orthodox jew wanna be [censored] rappa what would chaim and david think of this guy?

[Mishmaat]

It's not new, Run-DMC and Aerosmith did that 20 years ago and Public Enemy and Anthrax did it about 17 years ago.   

"Walk This Way" and "Bring The Noise". The concept certainly isn't new, but the term was recently coined.

[jdl4ever]

Although some of your technical points may be correct I think you are also over generalising things. Etta James could project herself quite effectively without a mic, and although I love Maria Callas I find Opera terribly boring, all technique and for me often no substance. I think because it is so unnatural. People don't communicate that way, wailing at one another! Lotsa technique, but very dull for me. Though I did hear some Wagner opera music yesterday that way pretty intense.   

Actually, if you practice singing yourself you will see that there are indeed 3 basic styles.  Any pop singer that projects themselves are really using opera style musical technique of singing through your chest.   It is true that classical western opera is too dull and not emotionally moving but there are exceptions and modern broadway style opera is very moving.  The European Cantors sang hands down the best opera musical style since they were very dynamic and moving since they were essentially praying to G-d.  I just called it opera style since that what most people understand but really goes back thousands of years and should be called "singing through one's chest". 

[Allen-T]

It's not new, Run-DMC and Aerosmith did that 20 years ago and Public Enemy and Anthrax did it about 17 years ago.   

"Walk This Way" and "Bring The Noise". The concept certainly isn't new, but the term was recently coined.

Some "modern" artists I like; Robbie Williams, Moby & Pink. But very occasionally!!  

[Allen-T]

Although some of your technical points may be correct I think you are also over generalising things. Etta James could project herself quite effectively without a mic, and although I love Maria Callas I find Opera terribly boring, all technique and for me often no substance. I think because it is so unnatural. People don't communicate that way, wailing at one another! Lotsa technique, but very dull for me. Though I did hear some Wagner opera music yesterday that way pretty intense.   

Actually, if you practice singing yourself you will see that there are indeed 3 basic styles.  Any pop singer that projects themselves are really using opera style musical technique of singing through your chest.   It is true that classical western opera is too dull and not emotionally moving but there are exceptions and modern broadway style opera is very moving.  The European Cantors sang hands down the best opera musical style since they were very dynamic and moving since they were essentially praying to G-d.  I just called it opera style since that what most people understand but really goes back thousands of years and should be called "singing through one's chest". 

I had a record of Cantorial singing awhile back, some of the names were Roitman, hmmmmm, I forget now, I sold the LP about 3 months ago. But you are right, that was quite good. Have you ever heard Meredith Monk? If so what do you think about her? I like her alot.

[dawntreader]

I find that kind of talk rather disturbing.

Mattisyahu is an example of goodness in an otherwise trash filled musical arena. His music is a mix of rap and Reggae but has anyone stopped to listen to the Lyrics? They ALL praise Hashem!

In regular gangsta rap, most of the time it talks exclusively of the gold they've got round their necks, what kind of awesome car they've got, who they're going to bust a cap on and that kind of nonsense.

The style of music is not what is wicked. It's the message behind it. When the message changes...and if that message is a blessing to G-d...then who are you or anyone else to judge it?

[Allen-T]

I find that kind of talk rather disturbing.

Mattisyahu is an example of goodness in an otherwise trash filled musical arena. His music is a mix of rap and Reggae but has anyone stopped to listen to the Lyrics? They ALL praise Hashem!

In regular gangsta rap, most of the time it talks exclusively of the gold they've got round their necks, what kind of awesome car they've got, who they're going to bust a cap on and that kind of nonsense.

The style of music is not what is wicked. It's the message behind it. When the message changes...and if that message is a blessing to G-d...then who are you or anyone else to judge it?

Exactly!

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "...Where it came from; originators; when it became..."

I find myself quite bemused by the previous music lovers' opinions about music & musics.

If one truly wants to know and understand as much as possible about music, the first thing to always remember is that music, and the music business, are not one and the same.

Researching music and music history will dispel most of the views of the posters which I have been reading.

