Hunting

[muman613]

I don't think you meant to be offensive Rubystars.  You shouldn't have to be apologize.  You are just speaking to things you like.  You are not trying to tease anyone.  I understand how you feel Muman, but we need to coexist here.  We can't walk on eggshells all the time.

Is this a Jewish website? Shouldn't people be considerate of Jewish religious observance? I dont think that is asking too much.

EDIT: Let's not make a mountain out of a molehill...

[~Hanna~]

At least we all know we can AGREE on the allowed food at least, from the Tanach, right?

Let's find what we can AGREE on....!

 

[Mishmaat]

muman, your level of arrogance bothers me tremendously. Gentiles are not required to keep Kosher.

When a Gentile talks about eating a ham and cheese sandwich, or even a turkey and cheese sandwich, it doesn't bother me. It actually instills within me a tremendous level of discipline. By the way, I don't want to hear the argument about "temptation" because quite frankly no Jew who keeps Kashrut will all of a sudden pick up a chicken and provolone sandwich after reading a message on this forum.

[New Yorker]

What is the source of the no dairy with meat rule?

[Lisa]

What is the source of the no dairy with meat rule?

Thou shall not seethe a kid in its mother's milk.  (I think that comes from the book of Numbers, but I'm not positive.)

[Mishmaat]

"Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk" (Exodus/Shemot 23:19 & 34:26).

Also, here's a good article from JewFAQ.org:

http://www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm#Separation

[Lisa]

Also New Yorker, as Chaim explained on a past Ask JTF show, milk represents life.  It's what a cub or pup drinks from its mother to grow big and healthy.  Blood represents death because if you lose enough of it, you're dead.  So in Judaism we don't mix the two.  

[muman613]

muman, your level of arrogance bothers me tremendously. Gentiles are not required to keep Kosher.

When a Gentile talks about eating a ham and cheese sandwich, or even a turkey and cheese sandwich, it doesn't bother me. It actually instills within me a tremendous level of discipline. By the way, I don't want to hear the argument about "temptation" because quite frankly no Jew who keeps Kashrut will all of a sudden pick up a chicken and provolone sandwich after reading a message on this forum.

Mishmaat,

You obviously have not been paying attention to the thread. I NEVER said that non-Jews should observe Kashrut. I simply asked for non-Jews to be sensitive to Jews who are trying to keep Kosher. I didn't grow up keeping Kosher and am having a difficult time keeping these laws. I like Bacon Cheeseburgers and ham sandwiches. I haven't eaten either in over six years now.

You must not know many Baal Teshuvas who didn't grow up keeping Kosher. I think it is not sensitive to us who are keeping these laws.

PS: Dont tell me you are not hungry when you smell bacon cooking in the morning.

PPS: In a supportive religious environment people should not speak about things which may tempt others to violate the mitzvot. I realize JTF is not really a Jewish organization, more like a meeting place for pro-Israel people, but regardless we should respect the laws. Why doesn't JTF operate on Shabbat? Because we don't want to lead a jew to violate Shabbat. Why don't we advertise Pork chops? Because it may be seen by a Jew and they will think it is kosher {among other reasons}.

[New Yorker]

Also New Yorker, as Chaim explained on a past Ask JTF show, milk represents life.  It's what a cub or pup drinks from its mother to grow big and healthy.  Blood represents death because if you lose enough of it, you're dead.  So in Judaism we don't mix the two.  

That is very profound; It's fascinating to see the reasoning.

I found it interesting that so many very specific rules came out of the one line "Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk", taken literally, it's very easy to not "cook a kid in the milk of it's mother". Was that the original intention of that line?  Because this has been expanded upon, to include all meat, and all dairy, some take it so far as to separate dishes into "meat" and "dairy" only, etc.

Or is it possible there's been a bit of expansion of the rule out of pios exuberance over the ages?

I don't know any religious people other than you guys to ask, so it's good for me to have this resource, I like understanding the reasoning behind things.

[Lisa]

Also New Yorker, as Chaim explained on a past Ask JTF show, milk represents life.  It's what a cub or pup drinks from its mother to grow big and healthy.  Blood represents death because if you lose enough of it, you're dead.  So in Judaism we don't mix the two.  

That is very profound; It's fascinating to see the reasoning.

I found it interesting that so many very specific rules came out of the one line "Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk", taken literally, it's very easy to not "cook a kid in the milk of it's mother". Was that the original intention of that line?  Because this has been expanded upon, to include all meat, and all dairy, some take it so far as to separate dishes into "meat" and "dairy" only, etc.

