Why we should not use the K-word on JTF

[muman613]

Greetings Everyone,

In a recent video by our arch-nemesis Piss Now the topic discussed was that JTF considers all 'liberal' Jews to be kikes. Of course I understand that many long-time JTFers are comfortable with the use of this word because of its use by our courageous leader Chaim. I am not trying to alter anyones view about what those traitorous Jews should be called. I have heard AisheDina call them Un-Jews and it is a very fitting title. Unfortunately it doesn't sound as insulting and maybe it sounds a bit childish.

Why should we not use this term? Because it has been a very hurtful insult used against the Jewish people for many, many years. Maybe some of us here at JTF were called this name in order to hurt us when we were young. It is true that without context if someone came across this website and saw the use of this term they may come to the conclusion that this site is a covert Nazi site. Coupled with this is the impression by those who don't know the truth about JTF that it is a racist site. I have attempted to quell this impression amongst some people I have attempted to draw into the movement.

Unfortunately it is difficult to bring people in while you are pushing them away. I heard a Rabbi explain a basic Jewish wisdom that in order to rectify the world you must Push away with one hand while you draw in with the other hand.

I would appreciate it if the influential JTF members would be considerate of the feelings of some of the newer members and try to draw them in. This doesn't require radical altering of your feelings and impressions of the traitors who are no doubt joining our enemies. It just requires a bit of wisdom and intelligence in order to bring about the goals which we desire.

Thank you for your consideration. Please post any comments.

 

[q_q_]

This post !! BELOW!! that Muman613 did, is very important

I urge everybody to take note.

Muman and I actually agree on this!

I have pasted Muman's very important post below.
"
zachor_ve_kavod wrote
Now I don't mean to be critical of us, but I've been worried that the use of the word "kike" would haunt us.  Even though I remember the context in which it was used, (and I remember agreeing at the time), it is still a word that makes most Jews bristle.

Muman613
I agree 100%... I have said many times it is very, very wrong to use this term. It is like the schvartzas using the N-word {but the opposite usage}. Very childish and inflamatory. I recommend that it's use be dropped if this movement is ever to be accepted by the Jewish people.

Ive had several friends who are right-wingers refuse to remain members in JTF because of this issue.
"

SO
incase it isn't obvious enough that the K word is bad
look at muman's last sentence there. 

These friends that refused to remain members, were jewish.

We don't have as many jewish members as we should, and we will lose some and fail to attract others , because of this.

[Menachem]

What a fantastic post by muman613.

A while back, I discovered what could very well be the most vile piece of excrement in the history of mankind: a Jewish Holocaust denier named David Cole. Not only did he engage in his craft with more vim and vigor than his Nazi buddies, but he always seemed to have this repulsive smirk on his face while doing it. A truly loathsome beast, to put it mildly.

Yet, I still cannot use that epithet against him. I understand the need to shame a piece of filth like him, but I think it can be done without using the same tools the Nazis use against us.

Just my $.02.

[Xoce]

There are plenty of other vile epithets available for use.  Members can and do show voluntary restraint...
There is only one Chaim... Not everyone should jump in and try to be the most vile and insulting.  This is a word which I have never used, nor plan to use.

Just some of my thoughts

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Hmm. I myself have used it very rarely on this forum, and all of those times I am pretty sure I used a euphemised form of it (like "k***"). I probably should not use it under any circumstances as a Gentile, but would not tell Jews not to use it to describe Jews that deserve it. I'm divided on the issue of Jews using it to describe Jewish dreck, because even though some self-hating worms clearly deserve it, in the eyes of most of the world it is simply a slur against all Jews.

In my opinion, using "dyke" (ex: Mike the Dyke Bloomberg, Dykael Lerner, Dyke Guzofsky, etc.) as a substitute for the K-word is less offensive to Jews, much more creative, and is often completely germane because most self-hating Jews are either homosexual sympathizers or are homosexuals themselves.

