Author Topic: Ethiopian Jews are pro-Israel!  (Read 6662 times)

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Offline BabylonianJew

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Ethiopian Jews are pro-Israel!
« on: April 05, 2007, 04:56:50 PM »
Today I had a conservation with an Ethiopian Jew, and he was very pro-Israel, and hated Palestineans more than anything. He said if it wasn't for Israel, one of the oldest Jewish communities would have died out between the Muslims and the Orthodox Christians. Ethiopian Jews also enagage in the mitlitary. I think their true Jews and their proud of their Jewish hertiage and their country Israel. What do you people think about them?

Offline mord

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Re: Ethiopian Jews are pro-Israel!
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2007, 05:00:38 PM »
I agree
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
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Offline dawntreader

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Re: Ethiopian Jews are pro-Israel!
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2007, 05:14:59 PM »
100% the Ethiopian Jews ARE Jews.

They should not have had to undergo any kind of stupid conversion ceremony the Ashkenazi Rabbis forced upon them!
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Offline kahaneloyalist

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Re: Ethiopian Jews are pro-Israel!
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2007, 08:01:12 PM »
the reason there should be conversions is many of them converted to Christianity and we only rediscovered their Jewishness when Israel was saving the definate Jews. So we just dont know for many of them.
"For it is through the mercy of fools that all Justice is lost"
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Offline mord

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Re: Ethiopian Jews are pro-Israel!
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2007, 07:28:09 AM »
Look the Ethiopian Jews are not nazis like some of the eastern europeans that Israel allowed in.Why are some maybe 30%of these russians nazis,the Ethipopian Jews are Jewish except for a tiny minority
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Offline Nonny

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Re: Ethiopian Jews are pro-Israel!
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2007, 01:00:28 PM »
100% the Ethiopian Jews ARE Jews.

They should not have had to undergo any kind of stupid conversion ceremony the Ashkenazi Rabbis forced upon them!

The Lubavitcher Rebbe stated that the Falashas weren't Jews and that any conversion should take place on an indivdual basis outside of Israel, and that bringing them in en masse would give Israel future sore cause to regret.

Rav Moshe Feinstein ruled that the Falashas at best had the status of sofek yehudim - "doubtful Jews", who as such require minimum geirus ie mikveh and hatofas dam.

That most Falashas were tragically incited on arrival at Ben Gurion airport by Israeli anti-Torah leftist subversives to refuse to undergo even this quick procedure, has left a doubt on their Jewishness to this day.

The Falash Mura according to all Halachic opinions are non-Jews, and require full geirus.

All of them undergo this ie the 20,000 Falash Mura who have arrived since 2002 are actually more Jewish, in the minds of most Orthodox (ie can be counted in a minyan), than the Falashas who arrived in 1985!
« Last Edit: April 07, 2007, 01:03:33 PM by Nonny »

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Ethiopian Jews are pro-Israel!
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2007, 01:03:35 PM »
I don't know enough about Ethiopian Jews to make a comment on the subject, but, for the record, should secular, leftist Jews from around the world be made to undergo conversions?

Many of them are of dubious Jewishness as well. I for one wouldn't let C ock Schumer make aliyah even if he DID undergo some ceremony.

Offline dawntreader

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Re: Ethiopian Jews are pro-Israel!
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2007, 01:12:51 PM »
Ashkenazi and Sephardic Israeli orthodox rabbis (ala Shlomo Amar) are notoriously arrogant. They even changed the rules for conversion without telling American Orthodox rabbis causing a huge problem.

As for Halachic arguments, I'm sorry but the history of the Ethiopian Jews proves they are Jewish. Ashkenazi rabbis during the 1800's accepted them fully as a Jewish community.

They, themselves claim to either come from one of two sources.

1. The Queen of Sheba and Solomon

or

2. Some, from some areas claim to have come from the tribe of Dan.

Just because they did not have the Talmud, does not mean they are not Jews. They had some of their own traditions based on the written Torah...but this would be the case with any isolated Jewish settlement.

