Thank you. There must always be a spiritual foundation for nationalism.
What about these guys?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Zionism
http://www.mrtolerance.com/
http://www.arabsforisrael.com/
I will come back and maybe start some threads on this topic.
Regards,
Fortis.
That aya in sura 5 of the quran is a big problem for them.. (one should know their terms if you want a serious discussion with one..)
they try desperately to avoid that verse.. claiming ignorance of it or being unsure about it .. or just giving wild replies that they cannot possibly believe. And i'm sure the tafsir(Traditional islammic commentary) shows their interpretation is completely wrong islammically
in the Torah Israel is a name of a person(Israel-Jacob) , the nation and the land.
in the quran, it's just basic.. Israel is Jacob, and the nation-children/descendents of israel. But it is not used to refer to the land..
I once heard one of them say.. that when Moses tells Israel to go to the promised land.. That it must be talking about somewhere other than the land of israel, becuse there's no way he wants jews there!!!! They really run circles to deal with that verse.
Another said , well, you can't steal others land.
Fact is, their book says (copying bible prophecy), that in the end of days G-d will gather them to gether in a mingled crowd. They themselves can see israel is a mingled crowd.. It really is an issue.. But they don't think about it.
Another thing though is that in Islam, once land has a muslim ruler, it's muslim land. So to them it's muslim land. They have to rule it.
It was part of the Ottoman Empire - not arab - turkish. But muslim. It was part of one large mass.. A borderless islammic state.. Muslims will tell you they don't believe in borders(for them it's an artificial man made pointless thing and the whole world should just be one unified islammic state!).
What is important is not theologically what is TRUE islam.. (islam is not true itself). What is important is -the reality of islam-.
This is important, in not getting hung up on arguing whether or not islam is a religion of peace. And in our society sometimes to make a point it's better to say islamism to make a point, thus avoiding that discussion which is really for muslims to argue amongst themselves.
The strong argument though that islam is not a religion of peace, is simply mohammed.. he faught wars.. most people would not consider the Islam of the 600sCE, to be peaceful! Yet in islam, mohammed is the perfect muslim.
Also, there are these 2 interesting verses, the second one is particularly interesting.
in a debate between sam shamoun and nadir ahmed..
(it's on video.. not that advanced , nadir ahmed was hilarious, p;ointing saying he'll get him and telling sam not to run away. )
here are shamoun's notes.
And this was the crux of the debate.. and ahmed had no answer.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/na_debate.htm"
– The Quran says to seek peace if the enemy wants peace:
And if they incline to peace, do thou incline to it; and put thy trust in G-d; He is the All-hearing, the All-knowing. S. 8:61
Fact – This passage is contradicted by the following reference:
So be not weak and ask not for peace (from the enemies of Islam), while you are having the upper hand. Allah is with you, and will never decrease the reward of your good deeds. S. 47:35
The contradiction led some Muslims to assume that Q. 8:61 has been abrogated whereas other scholars believed that it is be implemented only when the Muslims do not have the upper hand:
"
NOTE: Sam shamoun, the one representing christianity, is a big anti-semite.. I heard him some years ago in a chat.. I don't know if he has an arabic background.. He's also somewhat of a thug himself .. though this doesn't invalidate the arguments he used.
The main argument to Ahmed was..
this verse (let people decide if this is a religion of peace)
"So be not weak and ask not for peace (from the enemies of Islam), while you are having the upper hand. Allah is with you, and will never decrease the reward of your good deeds. S. 47:35 "
It also explains why you have moderate muslims.. Why muslims are always saying it's a religion of peace.. They say it because they want islam to take hold.
It may well be that once it takes hold, (and they make the non muslims dhimmi) they will still say it's a religion of peace.
But as Nick Griffin said - I saw him talking about islam on youtube - .. Dhimmi status is a religious and cultural apartheid incompatible with western values. He gave some exampels of how dhimmis are treated.. That word apartheid is important. They know how powerful it is because they have the cheek to accuse israel - that lets arabs vote and has arab members of parliament! of being an apartheid state!