Chaimfan

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

The Hebrew clip which Peace Now used is more than 2 years old. I have not used that term for at least 2 years. I agree that use of the term in the past had a negative impact. I do not intend to use the term any more.

However, I am very happy to see something very positive occur in the past several hours: muman and qq are in agreement, and qq is actually quoting muman in a favorable manner! Maybe these two Jews will become friends! Is this a sign that Mashiach is almost here? G-d willing!

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

BTW, there are many other terms that we can use to describe those who are born Jewish but decide to join the enemies of their people. Here are some suggestions:

*self-hating Jews

*Jewish anti-Semites

*self-hating Jewish traitors

*Judenrat

*kapos

[muman613]

The Hebrew clip which Peace Now used is more than 2 years old. I have not used that term for at least 2 years. I agree that use of the term in the past had a negative impact. I do not intend to use the term any more.

However, I am very happy to see something very positive occur in the past several hours: muman and qq are in agreement, and qq is actually quoting muman in a favorable manner! Maybe these two Jews will become friends! Is this a sign that Mashiach is almost here? G-d willing!

Thank you very much Chaim. I am very happy that you understand and have been thinking about the bigger audience by not using this term lately. You are very wise and just as kind. I also appreciate that you enjoy the fact that adversaries in some areas can work together in other areas. I look forward to the day when we all can live in peace as you said, in the days of Mashiach.

Good Morning!

[muman613]

By the way, thank you to everyone who has commented so far. It is great that it seems we agree that the term is offensive to many. Thanks q_q_, Menachem, xoce, and C.F. Your opinion is very much appreciated.

[P J C]

I agree muman. That is a bad habit for JTF. I can care less about a Jew using the word, but people might get turned off. Great post.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I agree with the consensus here that it is not a word we should be using, as it is offensive.   It is a word often used by our enemies as a derogatory slander against us... and all of us.    It has racial connotations.   In other words, it's nonsense.

[Rubystars]

One of the things that I thought was so strange about that video was that Chaim hasn't even used that term in so long, but they dug it up from the past.

I agree that it's not helpful if people use it now.

[Dan]

Great post Muman,
   ...as a non Jew I'll take note and refrain from using it in the future. Becoming more disciplined with our language can only benefit us and the movement in the long run.

[spiritus_persona]

What a fantastic post by muman613.

A while back, I discovered what could very well be the most vile piece of excrement in the history of mankind: a Jewish Holocaust denier named David Cole. Not only did he engage in his craft with more vim and vigor than his Nazi buddies, but he always seemed to have this repulsive smirk on his face while doing it. A truly loathsome beast, to put it mildly.

Yet, I still cannot use that epithet against him. I understand the need to shame a piece of filth like him, but I think it can be done without using the same tools the Nazis use against us.

Just my $.02.

You're right!  I have a problem with that word too!

[Zelhar]

I would describe the piss-now Jews as soap material.

[Shlomo]

I would describe the piss-now Jews as soap material.

I wouldn't describe them as Jews. By Torah, they lost their inheritance when they became traitors to the Jewish people.

[mord]

I would describe the piss-now Jews as soap material.

Yes thats better i will use that term now.The only problem is it's too long to fit into subject

[Zelhar]

I am not sure how many of you have heard it- Ben Gurion used to refer to the refugees, survivors of the Holocaust as 'Human Dust' and he didn't even meant to insult, just to say that these are people that need to be reassign with a new identity of the new Hebrew that he wanted to create. But this kind of attitude lead to people in the early days to give a diminishing treatment to holocaust survivors and often the nickname 'soap' was used, because they were perceived as weak people who let the Nazis turn them into soap rather than fight and die honorably.

Can you see the irony in that? Piss now et al. have all been sired by the same group of people that used to label holocaust survivors as human dust and as soap.

[AsheDina]

I dont say words like this.

[DownwithIslam]

I certainly understand why people would feel uncomfortable with the use of that word but I have to say that the piss now video should have no influence on our actions. I will minimize the use of the word now that Chaim has ceased to use it but we have to remember that we only use that in reference to seriously evil jews.