It is the height of arrogance to believe one is not Jewish...and needs an official "conversion" because one does not follow, or have traditions of the Talmud.

Karaite Jews (Of whom a great many were Ashkenazi AND Sephardi) were, at one time (During the Middle Ages) 10 percent of all Jews in the world. They did not, and to this day do not, accept the Talmud. Yet they are still Jews.

Somehow I think there is a race issue in the backs of the Israeli Orthodox rabbis' minds. Hey...these guys are black! I bet they aren't REALLY Jews.

I think it's disgusting.
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Offline Nonny

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Re: Ethiopian Jews are pro-Israel!
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2007, 02:14:24 PM »
Quote from: dawntreader
Just because they did not have the Talmud, does not mean they are not Jews.

Do you accept the "Black Hebrews" of Dimona as Jews? Just on their say so?! They claim that they are the real Jews, and Sefardim and Ashkenazim are the imposters!

The Falashas didn't just not have the Talmud.

They didn't know Hebrew or Aramic. They didn't even know of Tefillin.

Falashas

1) called their place of worship masgid - "mosque" in Arabic;

2)  had no knowledge of  Hebrew or Aramaic, reciting all their prayers in Ge'ez;

3) used only the Ethiopic Bible, which includes Apocryphal books excluded from our Tenach, such as Tobit, Judith and the Wisdom of Ben Sirah; they did not possess the Sefer Torah in scroll form, but read from a book;

4) did not use Tallits, Tzitzis or Mezuzos;

5) observed the Sabbath without any light, fire or heated food, and kept the Festivals on different dates and in styles markedly different from our own;

6) performed animal sacrifices forbidden by the rabbis since the destruction of the Temple;

7) practised a crude form of Shechitah, not in accordance with the sophisticated and painless method laid down in the Codes;

8 ) made no ritual distinction between meat and milk;

9) circumcised boys, as do all Ethiopians, but omitting the vital splitting of the per'iah membrane, as mandated by the Din. They subjected girls to excision, a form of clitoridectomy that is repugnant to Judaism, but is common to most African tribes. Both the operations on boys and girls were performed by women;

10) practised monasticism, a movement totally alien to Judaism, as an important part of their theology which was a mixture of pagan, Judaic and Christian elements; they had no knowledge of the Oral Law or of Talmudic interpretation;

11) allowed the title and performance of Cohanic functions to persons of non-Aharonic descent; 

12) Chalitzah was unknown to them; ironically, those who wish to recognise the Falashas as Jews  would by definition be classing many of them as mamzerim, since the written Get was also unknown to them and matrimonial and genealogical records non-existent. It is impossible to find out which of them is a real Cohen or how many illicit marriages have been contracted among them.

All this caused their status, at best, to be that of sofek yehudim.

It has nothing to do with "racism".


Offline dawntreader

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Re: Ethiopian Jews are pro-Israel!
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2007, 04:22:55 PM »
Quote
Do you accept the "Black Hebrews" of Dimona as Jews? Just on their say so?! They claim that they are the real Jews, and Sefardim and Ashkenazim are the imposters!

The Falashas didn't just not have the Talmud.

They didn't know Hebrew or Aramic. They didn't even know of Tefillin.

Falashas

1) called their place of worship masgid - "mosque" in Arabic;

2)  had no knowledge of  Hebrew or Aramaic, reciting all their prayers in Ge'ez;

3) used only the Ethiopic Bible, which includes Apocryphal books excluded from our Tenach, such as Tobit, Judith and the Wisdom of Ben Sirah; they did not possess the Sefer Torah in scroll form, but read from a book;

4) did not use Tallits, Tzitzis or Mezuzos;

5) observed the Sabbath without any light, fire or heated food, and kept the Festivals on different dates and in styles markedly different from our own;

6) performed animal sacrifices forbidden by the rabbis since the destruction of the Temple;