Or is it possible there's been a bit of expansion of the rule out of pios exuberance over the ages?

I don't know any religious people other than you guys to ask, so it's good for me to have this resource, I like understanding the reasoning behind things.

There are also laws in Numbers about now slaughtering an animal in front its mother, and I think vice versa.  As for cooking the kid in its mother's milk, I believe that concept is most likely expanded upon in the Talmud, which is the Jewish Oral Law, which was given to Moses along with the written law.  The Oral Laws expand upon and tell us how to follow the written laws in various situations.  For instance, the Talmud will explain the exact method of slaughtering an animal as painlessly as possible.  It even describes how the knife is to be shaped.  The Talmud also explains how a Jewish wedding ceremony is to be conducted, which is not covered in the Torah. 

I hope that kind of explains things. 

[muman613]

Also New Yorker, as Chaim explained on a past Ask JTF show, milk represents life.  It's what a cub or pup drinks from its mother to grow big and healthy.  Blood represents death because if you lose enough of it, you're dead.  So in Judaism we don't mix the two.  

That is very profound; It's fascinating to see the reasoning.

I found it interesting that so many very specific rules came out of the one line "Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk", taken literally, it's very easy to not "cook a kid in the milk of it's mother". Was that the original intention of that line?  Because this has been expanded upon, to include all meat, and all dairy, some take it so far as to separate dishes into "meat" and "dairy" only, etc.

Or is it possible there's been a bit of expansion of the rule out of pios exuberance over the ages?

I don't know any religious people other than you guys to ask, so it's good for me to have this resource, I like understanding the reasoning behind things.

No it is not religous exuberance, whatever that is.

The laws concerning Kashrut were given to the Jewish people at Mount Sinai. We have two Torahs, the written Torah and the Oral Torah. The laws concerning meat and milk were part of the Oral Tradition passed down from Sinai.

The idolators used to boil a baby in its mothers milk as part of their service to alien gods. We are commanded not to engage in the activities that idolators take part in.

See Ask Moses: http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/146,276/Why-cant-I-eat-meat-and-milk-together.html

Why can't I eat meat and milk together?

A. The Torah states1, "Do not cook a kid in its' mother's milk".

B. From this prohibition (Negative Mitzvah #187, to be exact), The Rabbis derived the halachah (Jewish law) that any meat product may not be eaten with any dairy product. (From the same passage is derived Negative Mitzvah #186, which separately prohibits cooking, baking or otherwise mixing meat and dairy products together.)

C. So what's so terrible about eating meat and milk together? What's G-d's problem with it? We don't begin to know the whole of it, and we are glad to do it as a Divine decree!2  Nonetheless, some insight into this decree has been shed and here is a Kabbalistic perspective: milk symbolizes life and meat symbolizes death, and combining the two creates a spiritual clash in the celestial realms both of your soul and in the worlds beyond us.

How do I avoid eating meat and milk together?

1. Segregation in the Service

Not eating meat and milk together begins with avoiding situations that might bring the two together in the first place. So start with a kosher kitchen--such a place contains two separate countertop workspaces, and two separate closet spaces each containing a complete set of dishes, cutlery, pots and pans and utensils. According to physics (and you can ask Julia Child about this), metals (and certainly woods) can "absorb" and become impregnated with the "flavors" or residues of the foods prepared with or in them. Thus, your favorite meat stew pot may not be used to make real hot cocoa (which calls for hot milk), because the cocoa milk would have meaty overtones. Additionally, you'll need separate ovens, microwaves and stovetop burners for meat and dairy products, respectively. (Many kosher kitchens simply have two separate ovens.)

2. Take Your Time

After enjoying a hearty pastrami sandwich or any other meat product, halachah rules that you must wait a minimum of six hours before falling upon your beloved mozzarella. Here, human biology comes into play: since it takes the stomach about six hours to fully digest the proteins known as meats, if any dairy product enters the stomach during that time, the stomach will process and churn both foods together. Jewish law considers this to be eating meat and milk together, so do hold off on the pizza if you've just wolfed down a steak.

The situation generally works the same in reverse--you must wait some time after dairy stuff before you eat meat. Some dairy products wend their way through the digestive system faster, so one would only have to wait a few minutes, or an hour, after eating them before moving on to meat. Some cheeses, though, like aged or fine Swiss cheeses, do take six hours to fully break down and absorb into the body, so you may have to wait that long for your pastrami sandwich if you just enjoyed some fine Wisconsin fare.

