Christianity and why I support JTF

[Allen-T]

I would like to say some things in regard to why I, Allen-T, a very flawed human being who is also a Christian supports JTF. From time to time I read things on this forum by some Jewish people that really bother me and generally I just let them go. But I have felt for awhile that it might be a good idea to write an open letter about why I support this organisation. I would like all of my friends here at JTF to know me a little better and also to give my perspective about Christian-Jewish relations. I want to say first that in the 11 years I have been a Christian I feel more comfortable and have a sense of being amongst friends on this forum then in most church circles. I feel that I have found an opportunity to use my talents and time here at JTF that is both vital and fulfilling. I have encountered alot of "politics" & "egos" in churches that have sometimes gotten me down. My understanding of Torah Judaism basically comes from listening to Chaim. Chaim has said that in Torah Judaism there is the belief that righteous gentiles will inherit a place in the world to come. According to this teaching there is no need for Jews to try to convert gentiles or vice versa. My understanding of the totality of scripture has led me to another conclusion, and of course that is that there is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ. This is the most basic teaching of Christianity. I think everybody knows this. It seems to me that there are some people amongst my Jewish brothers and sisters that believe that if christianity teaches this, and a christian wants close fellowship with Jews it MUST be to try to convert them. I cannot speak for anyone but myself, but I want to say in that regard, it is not my PURPOSE to convert any Jew to Christianity within JTF. Of course I desire that every Jew accept Christ, I pray for this to occur. But holding that as a personal belief and desire and actively scheming to bring it about under false pretenses is two different things. I believe that JTF has a program for making this world a better place that is compatible with Biblical Christianity. We differ in that Judaism, as I understand it, believes that good works will facilitate the redemption. My belief is that I am saved by the blood of Christ, works are relative to heavenly rewards, not redemption. I am of the Christian school of thought that things are only going to get worse and worse as we move towards the end of the age, but we still have a responsability to fight evil and do what we can, as things collapse, to promote righteousness as much as we can. I know in my heart of hearts that standing by my Jewish brothers and sisters NO MATTER WHAT is what G-d wants from every true Christian. I guess the thing I want most to be communicated here is that we as Christians are compelled to preach the gospel, it is a commandment. But we are respectful people that understand that it is possible to work with others for a common good and respect their feelings about our beliefs. I resent some of the comments I have read here from time to time suggesting all christians have this conversion motive up their sleeve and if not for that they wouldn't help us at all. I am well aware that alot of evil things have been done to Jewish people in the name of Christ. These crimes were perpetuated by evil men that were not acting on any commands of Jesus, but rather their own selfish lusts. Nowhere in the Christian scriptures can one find justification for anti-semitism. If people have been to lazy to study and taken things out of context they did so at the devils direction, not Jesuses. I am grateful and blessed that most of my brothers and sisters here on the forum already know what I am talking about and all is cool and productive and G-d willing these things will muliply and then some, for everyone's benefit.  :              

[Fruit of thy loins]

Hello Allen-T.

I don't get the same karma off you that I do off many Christians.  I was greatly helped as a child by a Christian teacher without whom I think I would not have got into university, and it turns out he was a Messianic Jew who had converted. You said you are Christian for 11 years now - does that mean you converted from some other faith?

[dawntreader]

Thanks for your very thoughtful letter Allen-T.

Just so you know, I personally have no quarell with the majority of American Christians. (I do not believe a majority of catholics are Christians. I have a problem with them because they seem to be obvious idoloters. They pray to statues, they pray to dead people and the list could go on and on.)

However, there are a lot of Christians who are exactly as you describe. Most of them seem to be evangelicals...and not necessarily the regular denominations like Babtists, Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians etc.

Some of the Jews here (Not me) but some are a tad hypocritical. They don't like the idea of conversion etc. but there are Jewish groups who actively engage in proselytizing amongst us Jews too. The big difference is who you happen to think the Messiah is.

The Lubavitchers have adopted a surprising resemblance to some Christian theology...they took their Rebbe's house apart and moved it to Israel and rebuilt it..basically making it a shrine. They also think their Rebbe is going to rise again. (Ala Jesus)

But hey, I guess they are legit cause they are born Jews, they supposedly keep Torah and of course they've got all the trappings of Jewish tradition.

Or is it that a resurrection from the Dead has always been a part of Jewish theology? If so, then we Jews shouldn't have that big of an issue with those who want to say Jesus is the Messiah. Otherwise it's a bit hypocritical.

[Allen-T]

Hello Allen-T.

I don't get the same karma off you that I do off many Christians.  I was greatly helped as a child by a Christian teacher without whom I think I would not have got into university, and it turns out he was a Messianic Jew who had converted. You said you are Christian for 11 years now - does that mean you converted from some other faith?