Music History JTF 101 (in a nutshell):
1.  Earliest musics are essiantially unknown to modern man.
2.  Western musics are based on the knowledge of the ancient Greeks.
3.  Because early Muslims and Christians burned every manuscript they could find, only scraps of Greek music remain.
4.  Musicologists consider that the traditional music of India is the closest we have today similar to that of the ancient world.
5.  ALL modern western music theory, harmony, and composition, has its origins in The Roman Catholic Church.  Other musics have developed respective to ethnicity (folk musics of different peoples), but were never formalized.
6.  Rome, being the center of the Church, was the musical capital of Europe.  As Europe evolved, so did its music.  Great composers appeared in Austria, Britain, Holland, France; most if not all subsidized by society's elite; often as "Court Musician".  Eventually, it was Germany which became the area in which modern music developed the most; this in spite of it being the last region to adapt music as an art form.  Until just recently, serious students of music did their studies in Germany.
7.  Negro musics indigenous to western Africa crossed the Atlantic with the slave ships, and was then assimmilated into the Western church-derived arts of musical composition and notation.  Our modern "Blues", "Black Gospel singing", "R'n'B", "Rock'n'Roll", "Swing", "Jazz", genres, as well as their danceable rhythms, were originated by African slaves.  Gershwin and other popular songwriters, based their compositions on the negro styles; not the other way around. 

If one truly wants to know and understand music, pick one genre which is your favorite, and research it thoroughly; beginning with the present, and working backwards in time.

The labels which the "music industry" affix to market their products, are most often absurd & irrelevant.


   

[Allen-T]

Re:  "...Where it came from; originators; when it became..."

I find myself quite bemused by the previous music lovers' opinions about music & musics.

If one truly wants to know and understand as much as possible about music, the first thing to always remember is that music, and the music business, are not one and the same.

Researching music and music history will dispel most of the views of the posters which I have been reading.

Music History JTF 101 (in a nutshell):
1.  Earliest musics are essiantially unknown to modern man.
2.  Western musics are based on the knowledge of the ancient Greeks.
3.  Because early Muslims and Christians burned every manuscript they could find, only scraps of Greek music remain.
4.  Musicologists consider that the traditional music of India is the closest we have today similar to that of the ancient world.
5.  ALL modern western music theory, harmony, and composition, has its origins in The Roman Catholic Church.  Other musics have developed respective to ethnicity (folk musics of different peoples), but were never formalized.
6.  Rome, being the center of the Church, was the musical capital of Europe.  As Europe evolved, so did its music.  Great composers appeared in Austria, Britain, Holland, France; most if not all subsidized by society's elite; often as "Court Musician".  Eventually, it was Germany which became the area in which modern music developed the most; this in spite of it being the last region to adapt music as an art form.  Until just recently, serious students of music did their studies in Germany.
7.  Negro musics indigenous to western Africa crossed the Atlantic with the slave ships, and was then assimmilated into the Western church-derived arts of musical composition and notation.  Our modern "Blues", "Black Gospel singing", "R'n'B", "Rock'n'Roll", "Swing", "Jazz", genres, as well as their danceable rhythms, were originated by African slaves.  Gershwin and other popular songwriters, based their compositions on the negro styles; not the other way around. 

If one truly wants to know and understand music, pick one genre which is your favorite, and research it thoroughly; beginning with the present, and working backwards in time.

The labels which the "music industry" affix to market their products, are most often absurd & irrelevant.


   

How do the developments within certain styles over shorter periods of time discussed here contradict your larger panoramic overview? I am just trying to find what exactly it is you said that should render things stated here by myself and others as disposable? 

[jdl4ever]

I disagree with Mussadahgoodname.  Roman Catholic music definitely did not come first.  It is most likely a copy from the Choir style music the levites sang in the temple.  I think all ancient cultures had there own musical style but we will never know about it since all manuscripts were probably destroyed. 

[Allen-T]

I disagree with Mussadahgoodname.  Roman Catholic music definitely did not come first.  It is most likely a copy from the Choir style music the levites sang in the temple.  I think all ancient cultures had there own musical style but we will never know about it since all manuscripts were probably destroyed. 