[q_q_]

I am not sure how many of you have heard it- Ben Gurion used to refer to the refugees, survivors of the Holocaust as 'Human Dust' and he didn't even meant to insult, just to say that these are people that need to be reassign with a new identity of the new Hebrew that he wanted to create. But this kind of attitude lead to people in the early days to give a diminishing treatment to holocaust survivors and often the nickname 'soap' was used, because they were perceived as weak people who let the Nazis turn them into soap rather than fight and die honorably.

Can you see the irony in that? Piss now et al. have all been sired by the same group of people that used to label holocaust survivors as human dust and as soap.

I would describe the piss-now Jews as soap material.

How dare you say that Zelhar.. You spit in the face of the 6 million jews murdered by the Nazis.

They were also turned into soap.

I hate to say this but only an Israeli, and not many either, but only an Israeli would say that. An evil of secular zionism is that they viewed jews dying in the diaspora as as dust on the wheels of history. That was Ben Gurion at his worst.

And you have the sickness to think that Ben Gurion's statement is good..

As far as he was concerned the religious jews in poland that were murdered, were dust. He didn't want them.. They wanted to build a new jew, with no Torah.

Who are your parents and grandparents..  I'm guessing you are Israeli.  Are you Sefaradi?

Most jews in the diaspora at least, have relatives that died in the holocaust.
peoples 90 year old grandparents got here because their parents or grandparents, moved here and took them with them.  Many of their cousins stayed in poland or austria or germany and were made into soap..

How dare you talk about soap jews. You sound like a nazi.. I haven't even heard anti-semites use an expression like that.

Only the most self-hating of jews, Ben Gurion, would say jews (ones he didn't like - e.g. non zionist religious ones, ...), murdered in the holocaust,  are dust on the wheels of history. Only him or a nazi.

Who taught you this?! To refer to Ben Gurion's nasty statement in a positive way...  ? Your school? your parents?

A normal jew would never say such a thing.. imagine saying it to your grandparents.   I guess they didn't lose relatives..

I saw Israelis years ago when they visited the concentration camps.. making lots of noise. It was a disgrace.. That's secular zionist education for you. And you are an instance of it. I don't know how you stumbled on JTF.

How can you refer to any jews as soap jews when so many jews died and were turned into soap..  Were these soap jews too?  how sick.. I guess none were your relatives so you don't give a damn? 

i'm disgusted..

in the past you've merely shown lack of wisdom (with a high IQ in odd things like finding patterns in grids). But this is just sick.. it's not just lacking wisdom..  you are also a symptom of a sick education system.

[Zelhar]

OK q_q, thank you very much for the compliments and the constructive criticism.

Of course you completely, misunderstand what I say.

'Dust in the wheels of history' - that phrase came out of Weitznman's mouth in interview he gave in the 1930s. He referred to the Jews who were left in Europe as such, more specifically, I supposed he aimed at the primitive 'Osten Juden' of Poland and the USSR.

'Human Dust' is a term Ben Gurion used to describe the refugees after the holocaust. These are too different terms, both of whom show the lack of respect that these leaders had to their fellow Jews.

As for 'soap', this was a derogatory label that proud and strong 'new hebrew' people used at people coming from Europe who retained too much of the exile type manners. This term has for long become completely unacceptable.

So far I have just described facts.

Now for my opinion, I am going to be as exact as I can this time- piss now type of Jews are 'soap material'- they are literally assisting the Islamonazis to prepare a new holocaust for the Jews in Israel. They corrupt our youth, they pollute all the media, the beg for international pressure on Israel, they discourage the public from any action save for more retreats and submissions, they try to create indifference in the public for Iran's genocidal plans. I think that the life of my family, of me and of everyone I know are at stake. It is very possible that five years from now we will have died form radiation poisoning, blast or fire. 

