Author Topic: pro israel article in The Times of London  (Read 668 times)

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Offline q_q_

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pro israel article in The Times of London
« on: January 07, 2009, 09:07:43 AM »
Mord may have wondered about british media.

there are some journalists at The Times that are supportive of israel.. still for a 2 state solution i'm sure since they don't talk transfer, but then so are most of the likud anyway.

this article was so good that it impressed walid shoebat or his manager enough to email it to those on his mailing list.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/daniel_finkelstein/article5461544.ece

Israel acts because the world won't defend it
The scenes from Gaza are heartbreaking. But the whole conflict could be avoided if the Palestinians said one small thing

By Daniel Finkelstein

It was strictly forbidden to have a notebook in Belsen, but my Aunt Ruth had one anyway. Just a little pocket diary - an appointment book with one of those tiny pencils. And in it, in the autumn of 1944, she noted that Anne Frank and Anne's sister, Ruth's schoolfriend Margot, had arrived in the concentration camp.

My mother and my aunt had been watching through the camp wire when the Franks arrived. Mum remembers it well, because they had been excited to spot girls they knew from the old days in Amsterdam. They had played in the same streets, been to the same schools and Ruth and Margot attended Hebrew classes together. The pair had once been pressed into service to act as bridesmaids, when a secretive Jewish wedding had taken place at the synagogue during their lesson time.

But Ruth and Margot did not grow up together. Because while Ruth and my mother lived, Margot and Anne never left Belsen. They died of typhus.

I am telling you this story because I want you to understand Israel. Not to agree with all it does, not to keep quiet when you want to protest against its actions, not to side with it always, merely to understand Israel.

There are two things about the tale that help to provide insight. The first is that all these things, the gas chambers, the concentration camps, the attempt to wipe Jews from the face of the Earth, they aren't ancient history, and they aren't fable. They happened to real people and they happened in our lifetime. Anne and Margot Frank were just children to my aunt and my mother; they weren't icons, or symbols of anything.

The second is that world opinion weeps now for Anne Frank. But world opinion did not save her.

The origin of the state of Israel is not religion or nationalism, it is the experience of oppression and murder, the fear of total annihilation and the bitter conclusion that world opinion could not be relied upon to protect the Jews.

Israel was the idea of a journalist. Theodor Herzl was the Paris correspondent of the Neue Freie Presse when he witnessed anti-Semitic rioting against the Jewish army captain Alfred Dreyfus who had been falsely accused of espionage. Herzl was then among the small corps of journalists who in 1895 witnessed the famous ceremony of disgrace in which Dreyfus was stripped of his epaulettes.

The experience led Herzl to abandon his belief in assimilation. He became convinced that Jews would only be safe if they had their own national home. Herzl became the first leader of modern Zionism. For many years many Jews resisted Herzl's conclusion. My grandfather was among them. But the experience of Jews all over the world in the first half of the 20th century - not just in Europe but in the Middle East too - rather bore out Herzl.

So when Israel is urged to respect world opinion and put its faith in the international community the point is rather being missed. The very idea of Israel is a rejection of this option. Israel only exists because Jews do not feel safe as the wards of world opinion. Zionism, that word that is so abused, so reviled, is founded on a determination that, at the end of the day, somehow the Jews will defend themselves and their fellow Jews from destruction. If world opinion was enough, there would be no Israel.

The poverty and the death and the despair among the Palestinians in Gaza moves me to tears. How can it not? Who can see pictures of children in a war zone or a slum street and not be angry and bewildered and driven to protest? And what is so appalling is that it is so unnecessary. For there can be peace and prosperity at the smallest of prices. The Palestinians need only say that they will allow Israel to exist in peace. They need only say this tiny thing, and mean it, and there is pretty much nothing they cannot have.

Yet they will not say it. And they will not mean it. For they do not want the Jews. Again and again - again and again - the Palestinians have been offered a nation state in a divided Palestine. And again and again they have turned the offer down, for it has always been more important to drive out the Jews than to have a Palestinian state. It is difficult sometimes to avoid the feeling that Hamas and Hezbollah don't want to kill Jews because they hate Israel. They hate Israel because they want to kill Jews.

There cannot be peace until this changes. For Israel will not rely on airy guarantees and international gestures to defend it. At its very core, it will not. It will lay down its arms when the Jews are safe, but it will not do it until they are.

And if you reflect on it, doesn't recent experience bear this out? Just as Herzl was borne out? A year or so back I met a teacher while I was on holiday and fell to talking with him about Israel. He was a nice man and all he wanted was for fighting to stop and to end the suffering of children. And he had a question for me.

Why, he asked, doesn't Israel offer to give back the West Bank and Gaza? Why doesn't it just let the Palestinians have a state there? If the Palestinians turned it down, he said, then at least liberal opinion would be on Israel's side and would rally to its assistance.

So I patiently explained to this kind, good man that Israel had, at Camp David in 2000, made precisely this offer and that it had been rejected out of hand by Yassir Arafat, not even used as the basis for negotiation. I told him that Israel was no longer in Gaza, having withdrawn unilaterally and taken the settlers with it. The Palestinians had greeted this movement with suicide bombs and rockets. Yet the teacher, with all his compassion, wasn't even aware of all this. And liberal opinion? Sad to relate, my new friend's faith in it was misplaced. It has turned strongly against Israel.

Israel has made many mistakes. It has acted too aggressively on some occasions, has been too defensive on others. The country hasn't always respected the human rights of its enemies as it should have done. What nation under such a threat would have avoided all errors?