Jews have always embraced rhythm, no? Is there any indication that the Levite music you mention was rhythmic?   The Roman Catholic church was directly responsible for destroying musical rhythms, especially in church music. Ever heard Gregorian chants? Yikes!!!  Massuhdagoodname, what would you say is the step by step lineage between Bach and say Stockhausen or Boulez? Your writings seem to imply there is nothing new under the sun. 

[jdl4ever]

Nothing is known about the exact style of the temple era.  All that we know is that a group of levites sang at the temple constantly.  There were levite families that sang, others which played instraments and others that took care of the temple.  The exact instraments used at that time and the number of instrament players at a given time is menchaned in the Mishnah.  These jobs were familial and would stay in the family for hundreds of years.  They probably had good rythem since one of the instraments was a drum or cymbal.  I don't remember the Mishnah by memory but I think that there was a harp, a drum or cymbal and some other instraments.  From the fact that there were many singers and not one, it indicates that songs were sang in harmony or in choir style.   Was there a lead singer or not is unclear.  Personally, I think that cantorial music is similar to the original temple music.  My grandfather and great grandfather who were cantors would train a choir to sing with them on high holidays in Synagague and would pray with a choir.  Shlomo Carlebach said that the only original temple songs in existance are the sad traditional tunes sung by Jews in prayer on the Day of Attonement but I don't know if he is correct or not. 

[dawntreader]

I disagree with Mussadahgoodname.  Roman Catholic music definitely did not come first.  It is most likely a copy from the Choir style music the levites sang in the temple.  I think all ancient cultures had there own musical style but we will never know about it since all manuscripts were probably destroyed. 

Jews have always embraced rhythm, no? Is there any indication that the Levite music you mention was rhythmic?   The Roman Catholic church was directly responsible for destroying musical rhythms, especially in church music. Ever heard Gregorian chants? Yikes!!!  Massuhdagoodname, what would you say is the step by step lineage between Bach and say Stockhausen or Boulez? Your writings seem to imply there is nothing new under the sun. 

LOL jdl4ever....nothing new under the sun. You realize of course, that's exactly what King Solomon said in Ecclesiastes. Right?

Ecclesiastes 1:9 JPS

9 That which hath been is that which shall be, and that which hath been done is that which shall be done; and there is nothing new under the sun.

[dawntreader]

Oops!

That was supposed to be to Allen-T

[Allen-T]

Oops!

That was supposed to be to Allen-T

That's why I said it, it's one of my favorite Bible books However, that doesn't mean that the creative process is futile or to be discarded. 

[Din Rodef]

Re:  "...Where it came from; originators; when it became..."

I find myself quite bemused by the previous music lovers' opinions about music & musics.

If one truly wants to know and understand as much as possible about music, the first thing to always remember is that music, and the music business, are not one and the same.

Researching music and music history will dispel most of the views of the posters which I have been reading.

Music History JTF 101 (in a nutshell):
1.  Earliest musics are essiantially unknown to modern man.
2.  Western musics are based on the knowledge of the ancient Greeks.
3.  Because early Muslims and Christians burned every manuscript they could find, only scraps of Greek music remain.
4.  Musicologists consider that the traditional music of India is the closest we have today similar to that of the ancient world.
5.  ALL modern western music theory, harmony, and composition, has its origins in The Roman Catholic Church.  Other musics have developed respective to ethnicity (folk musics of different peoples), but were never formalized.
6.  Rome, being the center of the Church, was the musical capital of Europe.  As Europe evolved, so did its music.  Great composers appeared in Austria, Britain, Holland, France; most if not all subsidized by society's elite; often as "Court Musician".  Eventually, it was Germany which became the area in which modern music developed the most; this in spite of it being the last region to adapt music as an art form.  Until just recently, serious students of music did their studies in Germany.
7.  Negro musics indigenous to western Africa crossed the Atlantic with the slave ships, and was then assimmilated into the Western church-derived arts of musical composition and notation.  Our modern "Blues", "Black Gospel singing", "R'n'B", "Rock'n'Roll", "Swing", "Jazz", genres, as well as their danceable rhythms, were originated by African slaves.  Gershwin and other popular songwriters, based their compositions on the negro styles; not the other way around. 