7) practised a crude form of Shechitah, not in accordance with the sophisticated and painless method laid down in the Codes;

8 ) made no ritual distinction between meat and milk;

9) circumcised boys, as do all Ethiopians, but omitting the vital splitting of the per'iah membrane, as mandated by the Din. They subjected girls to excision, a form of clitoridectomy that is repugnant to Judaism, but is common to most African tribes. Both the operations on boys and girls were performed by women;

10) practised monasticism, a movement totally alien to Judaism, as an important part of their theology which was a mixture of pagan, Judaic and Christian elements; they had no knowledge of the Oral Law or of Talmudic interpretation;

11) allowed the title and performance of Cohanic functions to persons of non-Aharonic descent;

12) Chalitzah was unknown to them; ironically, those who wish to recognise the Falashas as Jews  would by definition be classing many of them as mamzerim, since the written Get was also unknown to them and matrimonial and genealogical records non-existent. It is impossible to find out which of them is a real Cohen or how many illicit marriages have been contracted among them.

All this caused their status, at best, to be that of sofek yehudim.

It has nothing to do with "racism".

Lets take this point by point:

Falashas

1) called their place of worship masgid - "mosque" in Arabic; True, but in an isolated community, people pickup words from other languages and incorporate them into their own. Before the Temple was destroyed a majority of Jews spoke Aramaic, not Hebrew.


2)  had no knowledge of  Hebrew or Aramaic, reciting all their prayers in Ge'ez; This is patently false.  According to accounts by European visitors of the 17th century, Portuguese merchants and diplomats, French, British and other travellers, the Beta Israel numbered about one million persons. These accounts also testify that some knowledge of Hebrew remained even in the 17th century. For example, Manoel de Almeida, a Portuguese diplomat and traveller of the day, writes that:

    "The Falashas or Jews are ... of [Arabic] race [and speak] Hebrew, though it is very corrupt. They have their Hebrew Bibles and sing the psalms in their synagogues."[8]

 

 3) used only the Ethiopic Bible, which includes Apocryphal books excluded from our Tenach, such as Tobit, Judith and the Wisdom of Ben Sirah; they did not possess the Sefer Torah in scroll form, but read from a book;This signifies nothing. If the stories are true that they are decended from the Tribe of Dan, then they went into Exile from the Northern Kingdom of Israel, before the Temple was destroyed, and before there was a "Biblical Canon."


4) did not use Tallits, Tzitzis or Mezuzos; Again, this signifies nothing, since it is conceivable that they lost particular traditions down through the centuries. Other Israeli tribes completely disapeared! It is possible that the tribe of Dan held on to some bits of their knowledge but forgot others.

5) observed the Sabbath without any light, fire or heated food, and kept the Festivals on different dates and in styles markedly different from our own; Wow...one more time. This does not mean anything. Jews of today observe the Sabbath differently from one another depending on the stream of Judaism you happen to belong to.


6) performed animal sacrifices forbidden by the rabbis since the destruction of the Temple; Well duh. They were exiled before the Temple was destroyed and therefore had no knowledge that rabbinical authorities in Babylon and in Israel prohibited animal sacrifices. They had no knowledge of the Temple's destruction.

7) practised a crude form of Shechitah, not in accordance with the sophisticated and painless method laid down in the Codes; One more time...they didn't know about these codes since they were exiled long before the codes were written.

8 ) made no ritual distinction between meat and milk; Again...these ritual distinctions were made by Rabbis...there is NO written biblical injuction against eating meat with dairy products. There is only a reference to not cooking the kid in its mothers milk. (Which is cruel and disgusting.) Nowhere does it say thou shalt not eat beef with cheese. The ritual distinctions made up by the rabbis occurred after the exile of the Northern Kingdom. The Ethiopian Jews would not have known about those distinctions.


