Palestinians in Lebanon.

[lebanese]

I always read and hear about pressures on the Lebanese government to nationalize its Palestinians. I really cannot understand why Lebanon should nationalize them. These people created a war in Lebanon, used Lebanon as their military base against Israel. They are also a threat to our communitarian system, a threat to the security of both Lebanon and Israel ( admit that they will never be controlled ). Lebanon has also the highest density and is so small and not rich at all to absorb them. So how come the world will never understand that nationalizing them in Lebanon is a danger to the peace in the Middle East? Why don't this world and the United States try to disperse them in many countries?

[q_q_]

interesting.. I hadn't heard about that in british media. where have you heard it?

I see an article about it in the NYT

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/world/middleeast/06lebanon.html?pagewanted=print

what is the history of these refugees?
they're meant to be arabs in israel, that fled

with the one in that story , it says "Mr. Hamdallah did not flee when Israel was formed over the former Palestine in 1948"

if he didn't flee, he'd be an "israeli arab" surely.  would he have fled in 1967?

it has him fleeing jordan for lebanon (the month of black september).


I guess british media don't want to talk about arab human rights violations!
"
“They are not persons in front of the law,” said Stéphane Jacquemet, regional representative for the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees in Lebanon. “They live in camps, don’t have access to services, schools, hospitals, and strictly speaking a person with no documents can be arrested.  "
"
Palestinian refugees have been denied citizenship in Lebanon for years, and they are prohibited from practicing more than 70 professions
"

Fact is, they don't deserve human rights..

"
. Hamdallah was one of those militants. He arrived in Lebanon when the Palestine Liberation Organization — then ensconced in southern Lebanon — was at the height of its power, and so he never thought about legalizing his status.

“The revolution was strong, I was strong,” Mr. Hamdallah said in an interview. “I never thought about identification papers or what would happen to me and to my children without them.”

But when the P.L.O. was driven out of Lebanon in 1982, “I started pitying myself,”

...
"
Mr. Hamdallah did not flee when Israel was formed over the former Palestine in 1948, and so he and his family did not meet the United Nations definition of Palestinian refugees. In Lebanon, the P.L.O. was blamed for igniting civil war, and so Mr. Hamdallah, like others with his background, were not welcomed.
"


All the way up to 1982, did israel touch lebanon?
I read about the 1967 war being on 3 fronts. egypt, jordan, syria.  Did lebanon attack israel in 1967?
I know that israel didn't occupy lebanon in 48 or 67.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Lebanese, there is no such thing as a Palestinian. Please do not use this phony propaganda term here.

[TheCoon]

The only thing keeping the palis from going berserk in Lebanon is that they know Hizbullah will massacre them if they ever truly pose a threat.

[GoIsraelGo!]

Lebanese, there is no such thing as a Palestinian. Please do not use this phony propaganda term here.

Palestinian is another name for terrorist. Correct C.F. ^5


                                                                                 Shalom - Dox

[q_q_]

Let's just focus on intelligent discussion first..

one can put palestinian in quotes, "palestinian"

it refers to arabs that fled israel in 1948 or 1967, the ones that stayed are usually referred to as "israeli-arabs".  It's good to know what arabs you are talking about, even though an arab is an arab. They live in different areas at different times and have their own issues.

let's not get diverted..

You are in a unique situation to explain the situation of what is happening in Lebanon.

Lebanese: Can you explain the situation in lebanon, for example, syrian occupation. What did it involve.. Human rights violations e.t.c.
How did life compare before and after?
What would nationalizing them do to lebanon?
(nationalized or not, they would hate israel)
How were things before the 1970s, compared to after the syrian occupation?

[lebanese]

Let's just focus on intelligent discussion first..

one can put palestinian in quotes, "palestinian"

it refers to arabs that fled israel in 1948 or 1967, the ones that stayed are usually referred to as "israeli-arabs".  It's good to know what arabs you are talking about, even though an arab is an arab. They live in different areas at different times and have their own issues.

let's not get diverted..

You are in a unique situation to explain the situation of what is happening in Lebanon.

Lebanese: Can you explain the situation in lebanon, for example, syrian occupation. What did it involve.. Human rights violations e.t.c.
How did life compare before and after?
What would nationalizing them do to lebanon?
(nationalized or not, they would hate israel)
How were things before the 1970s, compared to after the syrian occupation?