If one truly wants to know and understand music, pick one genre which is your favorite, and research it thoroughly; beginning with the present, and working backwards in time.

The labels which the "music industry" affix to market their products, are most often absurd & irrelevant.


   

great post massuh D

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "...The Roman Catholic church was directly responsible for destroying musical rhythms, especially in church music...Massuhdagoodname, what would you say is the step by step lineage between Bach and say Stockhausen or Boulez? Your writings seem to imply there is nothing new under the sun.

Pierre Boulez has composed music, but is better known for his conducting skills.

The Roman Catholic Church evolved into the Holy Roman Empire.  It governed Europe after ancient Rome's demise, and governed as a Theocracy comparable to that in Iran today.  Because of The Triune Doctrine, the Church outlawed and banned all music except that in 3/4 meter (3 representing the Holy Trinity).

Connecting the dots from Bach to Stockhausen must involve "giant steps":

Johann Sebastian Bach's body of work is called "The Tanach of Modern Western Music".  Thorough knowledge of his keyboard compositions is a pre-requisite as setting the basics for all music that followed.  Bach also devised the ability to transpose musical keys as well as modulate from one to another within a composition.  He accomplished this by altering the pure vibrational tones found in the natural scale.  The result is the music we love today, and hear as being "in tune".  In fact, it is actually "out of tune".  If you've ever walked past tower bells ringing, which sounded kind of "sour" and "in need of a tune-up", then you've heard the actual pure notes of nature.  Prior to his genius, all musics had to begin and end in the same key structure, and were greatly limited in their harmonic development.

A giant step from J.S. Bach leads us to Ludwig Van Beethoven, whose body of piano compositions are known today as "The New Testament of Modern Western Music".  Beethoven expanded the existing symphonic structure, composed radically different works, and paved the way for the musical composers of the 20th Century.

After Beethoven, another giant step over to Richard Wagner.  One of history's greatest artists, Wagner developed the orchestral concept of "Polytonality"; composition unlimited in key tonality; able to begin in one key, and immediately and continuously modulate from one key to another, in an endless harmonic structure of incredible complexity and depth.

Because of Wagner, the next giant step was to be expanded by the composers known today as The Second Vienna School.  These great musicians built upon all previous forms, experimenting with innovative notation, innovative scoring, and the radical Serial Composition; basing entire large scale works on scalar models derived from numerical computations; including the reliance on chance as to the placement of notes.  These giants of music, among whom were many Jews, made a tremendous impact on the world of art; so much so that Hitler chased each and every one out of Europe and banned the study or performance of their music.  Today the "way out" music we take for granted in science fiction movie soundtracks, and on TV scores, is very likely based on their creativie innovations.

The Second Vienna School is also associated with the modern ideas of "Electronic Composition"  made quite acceptable by composer Karl-Heinz Stockhausen.  Today, computer composition, as well as performance on computer generated synthesized instruments of every kind, is taken for granted.

Personally, I do indeed believe that 'there is nothing new under the Sun".  This is stated in the Jewish Scriptures, and it is possible that greater and more progressive musical and technological developments than we know today, were developed by other civilizations thousands of years ago, unknown to us because they've been lost to antiquity.

[Allen-T]

Re:  "...The Roman Catholic church was directly responsible for destroying musical rhythms, especially in church music...Massuhdagoodname, what would you say is the step by step lineage between Bach and say Stockhausen or Boulez? Your writings seem to imply there is nothing new under the sun.

Pierre Boulez has composed music, but is better known for his conducting skills.

The Roman Catholic Church evolved into the Holy Roman Empire.  It governed Europe after ancient Rome's demise, and governed as a Theocracy comparable to that in Iran today.  Because of The Triune Doctrine, the Church outlawed and banned all music except that in 3/4 meter (3 representing the Holy Trinity).