9) circumcised boys, as do all Ethiopians, but omitting the vital splitting of the per'iah membrane, as mandated by the Din. They subjected girls to excision, a form of clitoridectomy that is repugnant to Judaism, but is common to most African tribes. Both the operations on boys and girls were performed by women; Even in ancient Israel, people had a hard time not copying the practices of the peoples around them. Many times they copied the ways of the canaanites. It is very possible that living in exile caused them to pick up practices and habits of the places that they fled to.


10) practised monasticism, a movement totally alien to Judaism, as an important part of their theology which was a mixture of pagan, Judaic and Christian elements; they had no knowledge of the Oral Law or of Talmudic interpretation; Wow...talk about beating a dead horse. These guys were exiled from the Northern Kingdom! They would not have any knowledge of the Talmud.

11) allowed the title and performance of Cohanic functions to persons of non-Aharonic descent; Duh. If they were all from the Tribe of Dan...and there were no members of the tribe of Levi...they still might want to be able to carry on traditions they were familiar with and remembered.

As to their holy books being written in a language other than Hebrew...: following the conquest of the Kingdom of Gondar in the 17th century, all Jewish holy books were destroyed, and their study forbidden. If Hebrew writings were still extant, this is the time when they were definitively lost. However, the Jews persisted in reading what they could, including the "Tanach" of the Christian scriptures written in the Christian holy tongue Ge'ez. The Jewish monks, in any case, had retained knowledge of Ge'ez from their ancient Christian antecedents. Great care was taken by these monks and priests to eliminate specifically Christian texts, practices and ideas. Thus, ironically, the Christian religious literature was used selectively to provide the continuing foundation for study of the Jewish sources. This helps to account for some of the texts (and practices) used by the Beta Israel that are not found elsewhere amongst Jews.[/color]

And if you want to use the argument that even those in the Northern Kingdom would have "known about the Oral Law", one must remember that even during the time of the Temple in the Southern Kingdom of Judea there were Saducees who rejected the Oral Law. The Karaite Jews also reject the Oral Tradition on these grounds:

1. They question if the law as it is in the Mishnah, was intended to be oral, then how would it be permissible to be written?
   2. The Mishnah quotes many different opinions that contradict one another.
   3. The Mishnah doesn't go on to say in which opinion the truth lies. Rather the Mishnah sometimes says "Others say" agreeing with neither one nor the other, contradicting both.
   4. They argue the truth of the oral law given to Moses could only be in one opinion, not many contradictory opinions.
   5. They question why the Mishnah does not solely speak in the name of Moses.


Sounds kind of reasonable to me.
Victory is a thing of the will. -General Ferdinand Foch

Our peace must be a peace of victors, not of the vanquished.
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Offline Nonny

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Re: Ethiopian Jews are pro-Israel!
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2007, 06:25:09 PM »
The Falashas are of pure Ethiopian stock, part of the Agaw group of tribes of Cushitic origin, indistinguishable physically and genetically from their fellow Ethiopians. Most of the great Ethiopicists of the last century, especially Conti Rossini of Rome, Cerulli of Milan, Polotsky of Jerusalem, Leslau of California, Rodison of Paris, Ullendorff of London, and Rabbi Dr Maurice Gaguine of Manchester, rejected the concept of an authentic Jewish source for the Falashas as being historically unwarranted

There is evidence that Jewish merchants from Arabia spread a form of Judaic culture throughout Ethiopia during the pre-Christian Aksumite era. The available historical, linguistic, cultural and semantic evidence suggests that the Falashas are probably descended from those pockets of resistance that clung to this Judaic culture against the fierce Christian penetration of Ethiopia.

Claiming filiation from Jews is a fairly common phenomenon whereby colonised minorities tend to identify their plight with that of Ancient Israel e.g. the African-American "Black Hebrews" of Dimona, who claim to be the real Jews, with Ashkenazim and Sefardim as the impostors!

Some claim that the Falashas are connected to the Tribe of Dan.

Yet The Talmud rules that because they lost contact for so long with the spiritual leadership of the Tribe of Judah, all the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel are Halachically goyim (Yevamos 17), but that in Messianic times they will return, convert and accept again the Torah of Moshe.

