Author Topic: To prove a point, I'm asking whether you have heard of this.  (Read 1751 times)

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Offline zachor_ve_kavod

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To prove a point, I'm asking whether you have heard of this.
« on: February 04, 2009, 04:33:15 PM »
If we do not remember the past, we will live to see it again.  I wonder if modern zionism would have begun earlier if Jews had remembered and contemplated about the Chmelnicki pogroms.

How many of you know about the Chmelnicki pogroms?  Please answer honestly.

Offline Daleksfearme

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Re: To prove a point, I'm asking whether you have heard of this.
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2009, 09:20:13 PM »
I know that I have read about them but cant remember the exact details...were they the ones that occured in Poland?
"You must not have looked in the new dictionary for the word Genocide, Because Right next to it is a picture of me with a capton that reads...over my dead body!"

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Offline SavetheWest

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Re: To prove a point, I'm asking whether you have heard of this.
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2009, 10:04:56 PM »
If we do not remember the past, we will live to see it again.  I wonder if modern zionism would have begun earlier if Jews had remembered and contemplated about the Chmelnicki pogroms.

How many of you know about the Chmelnicki pogroms?  Please answer honestly.


What were they?  I've never heard about them before.

Offline zachor_ve_kavod

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Re: To prove a point, I'm asking whether you have heard of this.
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2009, 12:06:16 AM »
In the 17th century, there were some of the most horrific pogroms in history, led by Bogdan Chmelnicki (ym"sh).  Tens of thousands of Jews were murdered.  Many of the stories are too horrific for me to relate.  They are literally unimaginable to decent people.

After being chased from the various countries in Western Europe, large numbers of Jews came to Poland, where for a time they managed to eek out an existence.  They persevered and created a new culture.  But even in Poland things were not good for the Jews.  There was anti-Semitism which often turned violent, even murderous.  Motivated by the lies of blood libel and host desecration and just plain lies about Jewish treachery, Chmelnicki and his rag tag team of horse back hooligans murdered Jews in cold blood.

I wonder if Jews had learned about these pogroms, if they would have tried to return to the Jewish homeland sooner.  Tragically, it took the holocaust for Jews to finally realize that they had no business living in Europe. 

It is critical that we Jews learn from the past.  We are not separated from our history.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: To prove a point, I'm asking whether you have heard of this.
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2009, 12:43:21 AM »
I did not know of them by name, but there have certainly been many bestial pogroms throughout history.

Offline IsraelForever

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Re: To prove a point, I'm asking whether you have heard of this.
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2009, 01:52:19 AM »
Chmielnicki was one of the biggest anti-Semites in human history, on par with Hitler. His aim was genocide and his forces murdered an estimated 100,000 Jews in the most horrendous ways.

How did Jews come to be in Poland in the first place.  They were invited there.  King Boleslav of Poland invited the Jews, granting them unprecedented rights and privileges.  This happened during a period of history known as "The Renaissance" which historians generally date from about 1350 to about 1650. Renaissance means "rebirth." Rebirth of what? Of knowledge.  This is also a time when Jews made their way into Poland. Today we tend to think of Jewish life in Poland as being confined to the shtetl, but that did not happen until the 18th century. We also tend to think of Poland as synonymous with anti-Semitism, pogroms, etc. But during the time of the Renaissance the picture was quite different.  Poland became Christian very late, only at the turn of the 11th century, and only then did it join the European community of nations (so to speak).  After that, it took a couple of hundred years before Poland started to emerge as a nation-state with strong development potential.  If you want to develop your country economically and culturally, who do you need?  You need Jews. 

Why were the Jews so necessary?  First, they could read and write. J ews were always highly educated as they had to be literate to read and obey the Torah, and general education came along as part of the parcel.  Second, Jews were excellent bankers, accountants, and administrators who knew how to keep the economy healthy.

So in 1264, King Boleslav of Poland granted a charter inviting the Jews there. The charter was an amazing document, granting Jews unprecedented rights and privileges.

Jews did not immediately flock into Poland, though some did settle there to test the waters.  But when other countries started expelling -- Poland became an attractive destination point.

Then in 1569, Poland unified with Lithuania, and as a result expanded its borders to the east.  What we know as the Ukraine today and some of Belorussia became vassal lands of Poland which was still a semi-feudal country.  These lands needed to be managed and job openings in administration (at which Jews excelled) sprung up everywhere.  Quite often Jews would lease tracks of land from the Polish nobility thus making them the middle men in the feudal economic structure of Eastern Europe. 