Hence, I shall use any term that may make people aware to the very real danger we are facing. I also say these traitors should be gassed. And if there is a holocaust survivor among them, that's ashame that person has survived only to assist our current enemies bring a new holocaust on us, so too bad such a person have escaped the gas chambers because he deserved them.
Yet, my Judenrat scale has many degrees; to the people on its lower levels, where there is no outright treason and there is still hope for recovery, I have patience and I show respect dignity.

PS Don't project what you think of "the rude Israelis' on me or vice versa, you couldn't be less accurate.

PPS My family came from Europe and we have suffered our share of the disaster. Of course this is completely irrelevant.

[q_q_]

regardless of what you mean

many good jews were turned into soap, and the suggestion from the term soap jews, is disgusting. you are insulting **them**.

[mr. bungle]

My view is this: I have no problem with true defenders of Jews using "kike" in private, but I agree it should not be used in this forum.  I have decided for myself that it is wrong for me to use the word at all since I am not Jewish, and so I have stopped using the phrase "self-hating kike":  that is an entitlement I believe should be reserved for Jews themselves, angry at their betrayal at the hands of un-Jews.  However, I also believe we should be able to discuss this important matter without resorting to eupemisms such as the "K-word": we're all intelligent enough to understand their is a difference between saying or referencing a word and actually using it.  Otherwise, we sound like those whiny, self-worhsipping schvartzas, who think they're so important the word [censored] cannot be uttered on television, no matter what the context.

I hope we can cleanse this Jewish slur from the website without an imposed censor code.  It would be better if we could exercise restraint in this matter, and when a poster does use the word, we should inform them why we don't like its usage here.

[muman613]

zelhar,

You must not be religous because your understanding of Judaism seems a bit strange. You obviously have never read Torah or had a rabbi explain what a mitzvah is. This is just as sad to me as having Jews that hate judaism...

Primarily study these mitzvot:

1) DO NOT HATE YOUR BROTHER IN YOUR HEART:

http://www.simpletoremember.com/carlebach/hate.htm

Shlomo's teachings on Mitzva 238,
   "DON'T HATE YOUR BROTHER IN YOUR HEART"

   The mitzva in the Torah is "don't hate your brother in your
heart." If I hit someone, G-d forbid, am I violating the law of
not hating? The Rambam says you are not permitted to hit, but
not because of the mitzva against hatred. Not being permitted
to hit is another law. The law we're talking about is that you
are not permitted to hate in your heart. If I hit someone and I
hate him at the same time, I am violating two laws. You are not
permitted to hate, and you are not permitted to hit, but one
has nothing to do with the other.

  There were a few people who wrote down all 613 commandments.
Maimonides (Rambam) was one. Another was Chinuch, who was in
Spain later on, and he says hatred in the heart is the cause of a
lot of evil things between people. This is the cause of the "sword
between man and his brother." In those days people would tell on
each other to the police, give each other to the government. He
says this is the lowest and ugliest and most repulsive emotion
there can be in anyone who has a little bit of sense. The G'mora
says an evil eye, evil spirits, and hatred of people can mamaash
kill you. That can mean two things. If I fight with people there
might be a whole war, and I might be killed, but that is not the
real point. It is possible to die of hatred. It can eat up my
heart. I could hate someone so much I could get a heart attack,
just from hating. Overhating. Who is the strongest of the strong?
The strongest of the strong is someone who can love someone who
hates him. Turning the other cheek means I walk up to you and say,
"You hit me once, thank you, so hit me again." According to my
theory, if someone hits you, say, "Will you please take your paws
off." I'll tell you, if a little man hates me, should I hate him
back, because he hates me? He should cut me down to his size?

     The G'mora says something even stronger. When you hate
somebody you are mamash killing. You don't have to use a knife, you
know. Targum says something different. What is the law of not
hating your brother in your heart? According to Targum you are not
transgressing the law if you just hate someone. You are
transgressing the law when you tell someone you love him, but in
your heart you don't mean it. So according to him, hating your
brother in your heart means your mouth says something different
from what your heart feels. According to Maimonides, I trangress
whenever I hate somebody. If I hate five times a day, I transgress
five times a day. According to Jonathan I am only transgressing
this law if I talk to the person, but don't tell him I don't like him.
Jonathan says that when you hate, you are tearing out all that is
good in your soul. The goodness is completely destroyed by the hatred.