Rabbi Kahane, who was not a "racist", despite being labelled as such, held the Falashas to be our brother Jews, once the Halachic conversion requirements have been fulfilled.

Otherwise: "The Falashas are not our brother Jews. They are plain Ethiopian blacks who have brought a mageifoh of AIDS into Eretz Yisroel!" (Rabbi Avigdor Miller).

Notice: that the ones who were initially keen in bringing them to Israel were the leftists. Yossi Sarid wanted to bring in 1 million Ethiopian blacks immediately.

But once the leftists saw that the Falashas and Falash Mura are quite right-wing, they've now clamped down totally: the last 6000 are on their way.

After that: not one Ethiopian will be allowed in. אנחנו לא רוצים להיתכושן המדינה "We don't want to negrify the State" (Mayor of Mevasseret Tziyon Carmi Gillon, former head of Shabak, after seeing new Falash Mura immigrants picking through the municipality trash receptacles!).

"We have not done anyone a favour by bringing the Ethiopians to Israel: not to them, nor to us!" (Natan Sharansky).
« Last Edit: April 07, 2007, 06:43:10 PM by Nonny »

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Ethiopian Jews are pro-Israel!
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2007, 10:14:03 PM »
Yacov, what is the difference between the Oral Torah and the written Torah?

Offline Nonny

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Re: Ethiopian Jews are pro-Israel!
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2007, 10:14:59 PM »
Quote from: Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim
Chaim says that The LOST Tribes won't be back when The Mashiach comes except for the ancient Ten Tribes from before The Assyrian Exile, in Resurrection of The Dead.

Yair Davidy of Britam is an Orthodox right-wing Australian fellow in Jerusalem who brings interesting evidence that the 10 Lost Tribes are to be found amongst the white European, Celtic, British, US & Australian peoples!

Whilst this sounds like a rehash of the Victorian "British-Israelite" theory, Davidy is often interviewed on Arutz 7 and his site www.britam.org is well worth a serious study.
 


Remember: the Talmud states that although the 10 Lost Tribes are of Israelitish stock, they have the status of gentiles!
« Last Edit: April 07, 2007, 10:17:30 PM by Nonny »

Offline Nonny

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Re: Ethiopian Jews are pro-Israel!
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2007, 11:24:17 PM »
Whilst it may be hard to accept that your average uncircumcised, beer swilling, swine scoffing, red nosed, cussing Englishman/Dutchman/Swede/Australian/Scotsman/American could be from the ancient Am Yisrael, and I myself are not fully convinced, but in light of the historical and geographical evidence and the prophecies about the Ten Tribes' worldwide dispersion, numbers and power around the world, and their ultimate return, Davidy cannot be dismissed without study, which I doubt that you or Chaim have done.

In particular wrt the claim that the Anglo-Americans are Ephraim-Menassites, in the light of current events, and their opposition to Judah (Israel) and ultimate reconciliation, as predicted.

No one to date, let alone any scholar, has refuted Davidy's claims. (BTW: Davidy is v.right wing, opposes territorial withdrawl, is very expansionist, and is basically a closet Kahanist-JTFer!).

He has much support from v.wealthy Anglo-American goyim and Noahides, which could be a source of funding for JTF.

This from his site:

http://www.britam.org/Proof/ProofsIntro.html
http://www.britam.org/Proof/ProofsSummary.html

"Our studies have shown concerning the location of the Lost Ten Tribes in the Latter Days that the Bible gives us a great many indications.
From the Geographical Perspective they would be at the geographical extremities (ends) of the earth and in the best physical locations. They would have their major centers to the north, northwest, and west of the Land of Israel, in Isles of the Sea and on peninsulas (thighs). They would be seafarers, and especially linked with the Atlantic Ocean (Tarshish) area. They were to be seafarers. The Tribe of Zebulon would dwell on the Shores of the Sea as the Dutch (some of whom were named "Sabalingoi") indeed do. They would also have a major center in Zerephath meaning the areas of France and the North and the British Isles. They would be found in several different Oceans. One of their major colonies would be in the Land of Sinim which is the Continent of Australia.