Connecting the dots from Bach to Stockhausen must involve "giant steps":

Johann Sebastian Bach's body of work is called "The Tanach of Modern Western Music".  Thorough knowledge of his keyboard compositions is a pre-requisite as setting the basics for all music that followed.  Bach also devised the ability to transpose musical keys as well as modulate from one to another within a composition.  He accomplished this by altering the pure vibrational tones found in the natural scale.  The result is the music we love today, and hear as being "in tune".  In fact, it is actually "out of tune".  If you've ever walked past tower bells ringing, which sounded kind of "sour" and "in need of a tune-up", then you've heard the actual pure notes of nature.  Prior to his genius, all musics had to begin and end in the same key structure, and were greatly limited in their harmonic development.

A giant step from J.S. Bach leads us to Ludwig Van Beethoven, whose body of piano compositions are known today as "The New Testament of Modern Western Music".  Beethoven expanded the existing symphonic structure, composed radically different works, and paved the way for the musical composers of the 20th Century.

After Beethoven, another giant step over to Richard Wagner.  One of history's greatest artists, Wagner developed the orchestral concept of "Polytonality"; composition unlimited in key tonality; able to begin in one key, and immediately and continuously modulate from one key to another, in an endless harmonic structure of incredible complexity and depth.

Because of Wagner, the next giant step was to be expanded by the composers known today as The Second Vienna School.  These great musicians built upon all previous forms, experimenting with innovative notation, innovative scoring, and the radical Serial Composition; basing entire large scale works on scalar models derived from numerical computations; including the reliance on chance as to the placement of notes.  These giants of music, among whom were many Jews, made a tremendous impact on the world of art; so much so that Hitler chased each and every one out of Europe and banned the study or performance of their music.  Today the "way out" music we take for granted in science fiction movie soundtracks, and on TV scores, is very likely based on their creativie innovations.

The Second Vienna School is also associated with the modern ideas of "Electronic Composition"  made quite acceptable by composer Karl-Heinz Stockhausen.  Today, computer composition, as well as performance on computer generated synthesized instruments of every kind, is taken for granted.

Personally, I do indeed believe that 'there is nothing new under the Sun".  This is stated in the Jewish Scriptures, and it is possible that greater and more progressive musical and technological developments than we know today, were developed by other civilizations thousands of years ago, unknown to us because they've been lost to antiquity.

Very informative. Are you a professional musician or do you work professionally in some musical capacity?

[jdl4ever]

Just an hour ago I turned on the radio to find something good to listen too and there is absolutely no good music today.  It's all crap.  Either it's the same thing over and over again or it's just so much studio digital effects that it sounds so fake.  Why must every song played on the radio be dubbed, frequently more than once? And why does every female vocal have computerized pitch shifting in it?  What fake nonsense.  The 1980's was the last good decade of music.  Answer me this.  Is there any recent song on the radio that is not dubbed or pitch shifted?  There are almost none.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "...Very informative. Are you a professional musician or do you work professionally in some musical capacity?..."

WORK?

"So...who wants to work?.... We're musicians!"  -- Bob Hope, to the Hotel Lounge Manager who just threw him & Bing & their band out into the back alley and promised them "I'll see to it that YOU WILL NEVER WORK AGAIN!" from Paramount Studios' "The Road To Rio"

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "...Just an hour ago I turned on the radio to find something good to listen too and there is absolutely no good music today.  It's all crap..."

It's much, much worse than crap.  I agree with you completely.  I do know where fantastic stuff is to be found & heard.  None is on the radio or television.  Depending on your tastes, I might could point the direction for you.  Very little of it, almost none, is current.  However, you stress the word "good"; as opposed to current.  Private message me if you have any interest.

[Allen-T]

Just an hour ago I turned on the radio to find something good to listen too and there is absolutely no good music today.  It's all crap.  Either it's the same thing over and over again or it's just so much studio digital effects that it sounds so fake.  Why must every song played on the radio be dubbed, frequently more than once? And why does every female vocal have computerized pitch shifting in it?  What fake nonsense.  The 1980's was the last good decade of music.  Answer me this.  Is there any recent song on the radio that is not dubbed or pitch shifted?  There are almost none.