But you know what? As Iran gets a nuclear weapon and so the potential for another Holocaust against the Jews and world opinion does nothing, I am not so sure that the errors of world opinion are so much to be preferred to the errors of Israel.

Offline mord

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Re: pro israel article in The Times of London
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2009, 09:37:34 AM »
Very good
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
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Offline q_q_

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Re: pro israel article in The Times of London
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2009, 11:14:17 AM »
Very good

I don't normally bother reading these things because they are not intellectually interesting..

but if you would like to know of good british journalists.. I suppose that would be a purpose.

Michael Gove is very good. He is a big mind behind the Conservative Party.

He writes for The Times
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/michael_gove/article5263539.ece
"
One thing that has sent me ballistic this week is the decision by St James's Piccadilly to host a special service in which the words of traditional carols have been rewritten to convey an anti-Israeli message. The service is part of a broader campaign to encourage the boycott of goods from Israel, much as we once boycotted goods from South Africa.

Apart from pointing out that declining to buy things on the ground that they're made by Jewish people is not, historically, a good road to go down, I am staggered that people should equate a democracy struggling to preserve human rights in the face of terrorist assault with the apartheid regime. And I am speechless at a church's collaboration with this festival of anti-Semitism. So I shall use another's words and ask that they be forgiven, for clearly, they cannot know the enormity of what they do.
"

Michael Gove whenever asked about israel, is very supportive.  He is an MP.. And not jewish..



Here is an article from some woman about the christmas carols. She quotes Michael Gove
http://irenelancaster.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/12/the-times-is-warned-that-michael-goves-article-about-the-antizionist-carol-concert-at-st-jamess-pica.html

Offline zachor_ve_kavod

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Re: pro israel article in The Times of London
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2009, 11:14:23 AM »
Good article.  So simple even a liberal could understand it...if they were willing, which they aren't.

He makes the case for Israel as necessary for Jewish physical survival, (which is fine, and it's all most people could understand anyway), but Israel is necessary for Jewish spiritual survival as well.  It is one of the elements required.

Offline q_q_

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Re: pro israel article in The Times of London
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2009, 11:20:30 AM »
Good article.  So simple even a liberal could understand it...if they were willing, which they aren't.

He makes the case for Israel as necessary for Jewish physical survival, (which is fine, and it's all most people could understand anyway), but Israel is necessary for Jewish spiritual survival as well.  It is one of the elements required.

I know you think that you think a bit like muman, you said so yourself.. 
I can see a bit of that in your thinking.. But I find that you do "listen" more.
So I will say this. 

As I said already, in the first sentence of the first post. The reason why I posted that article is just to show that there are british journalists that are supportive of israel. They are often on television and radio too , sometimes against a hostile audience, or a hostile interviewer.  They are only a small handful, but they are very great.

Offline q_q_

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Re: pro israel article in The Times of London (and others)
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2009, 11:31:32 AM »
There is also Richard Littlejohn , who used to write in The Sun, and now the Daily Mail.

His style is not intellectual enough for The Times.

The Sun is the most widely read newspapaer in britain. Quite right wing usually

Richard Littlejohn did a TV program on anti-semitism(was on youtube, may still be). And he has supported israel's military actions.

He said that people come up to him and say "I didn't know you were jewish".
He then spoke to another gentile doing a commission against anti-semitism, they've had the same thing said to them.

His The Sun articles were more raw, 'cos articles in The Sun just get to the point.

He drove this arab website crazy

http://www.arabmediawatch.com/amw/Articles/ActionAlerts/tabid/74/newsid397/28/COMPLAIN-TO-THE-SUN-AND-RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN/Default.aspx

the quote Richard Littlejohn
...
"The Palestinians are the pikeys of the Middle East. If they must have a homeland, give them part of Saudi Arabia, because the Egyptians, the Syrians, the Jordanians and the Lebanese don't want them either".

Immediately after the above paragraph, he writes:

"No more hand-wringing. It's time for neck-wringing"
...


Offline muman613

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Re: pro israel article in The Times of London
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2009, 11:37:10 AM »
Good article.  So simple even a liberal could understand it...if they were willing, which they aren't.

He makes the case for Israel as necessary for Jewish physical survival, (which is fine, and it's all most people could understand anyway), but Israel is necessary for Jewish spiritual survival as well.  It is one of the elements required.

I know you think that you think a bit like muman, you said so yourself.. 
I can see a bit of that in your thinking.. But I find that you do "listen" more.
So I will say this. 

As I said already, in the first sentence of the first post. The reason why I posted that article is just to show that there are british journalists that are supportive of israel. They are often on television and radio too , sometimes against a hostile audience, or a hostile interviewer.  They are only a small handful, but they are very great.

q_q_, why do you persist in being such a noodnik? Now you are trying to use me as an insult... Such childish actions on your part do more to tarnish your own image than it does anything to mine. You have established  yourself as someone who cannot restrain himself from making personal insults.

Your posts are not intellectual or poignant at all, regardless of what your infinite ego may tell you.

BTW, where did you learn how to compose sentences? If this is what they teach you in England it is very, very sad because even your opening to this thread was ridiculous... Continue with your fantasy that you are an intellectual and provide me with some laughs...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Debbie Shafer

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Re: pro israel article in The Times of London
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2009, 11:47:43 AM »
Very Good Article:  Fortunately some people tell the truth.  I would like to say we have seen the attempts in History by the Romans, Nebudchanezzar, the Nazis, and Islam to wipe Israel from the map.   It will never never happen.  They will arise again and again.  God has plans Israel and the West for the future. 

In this I am totally certain.