Pope tells bishop to 'recant' his Holocaust denial

[muman613]

So apparently the pope is open to suggestion from outside the church. I am glad that the Pope is standing up against the evil in his church.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129776

Vatican: Holocaust Denier Must Recant Before Return to Church
Shevat 10, 5769, 04 February 09 06:24
by Hana Levi Julian

(IsraelNN.com) The Vatican has informed Bishop Richard Williamson that he must recant his denial of the Holocaust before he can be fully readmitted to the Roman Catholic Church.

A statement issued to the media by the Vatican's Secretariat of State on Wednesday also said that Pope Benedict XVI was unaware of Williamson's insistence that there were no Nazi gas chambers, and that only 300,000 Jews perished in the concentration camps, when he revoked his excommunication and that of three other bishops last month.

The statement came a day after German Chancellor Angela Merkel called on the Holy See to issue a "very clear" rejection of Holocaust denial. She added that there had not been adequate clarification of the Pontiff's stand on the matter.

The State of Israel had also warned the Vatican Wednesday that it expected to see "more explicit and unequivocal decisions and statements" about the issue of Holocaust denial in response to the reinstatement of a bishop who denies that Jews were exterminated in Nazi gas chambers.

Williamson, who was consecrated in 1988 with three others by the rebel conservative French archbishop Marcel Lefebvre against the wishes of the Holy See at that time, told a Swedish television interviewer on January 21, "I believe there were no gas chambers." He also reaffirmed his oft-stated belief that no more than 300,000 Jews perished in the Nazi concentration camps.

Israel's Chief Rabbinate broke ties with the Vatican last week to protest the papal decision.

"The State of Israel views the Vatican's decision… with regret and concern," read the statement released by the Foreign Ministry. "The reinstatement of a Holocaust denier by the Holy See offends every Jew, in Israel and around the world, and humiliates the memory of all Holocaust victims and survivors.

"We expect the Holy See to decisively renounce all Holocaust deniers in general, wherever they may be, and Bishop Williamson in particular," it said. "We view the recent remarks made by the Holy See and senior Vatican officials admonishing the manifestation of Holocaust denial as the first step in the right direction, and expect more explicit and unequivocal decisions and statements on this issue," it concluded.

Calls had been growing among Catholics themselves for the Pope to step down in response to his decision.  "There is obviously a loss of confidence" in the Pope, said German Bishop of Hamburg Werner Thissen, who told the Hamburger Abendblatt daily newspaper on Monday that "rehabilitating a denier is always a bad idea."

Pope Benedict XVI is expected to visit Israel and the Palestinian Authority in May, after having received a written invitation last November from President Shimon Peres. The visit would be the third trip by a pope to Israel and Pope Benedict's first.

[zachor_ve_kavod]

I think that generally, this Pope will be good.  Another positive note to this story, is that it was nice to see the usual pathetic Jewish organizations speak up for a change.

[Masha]

It's all very good, but what I don't like is the way the question of Holocaust and Holocaust denial has become a kind of "cottage industry" for evil left-wing Jews and concealed anti-semites. They act very concerned about the Holocaust in order to slander and sabotage the Zionist movement. It's a replacement. Frankly, I am tired of hearing about the Holocaust. Let's stop making it a "holy cow." Israel issued a statement! Who are they kidding, these treacherous, self-hating kikes? LET'S BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE ANTI-SEMITISM AND ANTI-ZIONISM OF TODAY!!! I would like to see Israel issuing statements about that instead!!!

[mord]

It's all very good, but what I don't like is the way the question of Holocaust and Holocaust denial has become a kind of "cottage industry" for evil left-wing Jews and concealed anti-semites. They act very concerned about the Holocaust in order to slander and sabotage the Zionist movement. It's a replacement. Frankly, I am tired of hearing about the Holocaust. Let's stop making it a "holy cow." Israel issued a statement! Who are they kidding, these treacherous, self-hating kikes? LET'S BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE ANTI-SEMITISM AND ANTI-ZIONISM OF TODAY!!! I would like to see Israel issuing statements about that instead!!!

yes like that weasel Norman Finkelstein

[muman613]

It's all very good, but what I don't like is the way the question of Holocaust and Holocaust denial has become a kind of "cottage industry" for evil left-wing Jews and concealed anti-semites. They act very concerned about the Holocaust in order to slander and sabotage the Zionist movement. It's a replacement. Frankly, I am tired of hearing about the Holocaust. Let's stop making it a "holy cow." Israel issued a statement! Who are they kidding, these treacherous, self-hating kikes? LET'S BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE ANTI-SEMITISM AND ANTI-ZIONISM OF TODAY!!! I would like to see Israel issuing statements about that instead!!!

