Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
The Reversal of Retrograde Rotation
galileerat:
Rav Avigdor Miller had whole chapters in his books showing just the opposite: that science does not allow for a billion year universe!
So you've got the Torah, the Talmud, Lubavitcher rebbe, R.Miller and others, plus all the non-Jewish Creation Scientists (who also have PhDs from MIT etc) presenting hard scientific evidence for a young universe.
And you prefer to hold by the zero evidence of atheist evolutionists?! Oy vey!
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on July 22, 2009, 11:48:56 AM ---Science does not allow for a young 6000 year universe.
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Yochai:
Lubavticher Rebbe's letter to the Association of Orthodox Jewish Scientists, supporting Geocentrism.
http://www.torahscience.org/torahsci/rebbeletter.html
I can tell you as a person who is very close to the Lubavticher community, that most Lubavitchers will agree with the Rebbe and state that the universe is in fact geocentric.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: galileerat on July 22, 2009, 01:23:59 PM ---
Rav Avigdor Miller had whole chapters in his books showing just the opposite: that science does not allow for a billion year universe!
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With great respect for a tzaddik, Rav Avigdor Miller was NOT a scientist and was not trained to examine data with the scientific method. Why put words into the mouths of scientists and 'what science says' or 'what science doesn't say' ? He is giving his opinion, but it is certainly NOT what the science says and not what any legitimate scientists say.
--- Quote ---So you've got the Torah, the Talmud,
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Uh, sorry bud, you can't just wave 'Torah and Talmud' and pretend that it's all a scientific discourse giving a clear opinion of scientific fact as you see it without room for interpretation. This is a lie and a distortion. Terribly sinful to mislead people this way.
--- Quote --- Lubavitcher rebbe, R.Miller and others,
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Rabbis, not scientists. Rabbis giving opinions, not drawing conclusions from observed facts as scientists do. They do not refute the myriad evidence that points very obviously to an old universe and one which contains a planet Earth which revolves around a sun.
And unfortunately I was mistaken because as it turns out from further research, the L. Rebbe was NOT educated or degreed in science.
--- Quote ---plus all the non-Jewish Creation Scientists (who also have PhDs from MIT etc) presenting hard scientific evidence for a young universe.
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It is not "hard evidence" just because you wish it to be so. You will never see a discovery of any value or importance coming from a group of people like 'young earth creationists' because they do not operate in current methodology and simply retread past misconceptions. They are holding blindfolds over the entire process. That is the road to nowhere, not the road to further discovery in science.
--- Quote ---And you prefer to hold by the zero evidence of atheist evolutionists?! Oy vey!
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Whether scientists are atheists or not is not the issue (and not all scientists are atheists). The issue is what is true and provable based on observed facts, and what is mere conjecture or "philosophy of science." But it's quite strange that you say I rely on atheists given the fact that I have already written in this thread several times that my own gemara rebbe (a physicist himself) believes in a universe billions of years old, that fits with scientific fact as he accepted fact in his life as a scientist and continues to do so, and that also fits with his understanding of kabbalah, which is vastly beyond anything you can imagine. As I said before he is a gaon b'Torah, but that is inconsequent as far as what is true scientifically in terms of dating the universe. He is using science there, which has a scientific method that does not include superimposing texts onto the world to force the facts into a singular reading of a text. I also cited Rabbi Gil Student who does not believe in your nonsense, and believes in an old universe consistent with fact. At the same time he is an Orthodox rabbi and no atheist.
Interesting also that you gave up on the name-dropping of Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan. Perhaps you researched a bit and realized how crazy you were to say he believed in geocentrism. He was a physicist afterall. Not in a 'Young earth creationist' cult.
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Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Yochai on July 22, 2009, 08:48:35 PM ---
I can tell you as a person who is very close to the Lubavticher community, that most Lubavitchers will agree with the Rebbe and state that the universe is in fact geocentric.
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And they are also mistaken, but if any of them ever went to university got a degree in biology and then went on to do real scientific research, they would no longer agree to such things. Unless they are delusional. Some people believe anything a certain rebbe says is 100% true and infallible. This to me is poisonous ideology and certainly not consistent with a rebbe being human and rabbis being fallible like anyone else. Not to mention that rabbis with an expertise in Torah often do not have the means or the time to develop an expertise in all other subjects known to man, let alone even a simple example like, say, biochemistry. So it is unreasonable to think such things that rabbis will know everything. Like the Rambam would say, best to consult a doctor about medicine, not a rabbi who is not trained in it. Same here with regards to complicated science.
galileerat:
Does the Jewish date 5769 have any meaning to you?!
"Some people believe in the Torah implicitly, but they believe in evolution too. Exactly how you reconcile evolution with the Torah, that’s not so easy! They do a lot of tongue-twisting to explain that. Later generations will look back and say 'you were meshuggah: how could believe in evolution and believe in the Chumash at the same time?!' ” (Rav Avigdor Miller tape 871).
Evidence for a recent creation include the rate of decrease of the earth and sun's magnetic fields, the rate of decrease in the size of the solar disc, the high residual warmth of the moon and mere half-inch of dust on its surface (which amazed the Apollo astronauts who had been told to expect being swamped!), the decrease in the speed of light, the paucity of helium and micro-meteoric dust in the atmosphere, the rate of mineral deposition into the oceans, the fallacious premises of radiometric dating, the still "unwrapped" state of the arms of the great spiral galaxies, the thickness of Saturn's rings, the continued existence of short-term comets, human population statistics, the dearth of human records and artifacts older than 6000 years, polystrate fossils, the abiogenic theory for the origin of oil, dendochronolgy, pleochroic haloes etc.,
"The universe will exist 6000 years" (Sanhedrin 97)!
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