Blessings
The Lost Ten Tribes were to enjoy agricultural pleny, vast mineral resources, very large populations, and the "Gates" or straegic thoroughfares of the world.

Joseph
The Blessings were to be found in an especially increased measure in the offspring of Joseph whom we have identified chiefly with the English-speaking peoples.
The figure of Cyrus in Isaiah represents Joseph in the Latter Days. They were to rule over India and much of Africa and the thoroughfare (Suez Canal) of Egpt and to cause large-bodied Africans to be brought over to them in chains at first to serve them and to eventually acknowledge the G-d of Israel with them. Joseph was to be the Dominant World Power, the Greatest International Military Force, and to Rule over others. Joseph was to prove himself capable of defeating in war the major warrior nations of Europe. Ephraim was to symbolize the principal of Nobility or Aristocratic Privilege as Britain does. Manasseh represents the Principles of Responsible Representation and Capitalism ("Machir") as found in the USA. The unicorn and "John Bull" were to be major symbols of Joseph.

Prophesied Roles and Attributes
The Lost Ten Tribes were to become a Blessing to other Peoples and a Light to the Nations. They were to be ruled by descendants of King David and also to be drinkers of alcohol often to excess. They were to be Separate from Judah and not recognizable by Judah according to the criteria with which Judah had become familiar. Their major religion was to be Christianity. They were to be historically associated with and influenced by the descendants of Gomer meaning the Turkish, Germanic, and Celtic-speaking peoples. A trail of megalithic monuments from the Land of Israel to their places of exile in the future would enable them to determine their Israelite origins. Their generic names were to reflect their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The Tribal and Clan Names of the seventy family members of Jacob who went down to Egypt were to be recalled in historical appellations applied to their own Tribal and Clan groups.

ALL OF THE ABOVE are to be found in peoples identified by Brit-Am as having an overwhelming majority of the Lost Ten Tribes amongst their peoples. These nations include Canada, the USA, Ireland, Britain, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, Belgium, France, and possibly Switzerland along with part of South Africa, Australia, and New Zealand.

ONLY these nations fulfil ALL of the required Biblical signs. These nations are also today similar to each other in basic outlook and share a recognized common ancestry. In ADDITION to all of the above ONLY these nations fulfil in a general sense the Ten Criteria we have found as valid for determining which national groups belong to Israel.
In addition to the described Biblical Proofs that are understandable almost immediately from the simple meaning of the verses even in English Translation more Scriptural and Scripture-derived evidence exists in the form of Biblical Codes, Rabbinical Exegesis, and a close analysis of the Hebrew Verses. Examples of these additional sources of evidence are given in articles on our Web Site. They also constitute valid Proofs and help confirm our conclusions.

These Biblical and Biblically-Related Proofs are complemented and strengthened in their impact and the comprehension of them through secular studies in history, archaeology, linguistics, mythology, sociology, and in every field of any pertinence to tracing the ancestry of present-day nations.

These proofs reflect the truth. All of them are correct and all of them valid though evidence derived from the Bible is the foundation for all the rest. It may be that due to individual predilections or parallels elsewhere that some of this evidence will not be immediately accepted by they who peruse it. Nevertheless the evidence needs to be taken as ONE COMPREHENSIVE WHOLE each part supplementing, complementing, and reinforcing the other. When seen as a unitary body of evidence these proofs to our understanding are irrefutable. "
« Last Edit: April 07, 2007, 11:32:52 PM by Nonny »

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: Ethiopian Jews are pro-Israel!
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2007, 02:01:42 AM »
I personally consider the "proofs" set forth by BritAm as "just so much ridiculousness", and I indeed refuted Davidy's "findings" directly well over a year ago.  I was particularly struck by the fact of his being totally ignorant of the fact that the entire "Christian Identity" Movement as well as Aryan Nations and others all use their claim to being the true Israelites, to justify their call for a final holocaust against the Jewish People.

