Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Hakamim that rejected Kabbalah
muman613:
--- Quote from: Pheasant on January 15, 2009, 02:07:22 PM ---If this is practical Kabbalah, you should stay away from it.
Nobody can control this spiritual beings and I really didn't see the profit in the attempt.
--- End quote ---
What makes you say this?
I have just heard in a Shuir I was listening to that Yaakov was able to summon the angels {Molochs} which he sent to meet Eisav. There are Tzadiks who can gain control over the spiritual beings. Also remember that Yaakov wrestled with the angel of Eisav.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: sefardic panther ---The Morrocan Yehudim and Temani were big into Practical Kabbalah. Is it possible that Rabbi Yihyah Gafekh and other Hakamim that rejected Kabbalah knew that Kabbalah was real but publicly rejected it to try to put an end to the widespread use of Practical Kabbalah?
--- End quote ---
sefardic panther - it's possible that the world was just created 5 seconds ago, and all that you've experienced is just a memory.
But you have to base things on evidence.
You could also accuse rabbi bar hayyim of being a secret kabbalist.. but just not publicising it because he thinks it should not be publicised. And criticising aspects of it because he wants to turn people away from it because he thinks it's not for them.
Just take rabbis for what they say.. And if you think they are lying or playing psychological games, then avoid them. The only ones that lie or play psychological games, are kabbalists that deflect any criticism by saying that their opponents are really kabbalists. They can turn the whole thing into a cosmic battle. Setting themselves up so that they can't be disproven. And idiot followers say "maybe, maybe". Maybe there's a pink elephant circling your head. Oh, you can't see it? It's invisible. Oh, you can't smell it? It has a bath every day.
If you have no evidence, then at least be plausible.. It is plausible that some intelligent people have fooled themselves into believing something about hte cosmic world that is false.. And it is not plausible that any rabbi that writes strongly against kabbalah, arguing against doctrines, really agrees with them!
Why don't you say that Rabbi Bar Hayyim is a closet kabbalist.
Judeanoncapta is close to him.. Rabbi Bar Hayyim would reject what you say. Judea would reject what you say. Anybody who has heard rabbi bar hayyim would know how ridiculous what you say is.
But you could say "maybe".. I think rabbi bar hayyim might say "what can I say to such a person".
You are a fool. And I mean that, very sensibly. In the sense that an intelligent person can be a fool. Like the RAMBAM referred to fools and ignoramouses. Not in the secular sense of like somebody that goes around with a balloon on their head blowing a whistle.
--- Quote from: sephardic panther ---Afterall such Hakamim were going against the grain and I am sure they did not think they were bigger than the Ramban.
--- End quote ---
you know what.. we dealt with this argument already.
I'm sure that we are all better endowed than you, so just don't mess with people here and stop repeating this.
Ulli:
--- Quote from: muman613 on January 15, 2009, 03:58:26 PM ---
--- Quote from: Pheasant on January 15, 2009, 02:07:22 PM ---If this is practical Kabbalah, you should stay away from it.
Nobody can control this spiritual beings and I really didn't see the profit in the attempt.
--- End quote ---
What makes you say this?
I have just heard in a Shuir I was listening to that Yaakov was able to summon the angels {Molochs} which he sent to meet Eisav. There are Tzadiks who can gain control over the spiritual beings. Also remember that Yaakov wrestled with the angel of Eisav.
--- End quote ---
What Yaakov did was different. The meeting came to him. He did not call for it. It was alone G-d's will.
Perhaps G-d listens to the prayers of Zaddiks more than to the prayers of normal man, but what do you think of the banning of sorcery in the books of Moses. And I remember that Saul was killed by his enemies after he went to the female evocator to call Samuel.
Please answer me a question. What is the sense of trying to call and command spiritual beeings?
Imo the ruling of the sphere is nothing for us.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Pheasant on January 15, 2009, 04:12:56 PM ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on January 15, 2009, 03:58:26 PM ---
--- Quote from: Pheasant on January 15, 2009, 02:07:22 PM ---If this is practical Kabbalah, you should stay away from it.
Nobody can control this spiritual beings and I really didn't see the profit in the attempt.
--- End quote ---
What makes you say this?
I have just heard in a Shuir I was listening to that Yaakov was able to summon the angels {Molochs} which he sent to meet Eisav. There are Tzadiks who can gain control over the spiritual beings. Also remember that Yaakov wrestled with the angel of Eisav.
--- End quote ---
What Yaakov did was different. The meeting came to him. He did not call for it. It was alone G-d's will.
Perhaps G-d listens to the prayers of Zaddiks more than to the prayers of normal man, but what do you think of the banning of sorcery in the books of Moses. And I remember that Saul was killed by his enemies after he went to the female evocator to call Samuel.
Please answer me a question. What is the sense of trying to call and command spiritual beeings?
Imo the ruling of the sphere is nothing for us.
--- End quote ---
It is my understanding of Emmunah that I see every messenger in this world as if he/she/it is an angel from Hashem. Everything comes from him and it is my responsibility to seek the meaning in the message. I believe that Practical Kabbalah assists a man to see Hashems hand in all creation and in all historical events.
I have not yet begun to read this sefer I bought from Feldheim press but I will possibly start reading it next week.
http://www.feldheim.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=1-58330-893-8&type=store&category=search
It is called 'Living Kabbalah : A guide to the Sabbath and Festivals in the teachings of Rabbi Refael Moshe Luria' and it disucusses the Secrets of Shabbat Kodesh.
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
If someone knows hebrew their is an article that can be sent about Kabbalah and why it is true. ( I didn't read it- I dont understand Hebrew well) But either way, right now I am completly impartial to the subject, I dont reject, nor do I accept. ( I can send both views of for and agains't).
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