to you.. do you still see no difference between.

-a book that explains about judaism,.

And

-a book that is to prove judaism the true religion - and no doubt that other religions are false or have no evidence.