In Poland, in the early 16th century, the Jews were allowed to have their own governing body called the Va'ad Arba Artzot-The Council of the Four Lands, which was composed of various rabbis from the four major Polish provinces (Great Poland, Little Poland, Volhynia and Polodia) who oversaw the affairs of the Jews in Eastern Europe.  The Poles did not interfere with Jewish life and scholarship flourished.

Along with the growth in Torah scholarship there was growth in population. In 1500 there were about 50,000 Jews living in Poland. By 1650 there were 500,000 Jews.  This means that by the mid 17th at least 30% or more of the Jewish population of the world was living in Poland!

Where did these Jews settle within Poland?

Jews of the Diaspora were generally urban people as they were historically not allowed to own land in most of the places they lived. However, they also created their own farm communities called shtetls (Yiddish for "small town). Although we tend to think of the shtetl today as a poor farming village (like in Fiddler on the Roof), during the Golden Age of Polish Jewry, many of these communities were actually quite prosperous. And there were thousands of them.

The Jews in these independent communities spoke their own language called Yiddish. Original Yiddish was written in Hebrew letters and was a mixture of Hebrew, Slavic, and German. (Note that Yiddish underwent constant development and "modern" Yiddish is not like the "old" Yiddish which first appeared in the 13th century, nor "middle" Yiddish of this period of time.)

Overall, the Jews did well, but working alongside Polish and Ukrainian Christians (who thought Jews killed Jesus) had its downside.

There were several instances of Christian rioting against Jews. For example, in 1399 in Poznan, a rabbi and 13 elders were accused of stealing Church property and they were tortured and burnt at the stake. (The Poles must have forgot the king's edict.)

Another problem was that Jews worked as administrators and tax collectors for Polish feudal lords. This did not make them popular among the local folk, who needed little encouragement to unleash their anti-Semitic rage.

This was especially true in places like the Ukraine, where the Catholic Poles were viewed as an occupying power in an Eastern Orthodox land, and the Jews -- being representatives of the occupation forces -- were the easiest to resent.

And while the Polish nobility might have needed the Jews, the common Poles didn't. There were instances when the Polish soldiers would purposely leave town, abandoning the Jews to the mercy (or lack thereof) of the Ukrainians. This happened, for example, in 1648 in the city of Tulchin. The Polish soldiers made a deal with the Cossacks and left town. The Jews defended the city by themselves until it fell and they were all slaughtered.

When the Ukrainians decided to throw the Poles out of their land, a full-scale massacres of Jews began.

The year 1635 saw the first big explosion of violence in Ukraine against Poles and Jews. But this attempt at the revolution was crushed. It returned with new vigor thirteen years later.

This second rebellion, in 1648, which succeeded in freeing a large part of the Ukraine from Polish rule, was led by a Ukrainian Cossack named Bogdan Chmielnicki. In large measure it was directed at the Jews.

You can read more here: 
http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_Part_49_-_The_Jews_of_Poland.asp

I know that all of you reading this don't need me to tell you that History teaches us one thing, if it teaches us anything at all.  And that one thing is this:  The Jews need their own country -- Israel.  And it certainly doesn't need to share that country with vicious, murderous Arabs.  Of course, Kahane knew this as well as anyone.

Offline muman613

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Re: To prove a point, I'm asking whether you have heard of this.
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2009, 01:59:31 AM »
I am basically half Polish Jew and half Ukrainian Jew. In both of these countries us Jews were massacred in great numbers. I am fond to remind everyone of the Massacre of Uman.

Here is some info from the wikipedia page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Uman


"
The Masscre of Uman was the 1768 massacre of the Jews and Poles at Uman, Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth by the Ukrainian Haidamak rebel army.

Uman was a well-fortified town that held a large garrison part of Polish troops. This fact made Uman one of the primary targets of Koliyivschyna movement, and, probably, the siege of Uman was planned well in advance. Ivan Gonta[citation needed] , an officer in the private militia of Count Potocki (composed of Registered Cossacks) was accused of connections with haidamakas by local Jewish community three months before the siege; however, due to the lack of hard evidence and the sudden death of a star witness on his road to Uman no formal charges were made. It also should be noted that although Ivan Gonta was de-facto the commander of Uman cossacks he was not the most senior in their ranks.

