If anyone wants to have a battle of with with some athiests/pagans, let me know

[briann]

What is the difference between 'Theistic evolution' and 'Intelligent Design'? 

Theistic evolution is belief that G-d created and designed intelligently by working through natural processes such as biological evolution. Intelligent design is less continuous, it thinks G-d stepped in and intervened at different points.

For example Hugh Ross, an old earth creationist, and also an intelligent design advocate, thinks there are a lot of what appear to be transitional whales because G-d kept coming in and creating new whale species.

I think there are transitional whales because they were transitional, but G-d was involved in guiding their development.

I sorta see what you are saying... but I would think that an evolutionist would think that 'Intelligent design' is more logical and supportive of evolutionary anthropology... NOT... 'theistic evolution'.

The reason is that there are TONS of dead-end species.... A vast majority of species that existed in the past are NOT directly related to current species.  Why would God do this?  Why would God create primate after primate, hominid after hominid, reptile after reptile, etc etc and then kill them off? Do you think God actively killed each of these species? or do you think the species died because they were less able to survive and get enough food, etc?

I'm also confused by your earlier statements... because on one hand... you sound like you are very skeptical of anything that isnt based on science... and then on the other hand you support a form of evolution that seems even more far-fetched 'to an evolutionist' than intelligent design.

[drlmg]

I do not understand atheists at all. At this time in my life it seems so clear to me that Hashem has been so kind to me all my life. Even when I was far from him I know he was protecting me, giving me slack because he knew I would come back to him. This is the miracle of Teshuva, the Jewish super-concept of repentance, and Hashem has promised it to each and every Jew. I honestly can say that I see miracles each and every day. I say several blessings on all the goodness and beauty which I see around me. Even the ugly and the bad I say blessings on, such as the dead animals I see every day as I drive to work. It is sad to think people live in a world without a loving father. I told my mother that without my faith I would certainly have fallen into a deep pit due to the challenges in my life six years ago. I was saved from the pit by a strong hand and a mighty arm, he saved me from depression and going down the path of drugs and craziness. Instead I found holy people doing kiruv at the synagogue which is down the street from me. I separated from the bad people and started to study Torah. As sure as the sun rises my life turned around in a matter of eight months. I had lost a job in 2002 and went without work till August 2003, eight months after joining an Orthodox minyan. I don't believe material possessions are the true blessing, but Hashem does provide what you need. My material blessings increased speedily. I am able to sustain a man who would be homeless if not for my charity. Charity is called Tzedakkah in hebrew, which is also the word for Righteousness. A Tzadik is a righteous man. Doing Mitzvot for a Jew should be like breathing air. I have been so joyous for the last six years doing all the holiday related mitzvot. I seek to beautify the mitzvahs as a true Chassid should.

I just want to say that those who don't have Emmunah {Faith} are missing out on a very human nature. We are made in Hashems image and it is up to us to make use of our G-dly potential. We are different from animals and we are capable of understanding and performing the miracles that Hashem provided through his holy mitzvot.

 

Wow, that is absolutely beautiful. I mean this seriously. You are truly an inspiration to me. I have been taught well by my parents and upbringing but I find myself astray from time to time (actually a lot) and to hear such as you have written sort of slaps me in the face (I need it) with reality and reminds me of what I am missing. It also reminds me of my responsibilities. Even things we know tend to fall by the wayside when we get too caught up in our daily life and do not make time for G*d. You must be a truly great man.

[drlmg]

Wow, I am very impressed by the messages here. It is obvious that there are some very intelligent people here.

[Rubystars]

I sorta see what you are saying... but I would think that an evolutionist would think that 'Intelligent design' is more logical and supportive of evolutionary anthropology... NOT... 'theistic evolution'.

In order to understand it you have to realize that "Intelligent Design" as it's usually referred to does not have the same meaning as "Designed intelligently by God".

This is the biggest thing that confuses people and that's why it's so hard to explain.

The "ID movement" is a ruse to get creationism taught side by side with science in schools, and nothing more.

You can believe that God intelligently designed the universe and life and at the same time reject the "Intelligent Design" movement.