All Jews have a right to be concerned about the Holocaust because in Hislers Germany ALL JEWS were led to the gas chambers whether they were religious or secular. I think it is very callous and unJewish of you to be so cruel. I also disagree and think it is gravely wrong for a Jew to call a fellow Jew a kike. I have said this numerous times, have shown Torah which condemns such baseless hatred, and yet people think that it is cool.

The fact that the Pope has condemned the antisemites in the church is a GREAT event and one which should be celebrated. Do not divide AM YISROEL further by condemning all Jews who don't dress, act, or believe like you do,

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

This is not nearly enough, but it's a good start, at least.

[zachor_ve_kavod]

It's all very good, but what I don't like is the way the question of Holocaust and Holocaust denial has become a kind of "cottage industry" for evil left-wing Jews and concealed anti-semites. They act very concerned about the Holocaust in order to slander and sabotage the Zionist movement. It's a replacement. Frankly, I am tired of hearing about the Holocaust. Let's stop making it a "holy cow." Israel issued a statement! Who are they kidding, these treacherous, self-hating kikes? LET'S BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE ANTI-SEMITISM AND ANTI-ZIONISM OF TODAY!!! I would like to see Israel issuing statements about that instead!!!

I also have to object to this post.  Jesse Jackson also said he was tired of hearing about the holocaust.  Who can say that they are tired of hearing about the holocaust?  Certainly nobody that lost family members to it, as I did would ever say that, nor would any survivor.  If we do not remember and honour the dead, what good are we?

I think what bothered Rabbi Kahane (of blessed memory) about the way the holocaust is commemorated, is that Jews of today take great pleasure at condemning those who did not lift a finger to help Jews when they could have.  We Jews should instead look critically at ourselves, at our own organizations who could have done so much but did not for their own reasons.  While the Jews of Europe were fighting for their lives, the Jews of America were fighting for membership into the local country club.  Jews must acknowledge that.  But I would bet my bottom dollar that Rabbi Kahane would not approve of any Jew saying that he is tired about hearing of the holocaust.

We do have to be more concerned with the battles of today.  This is of course right.  But there are many lessons from the holocaust that we have yet to learn, and we won't learn them by forgetting about the holocaust.  To prove this, I'm going to open up another thread asking our members about a period of Jewish history.

[angryChineseKahanist]

The German native Pope seems pro-Israel.

[Masha]

Turning the Holocaust into a "religion" has long been my pet peeve. Superficially, my opinion on this score coincides with that of Jew-haters. However, we are coming from two completely different perspectives. It's a little bit like left wing nuts and paleocons aligning against neocons in their mutual opposition to the war in Iraq. But for entirely different reasons!!! This is why a seeming agreement on a political question is often deceptive.

[muman613]

Turning the Holocaust into a "religion" has long been my pet peeve. Superficially, my opinion on this score coincides with that of Jew-haters. However, we are coming from two completely different perspectives. It's a little bit like left wing nuts and paleocons aligning against neocons in their mutual opposition to the war in Iraq. But for entirely different reasons!!! This is why a seeming agreement on a political question is often deceptive.

I dont think any Jew has turned the Holocaust into a religion {at least not a religious Jew}. But it is impossible to look at the event without having a Jewish perspective to understand. I am not going to explain 'why' the Holocaust against the Jews took place but it is similar to the story which our sages teach again and again. When the Jewish people are strong in their faith and observance of Hashems laws he is kind to us, when we diverge and disobey he will send agents into the world to remind us.

[P J C]

I stand behind the pope.

[JewishAmericanPatriot]

Turning the Holocaust into a "religion" has long been my pet peeve. Superficially, my opinion on this score coincides with that of Jew-haters. However, we are coming from two completely different perspectives. It's a little bit like left wing nuts and paleocons aligning against neocons in their mutual opposition to the war in Iraq. But for entirely different reasons!!! This is why a seeming agreement on a political question is often deceptive.