3. Ask a Rabbi

There are tons of culinary situations that arise in the frenzied, messy madness we know as home cooking--with a rabbinical response for each. What if you put a milk-only fork in a bubbling pot full of hot dogs? How about if you baked some Eggplant Parmesan in your meat oven? That's just a rabbi is for, and it should come as no surprise that two of the four huge sections of halachah whose knowledge is de regeur for rabbi wannabes deal exclusively with meat and milk issues. So if you've got a question about your kosher kitchen, either AskMoses or contact your local Chabad rabbi via chabad.org.

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/146,276/Why-cant-I-eat-meat-and-milk-together.html

[New Yorker]

Also New Yorker, as Chaim explained on a past Ask JTF show, milk represents life.  It's what a cub or pup drinks from its mother to grow big and healthy.  Blood represents death because if you lose enough of it, you're dead.  So in Judaism we don't mix the two.  

That is very profound; It's fascinating to see the reasoning.

I found it interesting that so many very specific rules came out of the one line "Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk", taken literally, it's very easy to not "cook a kid in the milk of it's mother". Was that the original intention of that line?  Because this has been expanded upon, to include all meat, and all dairy, some take it so far as to separate dishes into "meat" and "dairy" only, etc.

Or is it possible there's been a bit of expansion of the rule out of pios exuberance over the ages?

I don't know any religious people other than you guys to ask, so it's good for me to have this resource, I like understanding the reasoning behind things.

No it is not religous exuberance, whatever that is.

The laws concerning Kashrut were given to the Jewish people at Mount Sinai. We have two Torahs, the written Torah and the Oral Torah. The laws concerning meat and milk were part of the Oral Tradition passed down from Sinai.

The idolators used to boil a baby in its mothers milk as part of their service to alien gods. We are commanded not to engage in the activities that idolators take part in.

Religious exuberance is just like it sounds, when someone goes over the top with being religious, that person does what is required and then goes further, sometimes to the point of being ridiculous.

The Oral Torah, okay, I've never heard the Oral Torah. I only have access to the written Torah.

[q_q_]

Also New Yorker, as Chaim explained on a past Ask JTF show, milk represents life.  It's what a cub or pup drinks from its mother to grow big and healthy.  Blood represents death because if you lose enough of it, you're dead.  So in Judaism we don't mix the two.  

That is very profound; It's fascinating to see the reasoning.

I found it interesting that so many very specific rules came out of the one line "Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk", taken literally, it's very easy to not "cook a kid in the milk of it's mother". Was that the original intention of that line?  Because this has been expanded upon, to include all meat, and all dairy, some take it so far as to separate dishes into "meat" and "dairy" only, etc.

Or is it possible there's been a bit of expansion of the rule out of pios exuberance over the ages?

I don't know any religious people other than you guys to ask, so it's good for me to have this resource, I like understanding the reasoning behind things.

oral law is the source.

the written torah just has brief points, it' s not the source.

Most of the oral law is from sinai.. some is later The 7 rabbinical mitzvot and the many rabbinical laws to act as a fence(a tadition from, sinai giives rabbis permission)..  BUT, I think that one about not eating milk and meat together was a sinai one..  The rabbinical aspect makjing it stricter is over how long to wait between them.

[muman613]

http://www.mesora.org/milk&meat.html

 
Question: When you say kosher observance does this mean you have two dishwashers and two sets of dishes and two ovens?
 
Mesora: We don't mix meat and milk, be it the food, or the dishes - having separate dishes is simply a protective law against actually mixing the two foods.
 
The foods have no inherent problem if they are mixed, but not mixing meat and milk is based on one of the most basic principles in Judaism, that is, the abolition of anything idolatrous. Since Judaism has at its core the concept of monotheism, the concept of stone idols is ridiculous, and patently against any reason. All matter was created, so matter itself cannot have power over other things, as Something external to itself brought it into existence. Its very existence was willed by G-d, as well as all its properties. G-d therefore is the only being Who can alter natural laws.
 
There were many idolatrous nations from times beginning until now, and Judaism has many laws opposing such false notions. One of their practices was to cook a calf in its mother milk, as they felt there was some mystical synergy achieved thereby. Similarly, they would sit around pots of blood - believing that the slain animal's spirit would somehow enter them or benefit them. To counter these practices, the Jewish law includes prohibition from mixing milk and meat, and eating anything with blood in it, unless it was salted properly to extract the blood.
 