My upbringing was Catholic. Although I believe that there are some saved Catholics, I don't believe that the institution is Christian in any biblical sense. My favorite book after the Bible is The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop. My journey was basically a rejection of Catholicism and in effect G-d, a period where all I cared about was sex, a period where I thought Charles Manson was the smartest man that ever lived, followed by a period of self-hating white insanity where I was reading stuff like Soul On Ice and Ntozake Shange. During this period I got involved with a black woman from the Caribbean and I have a 14 year old son as a result. My life was decimated by the family court and I was rendered homeless, living in a van for two years because it was the only way I could save the few pennies I had left. During this time I came to accept Christ, and my life has only gotten better since. I met 2 christians during the "van days" one guy named John[actually we met before the van experience], and my beautiful wife, Elizabeth. I left the country at one point because it wasn't possible to work, although I did continue to do my record business from my van!! I lived in the Czech Republic for 5 years with my wife, came back in 2003 and have resumed a relationship with my son, although he has picked up alot of "black-isms" that make things difficult, as you can imagine. But since I have become a Christian I have only become more and more confident it's the truth and like I said my life has been more stable and fulfilling on every level. My wife is wonderful beyond anything I deserve.  [and yes fruit, she's white ]

[Allen-T]

Thanks for your very thoughtful letter Allen-T.

Just so you know, I personally have no quarell with the majority of American Christians. (I do not believe a majority of catholics are Christians. I have a problem with them because they seem to be obvious idoloters. They pray to statues, they pray to dead people and the list could go on and on.)

However, there are a lot of Christians who are exactly as you describe. Most of them seem to be evangelicals...and not necessarily the regular denominations like Babtists, Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians etc.

Some of the Jews here (Not me) but some are a tad hypocritical. They don't like the idea of conversion etc. but there are Jewish groups who actively engage in proselytizing amongst us Jews too. The big difference is who you happen to think the Messiah is.

The Lubavitchers have adopted a surprising resemblance to some Christian theology...they took their Rebbe's house apart and moved it to Israel and rebuilt it..basically making it a shrine. They also think their Rebbe is going to rise again. (Ala Jesus)

But hey, I guess they are legit cause they are born Jews, they supposedly keep Torah and of course they've got all the trappings of Jewish tradition.

Or is it that a resurrection from the Dead has always been a part of Jewish theology? If so, then we Jews shouldn't have that big of an issue with those who want to say Jesus is the Messiah. Otherwise it's a bit hypocritical.

The Lubavitchers Rebbe was Menachem Schneerson, am I correct? I used to see his pictures around Great Neck alot, in fact my landlord has pictures of him in their home.

[cjd]

Thanks for your very thoughtful letter Allen-T.

Just so you know, I personally have no quarell with the majority of American Christians. (I do not believe a majority of catholics are Christians. I have a problem with them because they seem to be obvious idoloters. They pray to statues, they pray to dead people and the list could go on and on.)

However, there are a lot of Christians who are exactly as you describe. Most of them seem to be evangelicals...and not necessarily the regular denominations like Babtists, Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians etc.

Some of the Jews here (Not me) but some are a tad hypocritical. They don't like the idea of conversion etc. but there are Jewish groups who actively engage in proselytizing amongst us Jews too. The big difference is who you happen to think the Messiah is.

The Lubavitchers have adopted a surprising resemblance to some Christian theology...they took their Rebbe's house apart and moved it to Israel and rebuilt it..basically making it a shrine. They also think their Rebbe is going to rise again. (Ala Jesus)

But hey, I guess they are legit cause they are born Jews, they supposedly keep Torah and of course they've got all the trappings of Jewish tradition.

Or is it that a resurrection from the Dead has always been a part of Jewish theology? If so, then we Jews shouldn't have that big of an issue with those who want to say Jesus is the Messiah. Otherwise it's a bit hypocritical.

The part of your post about the idol worshiping Catholics gave me an idea for a business venture. I am going to look into the statuary and idol making business. When Bush opens our southern borders full wide and all the Catholic wetbacks come rushing in they will need plenty of idols for all there new homes maybe the Pope will give them a subsidy. The way them Catholics put them idols up inside and outside there homes I will be rich in no time. Now I have to figure a way to make some dollars on the praying to the dead thing. Just joking my Catholic friends I am just trying to prove a point. By the way didn't Richard Nixon like to keep lists. See all the good they did him.

[Lisa]

Dear Allen-T,

What a nice post.  I'm glad you are participating in the JTF forum, and I really appreciate that you've put up JTF videos on your You Tube account.  But I'm sorry to hear that you've felt bothered by some of the things that viewers have written here.  Have you responded to any of the posters?  Perhaps going forward, you might want to pose what's on your mind to Chaim for the future Ask JTF shows?  You might just feel better by doing so. 