FWIW, I agree with you!

Rav Benjamin Ze'ev Kahane (HY"D) authored a little booklet about the Shoah and its Jewish theological implications; I agree 100% with it. I bought it many years ago, and if I can find it online, I'll link to it for you. I think you'd agree with it.

[ProudAndZionist]

I don't like this Pope...and he wants visit Hungary. 

[P J C]

I don't like this Pope...and he wants visit Hungary. 

From what I hear, you don't like the pope, Vatican, or Catholic Church, so your opinion on the pope is invalid.

[muman613]

I don't like this Pope...and he wants visit Hungary. 

From what I hear, you don't like the pope, Vatican, or Catholic Church, so your opinion on the pope is invalid.

Hey, thats a bit rude. I think everyone is entitled to have an opinion of the Pope. Whether it will change him or he will listen is another story. This pope has done much to tear down Jewish-Catholic relations. I did respect Pope John Paul more than I do this pope.

[ProudAndZionist]

I don't like this Pope...and he wants visit Hungary. 

From what I hear, you don't like the pope, Vatican, or Catholic Church, so your opinion on the pope is invalid.

Hey, thats a bit rude. I think everyone is entitled to have an opinion of the Pope. Whether it will change him or he will listen is another story. This pope has done much to tear down Jewish-Catholic relations. I did respect Pope John Paul more than I do this pope.

Forgive me ProJewCatholic, sorry If I hurt You! Honestly I really respect John Paul II.

[P J C]

I don't like this Pope...and he wants visit Hungary. 

From what I hear, you don't like the pope, Vatican, or Catholic Church, so your opinion on the pope is invalid.

Hey, thats a bit rude. I think everyone is entitled to have an opinion of the Pope. Whether it will change him or he will listen is another story. This pope has done much to tear down Jewish-Catholic relations. I did respect Pope John Paul more than I do this pope.

Forgive me ProJewCatholic, sorry If I hurt You! Honestly I really respect John Paul II.

I didnt mean to sound mean (no fun intented) I thought you had histility toward whoever the pope is, but you say you respected Pope John Paul, and I respected.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I am divided on Masha's post.

Part of me is horrified at what she wrote, and part of me thinks she has a valid point. The world does not respect whining, crying members of any group. Jews should constantly emphasize the Holocaust, but do so with an air of strength, zeal, and ferocity. Jews who constantly portray themselves as victims set themselves up to be victims even more. You don't see Muslim Nazis whining about their so-called "nakba" and asking for "dialogues" about it and official condolences for it--they are filled with vigor, rage, and hatred and DEMAND that the world destroy Israel for it. For all of their wickedness, the one thing Muslim Nazis do that is right is that they never act like wimps. The world pays attention to them because they ooze strength, force, and unity--something Jews and Christians have not been able to accomplish in 4,000 years.

Muman, I am getting really tired of your constant digs at Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular. We don't agree with all that the pope does--end of story. This time he has done something right (whether or not it is enough is another story, but is besides the point right now in any event) and for that he does deserve credit. He listened to the protests of concerned Jews, Catholics, and other Christians and has taken a step in the right direction.

[muman613]

I am divided on Masha's post.

Part of me is horrified at what she wrote, and part of me thinks she has a valid point. The world does not respect whining, crying members of any group. Jews should constantly emphasize the Holocaust, but do so with an air of strength, zeal, and ferocity. Jews who constantly portray themselves as victims set themselves up to be victims even more. You don't see Muslim Nazis whining about their so-called "nakba" and asking for "dialogues" about it and official condolences for it--they are filled with vigor, rage, and hatred and DEMAND that the world destroy Israel for it. For all of their wickedness, the one thing Muslim Nazis do that is right is that they never act like wimps. The world pays attention to them because they ooze strength, force, and unity--something Jews and Christians have not been able to accomplish in 4,000 years.

Muman, I am getting really tired of your constant digs at Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular. We don't agree with all that the pope does--end of story. This time he has done something right (whether or not it is enough is another story, but is besides the point right now in any event) and for that he does deserve credit. He listened to the protests of concerned Jews, Catholics, and other Christians and has taken a step in the right direction.