In early June of 1768 the Ukrainian rebels under the command of Maksym Zalizniak marched on Uman after capturing Cherkasy, Korsun and Kaniv. As Zalizniak openly encouraged the slaughter of Jews and Poles, the town was filled with refugees. A large camp filled with Polish nobility and their private militia, regular soldiers and Jewish refugees was stationed outside the city walls. Polish troops that outnumbered the forces of rebels, and, therefore it was decided that some of the forces should guard the ramparts while Gonta with his cossack unit would meet the Haidamakas in open battle. However, when Gonta met Zalizniak's units he openly declared that he is going to join Koliivschyna. Some sources claim that the formal commanders of the unit were sent back to Uman, although the authenticity of the story is highly disputed.

The united troops razed the encampment on June 14th and tried to penetrate the ramparts by consealing the rebels behind the backs of Gonta's Registered Cossacks. However, the attempt failed, and so the siege started on June 17th. The very first day large number of Ukrainians deserted the ranks of Polish forces and joined the rebels when the city was surrounded.

After three days of the siege the city fell to Zalizniak in spite of a courageous defense in which the Jews also played an active role. The tragic event occurred after the betrayal of commandant Mladanovitch, who wanted to buy the lives of Poles betraying Jews to Zaliznak and Gonta. This evolved into the violent and bloody massacre (where Mladanovitch was himself killed). The Jews then gathered in the synagogues, where they were led by Leib Shargorodski and Moses Menaker in an attempt to defend themselves, but they were destroyed by cannon fire. Most of the remaining Jews in the city were subsequently killed.

Most historians give an estimate of number of Poles and Jews who were killed in the “massacre of Uman” as to be 2,000[1]. The same estimate is given by Gonta during his trial, while some earlier Jewish historians[who?] put the number close to 50,000.

The anniversary of the commencement of the massacre, Tammuz 5, henceforth known as the “Evil Decree of Uman,” was observed as a fast and by a special prayer. Nachman of Breslov settled in Uman, and before his death there, he said, “the souls of the martyrs (slaughtered by Gonta) await me”. After his death in 1811, the Hasidim of Breslov used to come to Uman in large numbers to prostrate themselves at his grave.
"


http://www.geocities.com/candlemaker_kaprov/Uman.html

http://www.breslev.co.il/articles/breslev/uman/the_uman_massacre.aspx?id=9063&language=english
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 02:21:02 AM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
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Offline Masha

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Re: To prove a point, I'm asking whether you have heard of this.
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2009, 03:26:35 AM »
Thank you IsraelForever and Muman613 for a history lesson. My family from the mother's side are Ukrainian Jews from Uman' and Crimea (to the latter place they came with Ancient Greeks, long before Ukrainians were there - this is apropos all those "go back to your Israel" I heard as a child).

There are statues of Bogdan Khmel'nitsky all over Ukraine, which explains why I so "love" the Ukrainian people. In Eastern Europe, Ukrainians stand apart from all other nations regarding the intensity of their anti-semitism. They are more anti-semitic than Russians, they are definitely more anti-semitic than Belorussians. They might even be more anti-semitic than the Poles, although I've never lived in Poland, and this statement might be incorrect. Ukrainians have done beastly cruel things not only to the Jews, but to the Poles, as well (the latest series of anti-Jewish and anti-Polish massacres taking place during WWII) - things the description of which makes you seriously doubt that you are reading about human beings, that make you thing that the German Holocaust was humane by comparison.

Lwow, which is today called Lviv by Ukrainians, was a Polish city. There are no Poles there today. West Ukraine, which had a mixed Ukrainian and Polish population is today completely "Polish-frei." There are no Jews left in Western Ukraine. Those few Jews who remain are in the East, because East Ukrainians are closer to Russians in mentality and are not as demonic and intolerant as people in the West.

I wonder why the Poles do not put two and two together and realize that their period of political and economic prosperity coincided with the historical period when they were decent to the Jews. After they had turned against the Jews, their fortunes changed. Being so religious and knowledgeable of the Bible, they should be able to see the connection between their fortunes and the Biblical injunction: "bless them who bless you and curse them who curse you." Ukrainians, on the other hand, were always evil to the Jews, and their country has always been a stinking hellhole. I hope they see the light and repent. Where are all the righteous Ukrainians? You occasionally hear righteous voices in the Russian press, like the journalist Julia Latynina, who recently wrote an editorial unequivocally defending Israel. But I have never come across a righteous Ukrainian. If I ever do, I will embrace him/her as a friend.