The ID advocates chose that name on purpose to be tricky and devious and confuse people. I mean if you came up to me and asked me if the universe was designed by an intelligent God, I'd say yes, but that's not the same as following the "Intelligent Design" movement.

The reason is that there are TONS of dead-end species.... A vast majority of species that existed in the past are NOT directly related to current species.  Why would G-d do this?

That's a great question. One of the things I learned in biology is that every species in an ecosystem affects every other species in an ecosystem. There were other species who have descendants that live on today whose ancestors were affected by now-extinct predators, prey, or competitors for resources that helped  the living species to become what they are today. For example maybe a bunch of shrew-like animals were getting eaten on the ground, so they took to the trees, and became what's known as a tree shrew. The predators that were eating them might be gone now, but tree-shrew like animals eventually became primates.

Why would G-d create primate after primate, hominid after hominid, reptile after reptile, etc etc and then kill them off?

Since God is the one who created them, God has the right to destroy them. Also some species may have served a purpose for a time but then it was God's will for them to be gone and either leave descendant species, or go extinct. I don't think there would be room on the Earth for human beings if all the creatures of the past were alive today. When the dinosaurs for example died out, about 65 million years ago, it left a lot of gaps open for mammals and other types of creatures to fill. On the other hand, maybe they were needed to shape the early mammals and other creatures in the first place by interacting with them.

Do you think G-d actively killed each of these species? or do you think the species died because they were less able to survive and get enough food, etc?

I think that God allowed different things to happen, or willed different things to happen, but worked through the processes that He already created. For example floods, volcanic eruptions, and meteor strikes are natural events, but God can definitely influence them. If a farmer prays for rain, and God grants it, you don't see a big bucket miraculously come down and water the crops, you see a storm cloud roll in and then rain.

I'm also confused by your earlier statements... because on one hand... you sound like you are very skeptical of anything that isnt based on science... and then on the other hand you support a form of evolution that seems even more far-fetched 'to an evolutionist' than intelligent design.

I accept what science has to say, I just believe that God is in control.

[muman613]

I do not understand atheists at all. At this time in my life it seems so clear to me that Hashem has been so kind to me all my life. Even when I was far from him I know he was protecting me, giving me slack because he knew I would come back to him. This is the miracle of Teshuva, the Jewish super-concept of repentance, and Hashem has promised it to each and every Jew. I honestly can say that I see miracles each and every day. I say several blessings on all the goodness and beauty which I see around me. Even the ugly and the bad I say blessings on, such as the dead animals I see every day as I drive to work. It is sad to think people live in a world without a loving father. I told my mother that without my faith I would certainly have fallen into a deep pit due to the challenges in my life six years ago. I was saved from the pit by a strong hand and a mighty arm, he saved me from depression and going down the path of drugs and craziness. Instead I found holy people doing kiruv at the synagogue which is down the street from me. I separated from the bad people and started to study Torah. As sure as the sun rises my life turned around in a matter of eight months. I had lost a job in 2002 and went without work till August 2003, eight months after joining an Orthodox minyan. I don't believe material possessions are the true blessing, but Hashem does provide what you need. My material blessings increased speedily. I am able to sustain a man who would be homeless if not for my charity. Charity is called Tzedakkah in hebrew, which is also the word for Righteousness. A Tzadik is a righteous man. Doing Mitzvot for a Jew should be like breathing air. I have been so joyous for the last six years doing all the holiday related mitzvot. I seek to beautify the mitzvahs as a true Chassid should.

I just want to say that those who don't have Emmunah {Faith} are missing out on a very human nature. We are made in Hashems image and it is up to us to make use of our G-dly potential. We are different from animals and we are capable of understanding and performing the miracles that Hashem provided through his holy mitzvot.

 

Wow, that is absolutely beautiful. I mean this seriously. You are truly an inspiration to me. I have been taught well by my parents and upbringing but I find myself astray from time to time (actually a lot) and to hear such as you have written sort of slaps me in the face (I need it) with reality and reminds me of what I am missing. It also reminds me of my responsibilities. Even things we know tend to fall by the wayside when we get too caught up in our daily life and do not make time for G*d. You must be a truly great man.