C.F.,

What the heck are you talking about? I did not attack the church or anyone. I have simply stated, again and again, that people should speak up and change the situation. Apparently doing so did change things. I was right, you were wrong.

There seems to be a bit of evil speech going on about me. What 'digs' have I made at the church? I have said that their history is full of some very gruesome events and this cannot be disputed. The only way to repent for past sins is to be honest and say you have done wrong. I am willing to forgive if the apology is sincere. It is very unfortunate that this event happened because it seemed that things were moving ahead {except for possible allegations that the Pope was a member of Hitlers youth}.

If you think there is not good reason for Jews to be upset then you are mistaken. I am not the only one upset by this, and apparently high-ranking members in the church have even called for the Pope to step down. So you may want to blame me for this, but that would be classical antisemitism.

PS: Remember the story of Channukah when the Maccabees stood up to the Greeks? That was less than 4000 years ago... More like 2500 years ago... Jews have stood up against evil and succeeded.

[Rubystars]

If you think there is not good reason for Jews to be upset then you are mistaken. I am not the only one upset by this, and apparently high-ranking members in the church have even called for the Pope to step down. So you may want to blame me for this, but that would be classical antisemitism.

C.F. is not an anti-Semite. He's one of the most loyal members of this board.

[muman613]

If you think there is not good reason for Jews to be upset then you are mistaken. I am not the only one upset by this, and apparently high-ranking members in the church have even called for the Pope to step down. So you may want to blame me for this, but that would be classical antisemitism.

C.F. is not an anti-Semite. He's one of the most loyal members of this board.

I am familiar with C.F. and while his intentions are good he sometimes says things which are way overboard and ridiculous. Saying that I attacked the Church when the Church has attacked Jews for several centuries is completely unbelievable.

PS: I have no beef with anyone here. But I will defend myself when people besmirch my name. I have good relationships with all of Hashems creations. I have said many times that I work and live with people from all over the world with very diverse religions and cultures. I am one who believes all of humanity is created in Hashems image. But I will stand up when evil exists and speak out.

[Rubystars]

If you think there is not good reason for Jews to be upset then you are mistaken. I am not the only one upset by this, and apparently high-ranking members in the church have even called for the Pope to step down. So you may want to blame me for this, but that would be classical antisemitism.

C.F. is not an anti-Semite. He's one of the most loyal members of this board.

I am familiar with C.F. and while his intentions are good he sometimes says things which are way overboard and ridiculous. Saying that I attacked the Church when the Church has attacked Jews for several centuries is completely unbelievable.

It's perfectly legitimate criticize an evil action done by the RCC or the RCC's evil history. However to say that those Catholics who don't go along with it or disagree with bad decisions the Pope makes are wannabe Catholics is a dig at our valued Catholic members. Many of those who follow that form of religion today do not follow what the Pope says on every issue and individuals who are sincere should not belittled in such a fashion.

Your posts seem to come from an air of "I'm holier than thou". It's not so much the topics you're discussing but how you discuss them that gives people the impression that you're always making digs.

[muman613]

If you think there is not good reason for Jews to be upset then you are mistaken. I am not the only one upset by this, and apparently high-ranking members in the church have even called for the Pope to step down. So you may want to blame me for this, but that would be classical antisemitism.

C.F. is not an anti-Semite. He's one of the most loyal members of this board.

I am familiar with C.F. and while his intentions are good he sometimes says things which are way overboard and ridiculous. Saying that I attacked the Church when the Church has attacked Jews for several centuries is completely unbelievable.

It's perfectly legitimate criticize an evil action done by the RCC or the RCC's evil history. However to say that those Catholics who don't go along with it or disagree with bad decisions the Pope makes are wannabe Catholics is a dig at our valued Catholic members. Many of those who follow that form of religion today do not follow what the Pope says on every issue and individuals who are sincere should not belittled in such a fashion.

Your posts seem to come from an air of "I'm holier than thou". It's not so much the topics you're discussing but how you discuss them that gives people the impression that you're always making digs.

RS,

Im sorry if that is the impression which I have created. I would like to change that. I think we all share the same goals here. I was attracted to JTF because I want Israel to be strong, for Islam to be defeated, and for Chaim to be able to make Aliyah. Along the way I would like to discuss Jewish topics and Torah wisdom with fellow Jews.