Oh.. This seems to be a very long discussion. I can say briefly that I mean the Palestinians who came to Lebanon in 1948. They had children in Lebanon. They were 160,000 I guess now they are half a million.
Regarding the Human Rights violations, I think that the Syrian presence in Lebanon was the worst period that Lebanon would have ever been through. I can't imagine any nation in the world that would have suffered what Lebanon has suffered from the Syrians. They "began" interfering in the war of Lebanon in 1976 when they entered Lebanon as peacemakers. Basically, they were always the country from which the Palestinians used to receive their weapons from Russia and maybe from other countries. You should of course know that the Palestinian presence in Lebanon and the Henry Kissinger plan to remove the Christians of Lebanon who have been in Lebanon for thousands of years before Jesus even came and to join the Lebanese diaspora. (Lebanon has a huge diaspora that is maybe 5 times more than the residents in Lebanon). Syria committed a lot of atrocity crimes, mainly against the Christians in Lebanon. (the massacre of Damour as an eg). From what I think is that Syria prefers a Lebanon in trouble to justify its presence in Lebanon or a supposed reoccupation. The occupation of Lebanon after the end of the 1990 war was till 2005. Syria established a government completely in its hands. The government was a very corrupt one. The debt raised from 1 billion or more to 50 billions now. Syria terrorized the Lebanese. They used to try to stop any demonstration against them, they have many detainees in their prisons(mainly from the Lebanese army who tried to resist them in 1990 before the end of the war).. Lebanon was so dirty during their presence. You would see the streets full of Syrian workers. Many believe that the workers are sometimes more intelligence agents than simple workers. Because many of them don't even work in Lebanon. I remember when I used to protest against them being very harshly treated. Of course since Im a girl and I wasnt as courageous as the others, I wasnt beaten but they used to throw on us very cold water with an extremely high pressure(the one of the fire extinguisher). And this was few years ago and we were very young!!! Also, many believe that a lot of Lebanon's monuments are in the hands of Lebanese officials and Syrian ones also.

Syria used the Palestinian presence to weaken Lebanon. The war in 1975 began when the Palestinians under Yasser Arafat control shot many Christian Lebanese. Then the lebanese forces fired a palestinian bus. After that, the muslims did not take a clear position with the christians. they fough on the palestinian side.

What I believe of the nationalisation of the palestinians today is that it is a big danger to Lebanon. In Jordan, they were screwed. In Lebanon, they took advantage of our hospitality. I think that Lebanon is dense, small, has a very complex communitary system, and is a very fragile country. The Palestinians are still not respecting Lebanon integrity. Look at what happened between the Lebanese army and the Palestinians few months ago. Also, the Palestinians will never change their attitude towards Lebanon. They never respected our integrity and will always take advantage of the weak state of Lebanon to launch operations against Israel. It is so hard to stop them. That's why the best solution is to put them out of Lebanon. and to dismantle them into various countries.

The past should not be revived.

[lebanese]

Lebanon before 1970s was called Paris and Switzerland of the East. We used to be a rich and developed country with a very strong banking system. Beyrouth was mother of legislations during the Roman Empire.

What nationalizing the Palestinians do to Lebanon:

Before reading, keep in mind that Lebanon was the worst place for the Palestinians after the end of the war. because there is a lot of hatred against them, and that all the communities agree that they do not them, except maybe for some fanatic Sunnis, Lebanon has given them no rights. Lebanon was basically afraid that once these people have the right to work, to own a property, they may have in the future more privileges and become citizens(like in Jordan).
1- Muslim state.
2- A more radicalist and arabic state. Lebanon would stop being the country of various and different cultures.
3- Great danger to Lebanon security. Take the other arab countries as an example? Why do you think you have peace with them? It is because they have dictatorial regimes. In Lebanon, it is more democratic. They can have influence on the relations between Lebanon and Israel. Even though with the rising of an arabism in Lebanon, and even though Lebanon becomes a dictatorial state, the question is which dictatory? Is it the Palestinian or the Lebanese muslim one? The past events of the 2008 year with some Palestinians showed us how string they are. They can have a putsch.
4- Lebanon had suffered from economic problems during the Syrian occupation. This extra small country should give priority to the 20 million Lebanese (of course not all of them), give the priority to the Lebanese since Lebanon is to be governed by the Lebanese not by the Palestinians.
5- Lebanon is the most densely populated country in the arab world.
etc. etc.

[lebanese]

q q

Regarding the criminality of the Palestinians, many of them if not most of their men are criminals. They were the major actor against the Lebanese in the beginning of the war. Read what the man said about the revolution. It is the revolution from Lebanon that was against the Lebanese during the 1975-1990 war in Lebanon. The media doesn't want to be objective. In many countries, the media is blaming Lebanon for its mistreatment of the Palestinians. This media does not mention why this is like this. How many families have been killed. the media does not mention the system of terror of the Palestinians in beirut, of the bloody Yasser Arafat. The media simply does not care and does not want to learn from the past. LEBANON IS NOT THE RIGHT PLACE FOR THE PALESTINIANS.