What difference does it make? Buy CDs!! Or if you are really adventurous hit flea markets and garage sales where incredible music can be found on vinyl records for pennies!!![You'll need a turntable, of course]

[Allen-T]

Re:  "...The Roman Catholic church was directly responsible for destroying musical rhythms, especially in church music...Massuhdagoodname, what would you say is the step by step lineage between Bach and say Stockhausen or Boulez? Your writings seem to imply there is nothing new under the sun.

Pierre Boulez has composed music, but is better known for his conducting skills.

The Roman Catholic Church evolved into the Holy Roman Empire.  It governed Europe after ancient Rome's demise, and governed as a Theocracy comparable to that in Iran today.  Because of The Triune Doctrine, the Church outlawed and banned all music except that in 3/4 meter (3 representing the Holy Trinity).

Connecting the dots from Bach to Stockhausen must involve "giant steps":

Johann Sebastian Bach's body of work is called "The Tanach of Modern Western Music".  Thorough knowledge of his keyboard compositions is a pre-requisite as setting the basics for all music that followed.  Bach also devised the ability to transpose musical keys as well as modulate from one to another within a composition.  He accomplished this by altering the pure vibrational tones found in the natural scale.  The result is the music we love today, and hear as being "in tune".  In fact, it is actually "out of tune".  If you've ever walked past tower bells ringing, which sounded kind of "sour" and "in need of a tune-up", then you've heard the actual pure notes of nature.  Prior to his genius, all musics had to begin and end in the same key structure, and were greatly limited in their harmonic development.

A giant step from J.S. Bach leads us to Ludwig Van Beethoven, whose body of piano compositions are known today as "The New Testament of Modern Western Music".  Beethoven expanded the existing symphonic structure, composed radically different works, and paved the way for the musical composers of the 20th Century.

After Beethoven, another giant step over to Richard Wagner.  One of history's greatest artists, Wagner developed the orchestral concept of "Polytonality"; composition unlimited in key tonality; able to begin in one key, and immediately and continuously modulate from one key to another, in an endless harmonic structure of incredible complexity and depth.

Because of Wagner, the next giant step was to be expanded by the composers known today as The Second Vienna School.  These great musicians built upon all previous forms, experimenting with innovative notation, innovative scoring, and the radical Serial Composition; basing entire large scale works on scalar models derived from numerical computations; including the reliance on chance as to the placement of notes.  These giants of music, among whom were many Jews, made a tremendous impact on the world of art; so much so that Hitler chased each and every one out of Europe and banned the study or performance of their music.  Today the "way out" music we take for granted in science fiction movie soundtracks, and on TV scores, is very likely based on their creativie innovations.

The Second Vienna School is also associated with the modern ideas of "Electronic Composition"  made quite acceptable by composer Karl-Heinz Stockhausen.  Today, computer composition, as well as performance on computer generated synthesized instruments of every kind, is taken for granted.

Personally, I do indeed believe that 'there is nothing new under the Sun".  This is stated in the Jewish Scriptures, and it is possible that greater and more progressive musical and technological developments than we know today, were developed by other civilizations thousands of years ago, unknown to us because they've been lost to antiquity.

MassahDGoodname,
Help me out here. In your writing above you acknowledge these giant steps from Bach to Stockhausen. Was each step "something new under the sun" if not completely than at least considerably so and if that is true, than is it since a certain period within the last century that things stopped being "new"?  Or, would you say that all of what you stated would fall under the description "there's nothing new under the sun" and if so, why? I hope that makes sense. Thanks.

[Allen-T]

Re:  "...Very informative. Are you a professional musician or do you work professionally in some musical capacity?..."

WORK?

"So...who wants to work?.... We're musicians!"  -- Bob Hope, to the Hotel Lounge Manager who just threw him & Bing & their band out into the back alley and promised them "I'll see to it that YOU WILL NEVER WORK AGAIN!" from Paramount Studios' "The Road To Rio"

Some people are blessed that they actually get paid to do what they love. I was just wondering if this was the case for you.