Regarding the post where I said that those who don't follow the theology of the religion are 'wanna bes'. Im sorry if that offended anyone. But we do judge the less-observant Jews who follow the Judaism-lite approach. I take the Pope to be the head and mouth-piece for the RCC {which according to its own doctrine the Pope is the instrument of G-d}. It is very important to let the leader of such an influential organization know that what is happening is causing damage to the good-will which was created by previous Popes for the Jewish people. Once again I was not trying to dismiss the poster as being not a good Catholic but I just tried to express my view of Religion in general. We here at JTF are honest that there is no such thing as a Moderate Muslim because the Koran expressly calls for killing of infidels. I am not an expert on other religions and I believe it is a good thing for people to have faith in their religion. I would like to strengthen any spiritual bond anyone has with the creator of the world.

Please attempt to understand what I am saying. I am not saying anything in anger or to intimidate. I am looking for a peaceful solution in order to assist the era of peace which our prophets have foretold.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I did not attack the church or anyone.

Do you really want me to start?

I was right, you were wrong.

Show me where I said that we should not petition the pope to change or modify his ruling on Williamson.

I have said that their history is full of some very gruesome events and this cannot be disputed.

Classic strawman--look it up, if you don't know what that is.

I am willing to forgive if the apology is sincere.

Yeah, that's why you said again that you don't like the pope, even after he did this.

If you think there is not good reason for Jews to be upset then you are mistaken.

Strawman.

I am not the only one upset by this, and apparently high-ranking members in the church have even called for the Pope to step down.

I said clearly that we should give him credit to listening to the protests of Christians and Jews.

So you may want to blame me for this, but that would be classical antisemitism.

Man, have you been smoking anything?

PS: Remember the story of Channukah when the Maccabees stood up to the Greeks? That was less than 4000 years ago... More like 2500 years ago... Jews have stood up against evil and succeeded.

Are you comparing me to the Greeks or what? LOL.

[Rubystars]

Im sorry if that is the impression which I have created. I would like to change that. I think we all share the same goals here. I was attracted to JTF because I want Israel to be strong, for Islam to be defeated, and for Chaim to be able to make Aliyah. Along the way I would like to discuss Jewish topics and Torah wisdom with fellow Jews.

Great goals. Now how will you accomplish them? Chaim has said he supports the USA being a Christian country. I'm assuming you disagree with this goal.

Regarding the post where I said that those who don't follow the theology of the religion are 'wanna bes'. Im sorry if that offended anyone.

IF?

But we do judge the less-observant Jews who follow the Judaism-lite approach. I take the Pope to be the head and mouth-piece for the RCC {which according to its own doctrine the Pope is the instrument of G-d}. It is very important to let the leader of such an influential organization know that what is happening is causing damage to the good-will which was created by previous Popes for the Jewish people. Once again I was not trying to dismiss the poster as being not a good Catholic but I just tried to express my view of Religion in general. We here at JTF are honest that there is no such thing as a Moderate Muslim because the Koran expressly calls for killing of infidels. I am not an expert on other religions and I believe it is a good thing for people to have faith in their religion. I would like to strengthen any spiritual bond anyone has with the creator of the world.

You seemed to want to weaken the bond they had with God and force them to worship the Pope's every word. At some points in history the average person was not very well educated nor did they have direct access to any scriptures themselves. Everything they knew came down from priests. That's one reason why they acted in more of a sheeple fashion. These days almost everyone can read what are considered holy texts for themselves and try to understand them and decide which doctrines of their church they agree with.

Because Catholicism is so widespread, there are many variations of belief among the different people involved in it. You can't have a huge organization like that whose members all agree on everything, and so with that same logic, it's impossible for one man (the Pope) to speak in ways in which all members will agree with him. The RCC is not exactly a little cult like David Koresh's Waco thing where everyone is of one mind.

If we have Catholic members who acknowledge the bad things in the past and are sincerely trying to help us today, I think we should welcome them. I'm not a Catholic and I have my own problems with the RCC as far as doctrine goes, but I don't like seeing Catholics on the forum belittled if they want to help and are good people. I had Catholic members in my family from my father's side and as far as I know none of them ever said anything evil against Jews and at least two of them were WW2 veterans.