Prohibitions as these therefore serve to raise our awareness of corrupt ideas. As all laws aim at the education and benefit of man - a thinking being - and increasing his perception of what truth is, we therefore must know what is fallacy, and steer clear.

[Mishmaat]

Mishmaat,

You obviously have not been paying attention to the thread. I NEVER said that non-Jews should observe Kashrut. I simply asked for non-Jews to be sensitive to Jews who are trying to keep Kosher. I didn't grow up keeping Kosher and am having a difficult time keeping these laws. I like Bacon Cheeseburgers and ham sandwiches. I haven't eaten either in over six years now.

You must not know many Baal Teshuvas who didn't grow up keeping Kosher. I think it is not sensitive to us who are keeping these laws.

PS: Dont tell me you are not hungry when you smell bacon cooking in the morning.

PPS: In a supportive religious environment people should not speak about things which may tempt others to violate the mitzvot. I realize JTF is not really a Jewish organization, more like a meeting place for pro-Israel people, but regardless we should respect the laws. Why doesn't JTF operate on Shabbat? Because we don't want to lead a jew to violate Shabbat. Why don't we advertise Pork chops? Because it may be seen by a Jew and they will think it is kosher {among other reasons}.

I know you never said that. I said it.

I fully support your effort to keep Kosher. 100%. But don't you think the comparison of a pork chop ad to an innocuous post about a non-Kosher sandwich is a little bit far fetched? I do.

I never get hungry when I smell bacon (or sausages). May Hashem be my witness. I do have a weakness for steak though.

My typical Sunday breakfast consists of a glass of green tea with two teaspoons of brown sugar, a tall glass of "Simply Apple" apple juice, a whole wheat bagel with natural strawberry jam, a banana or an orange, a bowl of cereal with 2% milk and a Vitamin Water.

If I didn't consume chicken and turkey, I'd be a vegetarian.

I've been shomer Kashrut since I was a young teenager.

[New Yorker]

"I never get hungry when I smell bacon (or sausages). May Hashem be my witness. I do have a weakness for steak though."

Steak is Kosher.   

[Mishmaat]

I know. It's not too healthy though. I try to eat healthy.

[New Yorker]

I know. It's not too healthy though. I try to eat healthy.

LOL okay then! 

[q_q_]

<snip>
My typical Sunday breakfast consists of a glass of green tea with two teaspoons of brown sugar, a tall glass of "Simply Apple" apple juice, a whole wheat bagel with natural strawberry jam, a banana or an orange, a bowl of cereal with 2% milk and a Vitamin Water.
<snip>

how much sugar do you consume from your apple juice.. which is also -very- acidic no doubt.

if you want to minimize the fat in milk, you can go for fully skimmed milk.

I won't ask you how much you weigh.

You sound like a fat person trying to eat healthily. You have a taste for sugar which you indulge yourself in. A banana is more than sweet enough!

[zachor_ve_kavod]

My wife's brothers all go hunting.  They need to, to get through the winter.  They also fish and trap.

[Mishmaat]

q_q_, there's 28 g of sugar in a 240 ml glass of apple juice. Also, in the VitaminWater there's slightly less than 33 g of sugar in a 591 ml bottle.

I'm trying to make that transition from drinking low fat milk to skim milk.

Despite the fact that you didn't ask I weigh about 80 kg. I'm actually fairly thin. I have a fast metabolism.

EDIT: Minor correction. Grams, not milligrams.

[Lisa]

q_q, calling Mishmaat a fat person trying to eat healthy is really not nice.  So why don't you just relax, instead of nit-picking everyone's posts? 

[Mishmaat]

No harm done Lisa. I thought that particular post was funny.

[Dan]

q_q, calling Mishmaat a fat person trying to eat healthy is really not nice.  So why don't you just relax, instead of nit-picking everyone's posts? 

Right on Lisa!
                   I already told q_q to chill, once...

[q_q_]

q_q, calling Mishmaat a fat person trying to eat healthy is really not nice.  So why don't you just relax, instead of nit-picking everyone's posts? 

Lisa, calling a man fat is not like calling a woman fat.

And the way I said it was purely factual.

You may not know that calling a man "thin" could be just as insulting perhaps worse, than calling a man "fat". This is a man-man discussion you have run into and it's out of your depth.

And there is nothing for me to "chill" about since I am actually not angry with anything mishmaat has said.