Offline zachor_ve_kavod

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Re: To prove a point, I'm asking whether you have heard of this.
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2009, 04:26:51 AM »
Except for the muslims, Ukranians are the only people on the planet that actually make the Poles look good.  They were the most savage of murderers during the holocaust, they even made some nazis sick with their viciousness.  They were the guards who whipped and beat Jews in the chute to the gas chambers at Treblinka, Sobibor, and Belzec.  Very little has changed in the Ukraine.  The Baltic countries (Ukraine, Lithuania, Estonia) are unparalleled in Europe for their hatred of the Jews. 

Russia is hardly better.  I remember seeing a video comparing American attitudes towards the Jews and Russian attitudes towards the Jews.  America is not an anti-Semitic country.  Russians who were interviewed spoke of the Jews killing Christ, drinking the blood of gentile babies, on and on.  And this was a contemporary video.

While we're talking about learning from history, there is one aspect of the holocaust that few people know about.  After the liberation of the camps and the end of the war in Europe, there were a few Jews who survived the camps, and foolishly decided to go back to Poland to find relatives or to retrieve some belongings.  (This was AFTER the war, keep in mind).  Poles ganged up and murdered Jews who had come back.  6 war years of murder and 3.5 years of the final solution wasn't enough for these murderous bastards.  One incident is known as the Kielce pogrom.  This should have dispelled any illusions that the Jews could live in Europe.

I feel a hatred towards Eastern Europe that will never die.  Chernobyl was too good for them.

Offline Spectator

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Re: To prove a point, I'm asking whether you have heard of this.
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2009, 04:44:22 AM »
I wonder why the Poles do not put two and two together and realize that their period of political and economic prosperity coincided with the historical period when they were decent to the Jews. After they had turned against the Jews, their fortunes changed. Being so religious and knowledgeable of the Bible, they should be able to see the connection between their fortunes and the Biblical injunction: "bless them who bless you and curse them who curse you."

This question should also be asked by Spain and Germany. When the Jews were respected there, this countries were very powerful. After they persecuted the Jews, the becacme ordinary places no one cares of.

Ukrainians have done beastly cruel things not only to the Jews, but to the Poles, as well (the latest series of anti-Jewish and anti-Polish massacres taking place during WWII) - things the description of which makes you seriously doubt that you are reading about human beings, that make you thing that the German Holocaust was humane by comparison

Yes, the Western Ukraine fought at Nazi side in WWII. There was an Ukrainian SS Division "Galicia" ("Halychyna"). Also, there was Ukrainian Insurgent Army ("Ukrayins’ka Povstans’ka Armiya") which also fought some time at German side. (Btw, Ukrainian "Povstanetz" and Croatian "Ustasa" means the same - insurgent. The same were also their methods)

East Ukrainians are closer to Russians in mentality and are not as demonic and intolerant as people in the West.

This causes serious split between them today. Some people even say that Ukraine will break into two independent states.

 
Do not put your trust in princes, nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help (Psalms 146:3)

Offline דוד בן זאב אריה

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Re: To prove a point, I'm asking whether you have heard of this.
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2009, 04:45:41 AM »
nope
David Ben Ze'ev Aryeh


Offline Spectator

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Do not put your trust in princes, nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help (Psalms 146:3)

Offline IsraelForever

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Re: To prove a point, I'm asking whether you have heard of this.
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2009, 04:59:00 AM »
Quote from: zachor_ve_kavod
I feel a hatred towards Eastern Europe that will never die.  Chernobyl was too good for them.
I have the same hatred toward Eastern Europe.  As a Jew, I'd rather go into the jungles of Africa and live amongst the lions, the tigers, and hyenas.  I'd be with a better class of life.  I feel sorry for any Jew who still lives there.  If I'm not mistaken, I read that the Poles are trying to get Jews to move pack into Poland.  I remember saying to a friend, "A Jew would have to be crazy to move there.  I don't care what they offered me."

Offline IsraelForever

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Re: To prove a point, I'm asking whether you have heard of this.
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2009, 05:00:26 AM »
nope

nope what ?  :)
He was answering the question that was asked in the first post of this thread.  The question asked was: "How many of you know about the Chmelnicki pogroms?  Please answer honestly."   His answer was "nope". 


Offline mord

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Re: To prove a point, I'm asking whether you have heard of this.
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2009, 10:45:35 AM »
Not all people by this name Zalizniak are Cossacks i have Jewish relatives by this name
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
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Offline Zelhar

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Re: To prove a point, I'm asking whether you have heard of this.
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2009, 05:57:29 PM »
I have known about them since I was a kid of about 8yo. In hebrew we call this event גזרות ת"ח-ת"ט