However, for the sake of curiosity, let's hypothetically assume that BritAm's theories are solid documentable facts of history...

What would or could result by such proofs being commonly accepted; to the extent that any changes in international geo-politics might result?

I can only imagine the result being intensified calls for the annihilation of the Jews; only now coming from a much larger population.


Offline Fruit of thy loins

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Re: Ethiopian Jews are pro-Israel!
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2007, 02:24:35 AM »
The Talmud is Mishnah and Gemara.  One can obtain single-volume editions of the Mishnah in English very easily.  It is the collection of laws which existed at the time of the Written Torah.  The Gemara are commentaries on the Mishnah.  Correct me if I am wrong.
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Offline dawntreader

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Re: Ethiopian Jews are pro-Israel!
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2007, 04:32:59 AM »
Quote
Oral Torah existed before The Talmud. It was only written down in The Talmud but existed since Mount Sinai.

Yacov,

This is just a belief with no direct proof that a majority of we Jews believe today. You must know that the Saducees and Karaite Jews as well (Both legitimate Jewish sects) do not and did not believe in the Oral Tradition for the following reasons:

(I personally, since I found this out...find worth in their arguments.)

1. If the law as it is in the Mishnah, was intended to be oral, then how would it be permissible to be written?

2. The Mishnah quotes many different opinions that contradict one another. IF the Oral Law came from HaShem to Moshe on Sinai, shouldn't there be only ONE opinion? That of G-d?

3. The Mishnah doesn't go on to say in which opinion the truth lies. Rather the Mishnah sometimes says "Others say" agreeing with neither one nor the other, contradicting both. (Since the Bible says that G-d is the same yesterday, today and forever, one would think that G-d would lay down one set of rules...clearly...with no grounds for argument...no room for a "majority opinion, or minority opinion...or "other" opinions.)

4.  If the Oral Law came directly to Moshe from HaShem on Sinai, why does it not solely speak in the name of Moshe? Or, more directly, why does it not speak directly in the name of HaShem...saying...This is what the Most High says?
Victory is a thing of the will. -General Ferdinand Foch

Our peace must be a peace of victors, not of the vanquished.
- General Ferdinand Foch

We have met the enemy and they are ours.
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Offline kahaneloyalist

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Re: Ethiopian Jews are pro-Israel!
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2007, 12:38:56 PM »
Quote
Oral Torah existed before The Talmud. It was only written down in The Talmud but existed since Mount Sinai.

Yacov,

This is just a belief with no direct proof that a majority of we Jews believe today. You must know that the Saducees and Karaite Jews as well (Both legitimate Jewish sects) do not and did not believe in the Oral Tradition for the following reasons:

(I personally, since I found this out...find worth in their arguments.)

1. If the law as it is in the Mishnah, was intended to be oral, then how would it be permissible to be written?

2. The Mishnah quotes many different opinions that contradict one another. IF the Oral Law came from HaShem to Moshe on Sinai, shouldn't there be only ONE opinion? That of G-d?

3. The Mishnah doesn't go on to say in which opinion the truth lies. Rather the Mishnah sometimes says "Others say" agreeing with neither one nor the other, contradicting both. (Since the Bible says that G-d is the same yesterday, today and forever, one would think that G-d would lay down one set of rules...clearly...with no grounds for argument...no room for a "majority opinion, or minority opinion...or "other" opinions.)

4.  If the Oral Law came directly to Moshe from HaShem on Sinai, why does it not solely speak in the name of Moshe? Or, more directly, why does it not speak directly in the name of HaShem...saying...This is what the Most High says?
Dawn, I will try to answer your questions as best I can

1. Rebbe Yehuda HaNasi leader of Jewry at the time saw that the Torah SheBaal Peh was in danger of being lost, so he changed the Halacha in this regard so that the Torah Shebaal peh could be written down.