     Here is another interpretation of this mitzva. Since the Torah
says 'love your neighbor as yourself,' naturally you cannot hate.
You shouldn't have to say it, so why does the Torah say 'don't hate
your brother?' The contradicton probably didn't bother Maimonides
very much. There is one law of loving, and another against hating.
Targum was still bothered by the contradiction that if you have to
love, naturally you are not permitted to hate. His answer is that it
means that if you hate someone and you can't help it, don't lie and
say you like him. He also says it is talking about somebody who is
really bad, an evil person. It is permissible to hate someone like
that, but not in your heart. According to him I am transgressing if
I don't say, "Listen, I hate you because you did wrong." You can keep
the hatred if it is against evil, but not in your heart. Maimonides
also says you have to tell the person, "I hate you, and don't know
what to do." His point is that you have to try to get rid of the
hatred, because the Torah says we are not permitted to hate. Tell
the person, because how else can you get out of hatred? Telling is
the only way. Maybe I hate you because I think you did wrong, but
maybe I only know half the story. Probably 95% of the people hate
each other because they misjudge each other for one reason or another.

     The Yad HaK'tana, the 'little hand,' was another little holy man
who wrote down all 613 mitzvot, about four hundred years ago. He
says anything which you keep in your heart grows in a very deep
way. If you hate someone in your heart and you don't tell him, it
will grow until it will eat you up. If you tell the person, even if
you still hate him, at least the hatred won't grow, won't become
stronger. If you tell him, "I hate you," at least there is contact
between you. Then he says, "What do you do if you hate people for
no reason, and you can't get out of it?" The only way out is
loving people for no reason. Just love, because love is a very holy
fire that will drag out all the darkness of hatred.

2) Do not bear a grudge or take revenge:

http://www.torah.org/learning/jewish-values/revenge1.html

“Do not take revenge and do not bear a grudge against a member of your people.. ”1

It is inevitable in daily life that we sometimes feel slighted by other people - how should we react to such incidents? The Torah tells us that we may not take revenge or bear a grudge: The Talmud gives examples of these transgressions: John asks Brian, “can you please lend me your spade?” and Brian, for no apparent reason says “no”. The next day Brian asks to lend him something and John replies, “Just like you did not lend me what I asked for yesterday, so too I will not lend you what you want today.2 ”

Bearing a grudge is slightly different - after Brian refused to lend John his spade, Brian asks John to lend him something the next day/ This time, John says that “I will lend you it not like you who refused to lend me what I asked for yesterday.” Taking revenge is reacting with actions to our fellow\s refusal to help us. Bearing a grudge is merely feeling resentful to the person for his actions even though we do not actively take revenge.
.
.
.

3) DONT BE A TALEBEARER AGAINST YOUR PEOPLE

http://www.simpletoremember.com/carlebach/rekhilut.htm

Shlomo's teachings on Mitzva 236, "DON'T BE A TALEBEARER"

means don't go around spreading rumors about another. It
also comes from the word for drugstore, man, and perfume. There
is a good smell and an evil smell. Don't walk around with an evil
smell while with your people. If I walk around saying, "This one
did this, this one did that" I am really contaminating the air. It only
takes one person to contaminate a whole city. When someone is
spreading a lie, that is another transgression, but here we are talking
about the truth. Even if a tale is true, spreading it could still be
destroying the world. If someone says bad things about someone else
he transgresses this mitzva. It is a very grave sin which could kill
a lot of people. You can tell people so much evil about a person that
they will literally kill him.

There is truth, and there is the truth of the truth. One Shabbos Rav
Kuk hailed a cab and got in. That's all you need for a good rumor.
Rav Kuk, the Chief Rabbi of Israel travelling in a cab on Shabbos.
What was the real story, the truth of the truth? The English had
caught somebody they said was a spy. At one o'clock Rav Kuk heard
that they were going to shoot him at two o'clock. There is no question
that he should take a cab to the police station to tell them not to shoot him.