[lebanese]

Excuse me for my english. Since I speak more french or arabic:)

[Zelhar]

I don't care what befalls the fakenstinians in Lebanon or anywhere. The same goes for any other quranimal beast living there. If and when the Jewish people liberates their ancestral lands in Lebanon then all quranimals will be forced to leave as well as any Christian who supports them.

[IsraelForever]

I love that picture Zelhar.  There's a prime example of the "picture is worth a thousand words" quote.

[lebanese]

Zelhar I dont know what.. I was simply not talking to you.. I am just addressing the post to people who are more civilized than you. Mainly qq..

Don't put your nose, fanatic stupid....

[Spectator]

The main problem is not "palestinians". The real problem is Israeli ruling elite that does not believe in the simple fact that G-d gave us the Land of Israel. Divine Torah is our ultimate right and obligation to live and rule in the Land of Israel, not UN, US, Russia or any other.

Israeli goverment betrayed South Lebanon army, the IDF ally, in 2000 when it exited (read "fled") Lebanon.

I don't like the term "quranimal" when applied to muslim Arabs. Torah has no such description. But it has a better one: Savage Man ("Pere Adam"). "Man" because he belives in One G-d, "Savage" because he spreads His knowledge by utterly barbaric methods.

They respect POWER. If they see you are weak, they'll tear you into pieces. But if they see you are really strong (not only in military terms)  they will recpect you.

We the Jews should not hate the Arabs. Instead, we must feel confident that Israel is ours because G-d Himself says so, and behave accordingly.
(Israeli Left does just the opposite: it does hate Arabs and believes that they are true owners of the Land)

[Zelhar]

Lebanese you may be not 'talking' to me but I 'hear' you anyway.

All of Lebanon up to the Litani is part of Israel and will one day be liberated. You are raising the fakenstinian problem as if it is the biggest problem of lebanon. In fact it is not,  the problem is that lebanon is an evil muslim arab artifificial country.

[lebanese]

you really seem to be ignorant. Lebanon is not a muslim country. Also, the head of the state is Christian. Of course it would be to the Litani,.... since your concern is the water:)

[Zelhar]

Southern Lebanon, and the Bikaa is currently Hezbullahstan, I gues you have given them up already then. Also- Lebanon has no head of state, it is a puppet state of Syria and Iran.

[lebanese]

No comment.

[q_q_]

Lebanese you may be not 'talking' to me but I 'hear' you anyway.

All of Lebanon up to the Litani is part of Israel and will one day be liberated. You are raising the fakenstinian problem as if it is the biggest problem of lebanon. In fact it is not,  the problem is that lebanon is an evil muslim arab artifificial country.

I've run into a number of lebanese christians in the diaspora that are grateful to israel (I guess for invading in 1982 and pushing the PLO north, out of south lebanon)

I also recall in perhaps 2006,  Brigitte Gabriel - the well known pro israel lebanese christian, had a letter on her website where lebanese christians were asking israel to train them and let them into lebanon to fight the muslims.. so they can take over again and be allies.

Now, you may not trust arabs.. But Israel is better off with a christian lebanon than a muslim one. 

What Israel could do is bomb out the muslims("palestinians" and indiginous lebanese muslims)  and bring the christian lebanese diaspora back in.

Bomb them into syria or wherever.

As far as world opinion is concerned, israel needn't worry, because they can say they are fighting for the rights of the indiginous christians.. who used to run the country before muslims took over.

It's very popular nowadays to support a national liberation movement!

Out of self-interest too, because they will be a less war-like neighbour.

Iran wants a muslim lebanon.. I am guessing that they paid syria to occupy lebanon and islamize it to turn it into a base to attack israel from the north.

It would be an intelligent way to stall iran's plans, and also confuse world opinion somewhat.. because israel would be doing a big favour for millions of lebanese arabs!  israel may even gain a few more brigitte gabriels!

And for somebody like Netanyahu that wants american support..
America will never withdraw support because the evangelicans won't let them..
 But  Can you imagine the support from evangelicals in america!
Rabbi Kahane was fine with christians being pro israel, he would say they should do it for their sake, because as they know their bible, he who blesses israel is blessed.
It'll be like another 1967 for them! christians regaining lebanon .

[q_q_]

Lebanese - thanks for the great lengthy explanation

[q_q_]

Lebanese -

don't worry about silly people.. you're doing great.


apparently lebanon did attack israel in 1948..

In 1932 Lebanon was 55% christian..

and the christians still ran the country in 1975 before Syria came in.

There were no "palestinian" refugees in 1948 before the 1948 war.
The PLO was in Jordan.
So I suppose you had the indiginous lebanese muslims..

But who was attacking israel and if it was the muslims.. why didn't the lebanese govt do anything to stop them?

doesn't this show that the christian lebanese govt were no good to israel?