2. True there was origianally only one opinion but questions and disagreements began to arise, the very reason that the law had to be written down.

3. Hashem set down the rule that the Sanhedrin would decide new questions that arise and arent answered directly in the Torah through a majority. There were different opinion on various issues and it would often take many years of debate to decide a issue. If a issue couldnt be decided the question was left open and it was agreed Eliyahu HaNavi would answer the questions when he returned.

4. Moshe was the one who spoke though he did speak in the name of Hashem, so since it was heard from Moshe we say Moshe said. Interestingly the Ethiopian Jews bring their Halachot down like this Hashem spoke to Moshe who spoke to Yehoshua who spoke to the Zikanim who said....

I understand that you are attracted to the Kairites but you must understand that the Sadducem were similiar to Reform in that the movement was created by people who didnt want to follow the stringincies of the Torah so they created a philosophy that allowed them to do what they wanted. Which was primarily to live up Roman "culture".
"For it is through the mercy of fools that all Justice is lost"
Ramban

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: Ethiopian Jews are pro-Israel!
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2007, 01:13:15 PM »
Re:  "...That is why there are some American Indians who claim to be lost tribes..."

The most famous of them -- Ed Ames!

I vote to "claim" the ones who own casinos as "our long-lost tribal brethren".

There is also a Black American Indian Tribe who claim to be the lost tribes!

The Ni-ga-ho's!

Offline solomon7

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Britam (lost tribes of Israel)
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2007, 02:32:38 PM »
Shalom all
 
I have been visiting the www.britam.org  for several months now. What i have found on the website is somewhat disturbing bordering on racism. For instance Mr Davidy refuses to condemn the brutal oppressive Apartheid regime that existed in South Africa, he also REFUSES condemn the European enslavement of Africans. To add to this he claims that the original children of Israel were mainly Nordic in appearance.To sum up Britam it is an elitist organisation that borders on white supremacy- the Torah teaches against racism AVOID BRITAM

Offline Nonny

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Re: Ethiopian Jews are pro-Israel!
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2007, 04:41:55 PM »
Sounds like Britam's Davidy would get on great with Chaim!

The Torah is not racist.

But it is racialist!
« Last Edit: April 10, 2007, 04:43:30 PM by Nonny »

Offline dawntreader

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Re: Ethiopian Jews are pro-Israel!
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2007, 11:00:23 PM »
Quote
Dude, Karaites CANNOT be included in a minyan. The fear is worse than including Reform Jews in a minyan. Why? Because at least many Reform Jews keep some Rabbinic traditions, and others, they can be honest about where they came from. But Karaite Jews follow patrilinial descent, which creates the fear that many are, in fact, goyim.

Actually the Chief Rabbis in Israel ruled that Karaites are Jews. They might not following all the same traditions as regular Jews...but they are still Jews. As to following Patrilineal descent...they do so because in the Written Torah, this is how descent was counted...from the Father, not the mother. (Note: I did not say Tanach...but in the five books of Moshe...which karaites hold as the Only Torah...this is where descent came from...the dads...not the moms.)
Victory is a thing of the will. -General Ferdinand Foch

Our peace must be a peace of victors, not of the vanquished.
- General Ferdinand Foch

We have met the enemy and they are ours.
- Oliver Hazard Perry

Offline Fruit of thy loins

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Re: Britam (lost tribes of Israel)
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2007, 04:23:01 AM »
Shalom all
 
I have been visiting the www.britam.org  for several months now. What i have found on the website is somewhat disturbing bordering on racism. For instance Mr Davidy refuses to condemn the brutal oppressive Apartheid regime that existed in South Africa, he also REFUSES condemn the European enslavement of Africans. To add to this he claims that the original children of Israel were mainly Nordic in appearance.To sum up Britam it is an elitist organisation that borders on white supremacy- the Torah teaches against racism AVOID BRITAM




Segregation, slavery and apartheid were all valid and acceptable ways of escaping racist brutality at the hands of evil [censored].
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