Dawntreader, I would be careful about bashing Catholicism here, as JTF has Catholic supporters.  In fact, I'm not for ridiculing anyone's religion here.  It's hurtful when it's done against us Jews, so we should be careful not to hurt others, especially our fellow JTF'ers. 

Lisa

[Allen-T]

Dear Allen-T,

What a nice post.  I'm glad you are participating in the JTF forum, and I really appreciate that you've put up JTF videos on your You Tube account.  But I'm sorry to hear that you've felt bothered by some of the things that viewers have written here.  Have you responded to any of the posters?  Perhaps going forward, you might want to pose what's on your mind to Chaim for the future Ask JTF shows?  You might just feel better by doing so. 

Dawntreader, I would be careful about bashing Catholicism here, as JTF has Catholic supporters.  In fact, I'm not for ridiculing anyone's religion here.  It's hurtful when it's done against us Jews, so we should be careful not to hurt others, especially our fellow JTF'ers. 

Lisa

Generally I don't respond because I know where it will end up. In fact read these exchanges from earlier today on another thread which prompted me to write this; http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=3464.15
Anyhow thanks for the support. I don't mind if people express a disagreement about Christianity but if you attack it then I want to respond, it's just in my nature. I agree, too, I am no fan of the Catholic institution, but there are very good Catholic people that love Jesus and I am glad to know them. We shouldn't mock them.     

[Din Rodef]

I agree it's not good to bash Catholics

Americans understand that any organization that is large and centrally controlled can become corrupted by a handful of men.

Any church that concentrates power into the hands of a few leaders (Catholic, Mormon, Episcopalian, etc) will always be at risk of corruption.

[Din Rodef]

The part of your post about the idol worshiping Catholics gave me an idea for a business venture. I am going to look into the statuary and idol making business. When Bush opens our southern borders full wide and all the Catholic wetbacks come rushing in they will need plenty of idols for all there new homes maybe the Pope will give them a subsidy. The way them Catholics put them idols up inside and outside there homes I will be rich in no time. Now I have to figure a way to make some dollars on the praying to the dead thing. Just joking my Catholic friends I am just trying to prove a point. By the way didn't Richard Nixon like to keep lists. See all the good they did him.

Hate ta break it to ya CJD but your business venture probably won't make a big profit Over half a million illegal hispanics have invaded my city in the past decade, yet there are hardly any new Catholic Churches. Hrmm....maybe if you sold the idols in a package deal with fake Social Security cards...hrmmm that might work

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "...the idol worshiping Catholics gave me an idea for a business venture..."

I'm afraid you're all "a day late, and a dollar short"!...

Recently I was reading a major headline in The Hindustan Times, regarding the anger among Indian idol makers resulting from the Red Chinese having completely taken over and replaced the Hindu idol making industry of India.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Allen, I am a Christian too. I want to encourage you to please not allow yourself to get down. We know that both Scripture and common sense lead us to support the nation of the Bible and that showed the entire world how to have a relationship with God. Ignore the critics; your work and your heart will win them over in time.

[Allen-T]

The part of your post about the idol worshiping Catholics gave me an idea for a business venture. I am going to look into the statuary and idol making business. When Bush opens our southern borders full wide and all the Catholic wetbacks come rushing in they will need plenty of idols for all there new homes maybe the Pope will give them a subsidy. The way them Catholics put them idols up inside and outside there homes I will be rich in no time. Now I have to figure a way to make some dollars on the praying to the dead thing. Just joking my Catholic friends I am just trying to prove a point. By the way didn't Richard Nixon like to keep lists. See all the good they did him.

Hate ta break it to ya CJD but your business venture probably won't make a big profit Over half a million illegal hispanics have invaded my city in the past decade, yet there are hardly any new Catholic Churches. Hrmm....maybe if you sold the idols in a package deal with fake Social Security cards...hrmmm that might work

My wife was just telling me one of her Mexican students was saying that many Mexicans are converting to Islam. 

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "...They also think their Rebbe is going to rise again. (Ala Jesus)..."

With all due respect, Dawntreader, the Lubavitch concept is the correct one, and it is the Jewish concept which was adapted by those which eventually became known as Christians; not the other way around.

Also, there is at least one Jewish Prophet in the "Tanach" raising the dead back to life, exactly as is attributed to Jesus in the "New Testament" regarding another Jew named Lazarus.

The very ideas of Moshiach, Resurrection of the Dead, Judgement Day, "The End Times", "a New Heaven and New Earth", a "New Jerusalem", etc... are completely Jewish theological innovations.

The actual sad fact, is that the vast majority of Jews worldwide, have no idea what Judaism actually teaches in Torah.  I myself was one of those I refer to, until just recently when I took it upon myself to read Torah in depth from cover to cover, and then seek out the answers to the most perplexing passages I encountered.