Why did the Vilna Gaon excommunicate, put a cherem on the Chassidim?
People told him two stories that were true, but were only half the
truth. First they said the Chassidim ate on Tisha B'Av, the day of the
destruction of the Holy Temple, which is a fast day. The truth is that
year Tisha B'Av was on a Shabbos and the fast was postponed to Sunday.
So it was true that they ate on Tisha B'Av,
but it was okay. The other story they told was that on Simchas
Torah they saw the Chassidim dancing around a woman, which
they shouldn't do. That story was also true, but the truth of the
truth tells more. It so happened that the Baal Shem Tov was
dancing so much that he fainted. He was lying on the floor, and
his daughter Udele brought him a pillow so he would feel better
as he lay there resting. In the meantime he told the Chassidim,
"Don't stop. Keep dancing." So Udele was standing in the middle
next to the Baal Shem Tov and the Chassidim were dancing. It is
true they were dancing around a woman, but it also wasn't true.
People are so into telling the truth about someone else when it
could be the dirtiest lies in the world.

     There are three levels of talebearing. Imagine someone says,
"Shlomo told me he doesn't like you." It is a lie, but it is possible.
That is not so horrible yet, because he only quoted what I said.
Imagine he would tell you, "You know, Shlomo is rotten to the
core." That is not reporting what I said, but what he thinks of me.
That is worse, even if it is true. The lowest level is if it is not
true. It is possible that what he said really struck something
inside you, so if it is true it is not so terrible. If he made it
up, that means he is really at the bottom of evil. How does he even
come to think of such a thing? These are the three levels. The first
level is to report what a person said. If it is true, it is bad; if it is
not true, it is very low. The second level is to spread rumors not
about what he said, but about what he is. If it is true it is very bad,
but if it is a lie, that is the third level, the lowest a person can go.

     The G'mora says something hard to believe. Serving idols,
committing adultery and killing are very bad, but speaking evil is
worse than committing all of them. It says when you talk evil about
another person, you have to know you really don't believe in G-d. You
can walk around with tallis and t'fillin and wear a big shtreimel, but
if you can utter an evil word about somebody else, you really don't
believe in G-d. It is heartbreaking to know.

     The Rambam says something strong. There are some people who
don't want to say lashen harah, evil speech, so they say something
good, like "he's such a great scholar, and the way he knows Talmud is
great." Someone else says, "What? Moishe knows the whole Taimud?"
The man made somebody else say it,and then he says, "I didn't know
I thought he does." He wants someone to say something bad about
Moishe, but he is so holy he doesn't want it to be him. He says
something good, and the other says something bad. Maimonides says
not to kid yourself. G-d knows what you are doing.

     The term lashon harah applies only if no one knows about
something. Anything which is public is not on the level of talking
evil because it is not disclosing secrets. Also, if somebody does
something in public, discussing it is not lashon harah. If it is done
in public then the person doesn't care if people know. The law of
talking evil is only about something which is not known. For
instance, suppose I smoke a cigarette on Shabbos in America, then
I come to Israel, nobody knows me, and I want to start life over
again. If someone comes to Israel and says, "In New York I saw him
smoking on Shabbos," that is lashon harah, because people didn't know about it.

     You are not permitted to live in the same neighborhood with
someone who talks lashon harah, and you are definitely not
permitted to sit at the same table. The G'mora says that people who
speak evil cannot behold the face of G-d, cannot have a revelation of
G-d. G-d cannot reveal Himself to them. This is a deep rabbinic
question. The G'mora says that G-d says about anyone who speaks
evil, "he and I cannot live together." Maimonides says you have to
move out of the neighborhood, and he quotes a G'mora which says
that even G-d doesn't want to live in an evil-speaker's neighborhood.
So to speak, G-d has to move out; G-d can't stand it. That means one
person can destroy the whole city.
.
.
.