It gives me such joy that I have lit the spark in you. Do not let the flame die out no matter what discoveries are made in science. There is no explanation for science except that it is the discovery of Hashems hand in the physical universe. We believe that there is another universe which is not visible to the physical, it is the spiritual universe and it is infinite like Hashem.

I dont believe that science holds the key to mankinds spiritual evolution yet it does provide explanations for our physical existance. I work in high-tech and yet I see my creation as a mirror of Hashems creation. I have been able to observe Shabbat for six years now and I enjoy stopping all creative efforts for one day. It is a visible sign of my faith that G-d has control of the world.

Thank you for your kind words. I hope that we can spread the flame of faith to the four corners of the world.

 

[~Hanna~]

Yes, this is beautiful....

I do not understand atheists at all. At this time in my life it seems so clear to me that Hashem has been so kind to me all my life. Even when I was far from him I know he was protecting me, giving me slack because he knew I would come back to him. This is the miracle of Teshuva, the Jewish super-concept of repentance, and Hashem has promised it to each and every Jew. I honestly can say that I see miracles each and every day. I say several blessings on all the goodness and beauty which I see around me. Even the ugly and the bad I say blessings on, such as the dead animals I see every day as I drive to work. It is sad to think people live in a world without a loving father. I told my mother that without my faith I would certainly have fallen into a deep pit due to the challenges in my life six years ago. I was saved from the pit by a strong hand and a mighty arm, he saved me from depression and going down the path of drugs and craziness. Instead I found holy people doing kiruv at the synagogue which is down the street from me. I separated from the bad people and started to study Torah. As sure as the sun rises my life turned around in a matter of eight months. I had lost a job in 2002 and went without work till August 2003, eight months after joining an Orthodox minyan. I don't believe material possessions are the true blessing, but Hashem does provide what you need. My material blessings increased speedily. I am able to sustain a man who would be homeless if not for my charity. Charity is called Tzedakkah in hebrew, which is also the word for Righteousness. A Tzadik is a righteous man. Doing Mitzvot for a Jew should be like breathing air. I have been so joyous for the last six years doing all the holiday related mitzvot. I seek to beautify the mitzvahs as a true Chassid should.

I just want to say that those who don't have Emmunah {Faith} are missing out on a very human nature. We are made in Hashems image and it is up to us to make use of our G-dly potential. We are different from animals and we are capable of understanding and performing the miracles that Hashem provided through his holy mitzvot.

 

Wow, that is absolutely beautiful. I mean this seriously. You are truly an inspiration to me. I have been taught well by my parents and upbringing but I find myself astray from time to time (actually a lot) and to hear such as you have written sort of slaps me in the face (I need it) with reality and reminds me of what I am missing. It also reminds me of my responsibilities. Even things we know tend to fall by the wayside when we get too caught up in our daily life and do not make time for G*d. You must be a truly great man.

[briann]

Most of which you say... I agree with...however.... I just don't believe there is anything theological about species dying off...  its just simple lack of food/nutrition, or too many predators.

And I think that Intelligent design accepts this.  It says that species are not always going to survive for the very reasons that Darwin stated.

BUT!!!! intelligent design DOES suggest the idea of an intelligent evolution... an idea that certain evolutionary changes are not by accident.  The best example of this... is the human brain and the human consciousness.  

But again... it doesn't discount the very 'common sence' idea of survival of the fittest.  

[firster555]

Theological devolution could be part of theological evolution. If there were thousands of T-Rex's and Raptors running around when humans arrived we might not have lasted to long. If everything is created for a reason than the end of all things must also be for a reason. If the reasons are to be found in nature who created that nature?

[muman613]

Theological devolution could be part of theological evolution. If there were thousands of T-Rex's and Raptors running around when humans arrived we might not have lasted to long. If everything is created for a reason than the end of all things must also be for a reason. If the reasons are to be found in nature who created that nature?

This is a good point. Everything does happen for a reason. The creator is the only one who knows what the ultimate purpose is.

[~Hanna~]

Very true....

His ways are not our ways....