[Zelhar]

Lebanese you may be not 'talking' to me but I 'hear' you anyway.

All of Lebanon up to the Litani is part of Israel and will one day be liberated. You are raising the fakenstinian problem as if it is the biggest problem of lebanon. In fact it is not,  the problem is that lebanon is an evil muslim arab artifificial country.

I've run into a number of lebanese christians in the diaspora that are grateful to israel (I guess for invading in 1982 and pushing the PLO north, out of south lebanon)

I also recall in perhaps 2006,  Brigitte Gabriel - the well known pro israel lebanese christian, had a letter on her website where lebanese christians were asking israel to train them and let them into lebanon to fight the muslims.. so they can take over again and be allies.

Now, you may not trust arabs.. But Israel is better off with a christian lebanon than a muslim one. 

What Israel could do is bomb out the muslims("palestinians" and indiginous lebanese muslims)  and bring the christian lebanese diaspora back in.

Bomb them into syria or wherever.

As far as world opinion is concerned, israel needn't worry, because they can say they are fighting for the rights of the indiginous christians.. who used to run the country before muslims took over.

It's very popular nowadays to support a national liberation movement!

Out of self-interest too, because they will be a less war-like neighbour.

Iran wants a muslim lebanon.. I am guessing that they paid syria to occupy lebanon and islamize it to turn it into a base to attack israel from the north.

It would be an intelligent way to stall iran's plans, and also confuse world opinion somewhat.. because israel would be doing a big favour for millions of lebanese arabs!  israel may even gain a few more brigitte gabriels!

The Christians of Lebanon, judging their political affiliance, are either part of the Syria, and Iran block, or Part of the Suni block. There are no Brigitte Gabreil's left there, save a few individuals. Lebanon is overwhelmingly muslim with the shiite terrorists comprising the greatest component.

[q_q_]

<snip>
The Christians of Lebanon, judging their political affiliance, are either part of the Syria, and Iran block, or Part of the Suni block. There are no Brigitte Gabreil's left there, save a few individuals. Lebanon is overwhelmingly muslim with the shiite terrorists comprising the greatest component.

there may be a few of her in the lebanese diaspora..

so israel can bomb lebanon.. send all of them out.

and invite the lebanese diaspora back in!

it's not that far fetched.. the lebanese diaspora want to go back anyway, but left because of muslim violence ruining their country.

[lebanese]

Thanks a lot. I hope this would be better. From what I know or what I can search for it is that Lebanon had many refugees (I am sure they came from Jordan (Black September) and they are the 1948 ones I guess though I will try to know more about that subject). I do not think at all that the government supported them in the beginning. There were many fightings between the Lebanese army and the Palestinians before the 1975 war. the palestinians were uncontrollable. I dunno how the weapons used to come to the palestinians in lebanon. A very huge mistake that Lebanon paid for a lot was an agreement between the lebanese army and the palestinians that led to what was called the Cairo treaties that gave the palestinians the right to launch operations from lebanon to israel. this was the idea of the most hated lebanese president Charles Helou who was a very cultivated person but who was never able in his whole life to take decisions. these treaties were not at all in the favor of the security of lebanon and the peace in the middle east. but, whether the palestinians were given the right or no, im sure that the result would have been the same. the palestinians who entered lebanon and were armed through syria were uncontrollable.I do not think that Christians of Lebanon ever supported them. The main tensions in the 1960 s between the arabism and the nationalism was because of the tolerance of the muslim groups (mainly the Sunnis) towards the palestinians. Christians were already prepared to a possible confrontation from the 1960s.

there may be people in the government who did not care for the security of lebanon but more for the money they used to receive from yasser arafat, the man who collects money from all the arab countries. what i am sure of is that the vast majority of the christians was never in favor of the palestinians in lebanon. also, the fact that we were always the nationalist ones and used to fight for our country made us weaker than ever. also, there are some christians now in lebanon that are supporting hezbollah. but the leader of the christian party has lost a lot of his popularity. christians even after 2006 where even christian areas that are not in the south were bombed, still think that israel may the protectorat of the minorities in the middle east. but i dunno if i still should consider this. we re now 25 %. half of us left the country in 15 years after the syrian occupation. is it still woth it to talk about the christians of lebanon? lebanon would have lived peacefully with israel if all those wars never happened. i do not think that the sunnis (who are now more to the israeli side) would be a great ally as well. these sunnis (the actual lebanese government) were the first allies of the syrians. they may turn against you the first time they would have the chance to. they are really more fanatic than hezbolllah ( this is from my own experience).

[TheCoon]

Lebanon should be a Christian country, but the nation's Christians have given it over to Iranian-backed muslim fanatics. Lebanon's Christian population is destined to be splintered around the globe.