As to whether or not the Lubavitch Rebbe is Moshiach, I can't comment; having never met him.  He was and is spoken of with the highest superlatives by all of his peers who mastered Torah and Jewish Law throughout the world.  I do hope and pray that Moshiach arrives soon and sets the world straight!

[Maccabi]

Re:  "...They also think their Rebbe is going to rise again. (Ala Jesus)..."

The actual sad fact, is that the vast majority of Jews worldwide, have no idea what Judaism actually teaches in Torah.  I myself was one of those I refer to, until just recently when I took it upon myself to read Torah in depth from cover to cover, and then seek out the answers to the most perplexing passages I encountered.

Massuh did you learn Hebrew first and read it in Hebrew? Or English? I want to read the Torah but not sure where to start or how to go about the whole thing.

[Dean Edward]

This is a nice solid explanation from good sources about Moshiach.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/mashiach.htm

[Din Rodef]

My wife was just telling me one of her Mexican students was saying that many Mexicans are converting to Islam. 

Yes, that is absolutely true.

They are being taught that they share blood relations with the Moors...and that they are cousins to the muslims.

The Mexicans chant "Osama, Osama!" when they play Americans at soccer.

[Din Rodef]

The big difference is who you happen to think the Messiah is.

Interesting that you say that....

cuz I find that to be the one thing that separates Christians too. Only difference is that Christians are going to be arguing over who they believe is the 2nd coming of the Messiah.

It's time to get scared when Jews find a single person that they believe is the Messiah and the Christians also believe is their resurrected Messiah. If/when this collusion happens then both sides will have identified a false Messiah.

[MassuhDGoodName]

"...I want to read the Torah but not sure where to start or how to go about the whole thing..."

Just find a good old fashioned Bible or Torah and read it!

I could only read a few pages a day, because it's just too intense, and it's packed with heavy duty metaphysics, poor translations, and translations which can only be understood in the context of the times at which they were spoken and written.

In short, if you actually read it and get into it, you'll constantly be searching out ancient Middle Eastern life and cultural attributes. 
Most awesome book I've ever read.  A true mindblower.

And yes...I did previously study Hebrew, but that shouldn't matter to you if you have not done so.  Just get a Bible and start at Genesis and keep going!  It's an amazing and accurate history of a world which was as real as you or I, yet has completely disappeared.

"It's not the parts of The Bible I don't understand which give me the most trouble; it's the parts that I do understand that worry me the most!" -- Mark Twain

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

It's time to get scared when Jews find a single person that they believe is the Messiah and the Christians also believe is their resurrected Messiah. If/when this collusion happens then both sides will have identified a false Messiah.

Print this page, twist and roll it up, cover it with Vaseline, and proceed to pretend it is a d***o and shove it up your tuchis. (Albeit I suspect you already do that plenty.)

Faggot.

[Din Rodef]

It's time to get scared when Jews find a single person that they believe is the Messiah and the Christians also believe is their resurrected Messiah. If/when this collusion happens then both sides will have identified a false Messiah.

Print this page, twist and roll it up, cover it with Vaseline, and proceed to pretend it is a d***o and shove it up your tuchis. (Albeit I suspect you already do that plenty.)

Faggot.

maybe you should read the bible...then you would know what I was referring to when I talked about false Messiah

[Allen-T]

The big difference is who you happen to think the Messiah is.

Interesting that you say that....

cuz I find that to be the one thing that separates Christians too. Only difference is that Christians are going to be arguing over who they believe is the 2nd coming of the Messiah.

It's time to get scared when Jews find a single person that they believe is the Messiah and the Christians also believe is their resurrected Messiah. If/when this collusion happens then both sides will have identified a false Messiah.

Din Rodef, I think that when you say Christians arguing over who they believe is the 2nd coming of Messiah you are referring to "christendom" e.g. the religious that are not saved, correct? True believers could never have this problem, Mark 13: 21-23; "And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or lo, he is there; believe him not. For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders,to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect". I think it's important to make that distinction. And I presume what you are referring to in the second part of your statement is the scenario explained in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2? If so then I agree with you, and I also believe that the rapture would have already occurred at that point.     

[Allen-T]

It's time to get scared when Jews find a single person that they believe is the Messiah and the Christians also believe is their resurrected Messiah. If/when this collusion happens then both sides will have identified a false Messiah.

Print this page, twist and roll it up, cover it with Vaseline, and proceed to pretend it is a d***o and shove it up your tuchis. (Albeit I suspect you already do that plenty.)

Faggot.

Chaimfan why would you say that? There are NT verses that support what Din Rodef is saying, if I understand him correctly. A false messiah that leads much of the world astray is mentioned several times in scripture, as is the concept of religious unsaved "christians" and born-again saved Christians. Revelation 3:16 talks about "christians" that G-d vomits out of his mouth,and this is a relevant verse today as well as a historical admonition to the church at Laodicea, but that would take to much time to explain and this isn't the forum.