Is Lubavitch extending the Golus & delaying the Geulah?

[galileerat]

Of all the Haredi groups, although still very far from Kahanism, Chabad is somewhat the closest.

They do sterling work in mekareving Jews worldwide, and even attracting not a few geirim.

But by having more and more Chabad Houses everywhere from Katmandu to Timbuktu, from Alaska to Patagonia, whilst not detracting from the mesirus nefesh of Chabad shlichim, are they not in a sense extending the Galut and delaying the Geulah?

I have heard Shifra Hoffman heavily criticize Chabad on this.

The Torah is the only land-centered religion, and ALL Jews are ideally meant to live in Eretz Yisrael.

Chabad have many mitzva mivtzas: Tefillin campaign, Kashrus campaign, Candle lighting campaign, Family Purity campaign etc; but no "Kibbutz Galuyot Ingathering campaign" - and no Lubavitcher advocates the most important mitzva of Jews going to live permanently in Israel - least of all their local financial donors- i.e. are Chabadniks and their devotees becoming just too comfortable and Golus-centered in their luxy Chabad Houses, and making the Exile "a home away from home"?

If Chabad had appointed an 8th Rebbe it might have been different. The 6th Rebbe, like most rabbis of his era, was strongly opposed to Zionism. The 7th Rebbe strongly supported the security of the State of Israel and opposed "Land for Peace", but only on grounds of pikuach nefesh, and R.Kahane never went to see him, nor the Rebbe request to see him.

Although many average Chabadniks were somewhat sympathetic to R.Kahane, most Lubavitcher leaders of congregations labelled him "a mushuganner".

[muman613]

I think Chabad is great. I donate quite a bit of money each year to Chabad {amongst my other charities I give to}. I do not think that they are delaying the redemption. I believe that the Jewish people would almost be lost without the help of Chabad. Their insistence on teaching and helping Jews do mitzvahs is invaluable. There is no other Jewish group in existance which has assisted our people like Chabad.

There is no point in baseless hatred against Chabad and it's donors.

If you think outreach can be done better than Chabad you are free to start your own organization.

[Dr. Dan]

I think chabad brings Jews closer to Torah even though they are in Galut...that is something that will not change over night...we first need Jews to get off their secular butts before they make Aliya to be honest with you. 

Chabad causes Jews to love Torah more..and I think it is because of love and kindness Chabad brings to all Jews.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

What is the point of a post like this?   So we will all say bad things about Chabad and get into a fighting match over Chabad is good vs Chabad is bad ?    Like any well meaning and righteous group, Chabad does great things, and they also do some things that are not so great or are negative.  One should be wary of the negative.   What is your point?

[Spectator]

What is the point of a post like this?   So we will all say bad things about Chabad and get into a fighting match over Chabad is good vs Chabad is bad ?    Like any well meaning and righteous group, Chabad does great things, and they also do some things that are not so great or are negative.  One should be wary of the negative.   What is your point?

His point is to have us say bad things about Chabad and other good Jews. Check his previous posts and you'll see his intentions.

[galileerat]

Oy, I also love Chabad! And I don't appreciate having unseemly motivations being attributed to me.

The most prominent mitzva of the Torah is yishuv ha'aretz. Like most Haredi groups, this Chabad do not seem to encourage at all.

If the Lubavitcher Rebbe had ordered his hassidim to undertake a "Mitzvas Yishuv Haaretz" campaign with the same zeal and energy that they undertook his other Mitzva Campaigns, Israel would probably have by now another 300,000 Jews in it.

Instead. in the absence of a Rav Kahane, the encouraging of Aliya as a mitzva/act of pikuach nefesh is left to elderly little one-woman band heroines like Shifra Hoffman! http://www.shuva.net/

[Dr. Dan]

Oy, I also love Chabad! And I don't appreciate having unseemly motivations being attributed to me.

The most prominent mitzva of the Torah is yishuv ha'aretz. Like most Haredi groups, this Chabad do not seem to encourage at all.

If the Lubavitcher Rebbe had ordered his hassidim to undertake a "Mitzvas Yishuv Haaretz" campaign with the same zeal and energy that they undertook his other Mitzva Campaigns, Israel would probably have by now another 300,000 Jews in it.

Instead. in the absence of a Rav Kahane, the encouraging of Aliya as a mitzva/act of pikuach nefesh is left to elderly little one-woman band heroines like Shifra Hoffman! http://www.shuva.net/

I respect your opinion of all Jews to live in Eretz Yisrael and not Galut.  It should be the goal of every Jew to make their way there.  However, it's not as easy as it looks.  While it should be encouraged, to live in Israel as a secular Jew is not enough to be a Jew..I believe that it should begin by practicing Judaism appropriately, speaking Hebrew fluently, and then making one's way to Eretz Yisrael. Chabad at least encourages the first part strongly...and i know from that, the rest will follow.  And that's only in times of peace.

[דוד בן זאב אריה]

I have no complaints. If it weren't for Chabad I wouldn't he religious. Chabad isn't my cup of tea I feel more comfortable around The Ashkenazim that I live near but I do go back to Chabad once in a while they brought me back to Judaism. G-d Bless them.

[Moshe92]

It's OK to disagree with Chabad on some issues, but they do a lot of good for the Jews. There is no denying that.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Oy, I also love Chabad! And I don't appreciate having unseemly motivations being attributed to me.

Motivations being attributed to you?   They are transparent!   We all have at least basic reading comprehension and can all think critically.   

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The most prominent mitzva of the Torah is yishuv ha'aretz. Like most Haredi groups, this Chabad do not seem to encourage at all.

If the Lubavitcher Rebbe had ordered his hassidim to undertake a "Mitzvas Yishuv Haaretz" campaign with the same zeal and energy that they undertook his other Mitzva Campaigns, Israel would probably have by now another 300,000 Jews in it.

Again.  True, but so what?  They are no different in this regard than most if not all other haredim and haredi groups.   The criticism of not emphasizing the mitzvah of yishuv haaretz (for a whole host of reasons) can be leveled at them all, across the board.  But comparatively speaking, I would say Chabad today speaks more common sense in regard to issues of state of Israel politics etc than other haredi groups.  But to say they are "holding up geulah" ?   This is a grave accusation of fantastical mystical proportions.  Sweeping irrational terms in which you normally speak/ruminate here.   If you mean this in the sense that they are undermining the Jewish national mission by not encouraging aliyah enough, then Lakewood, monsey, kiryat yoel, and all these other places are surely holding it up even more by setting such deep roots into non Jewish society.   Draw a parallel with 770 if you like, but why single out Chabad.   It is a weakness and lack of vision in all haredi Judaism.

[Spectator]

But comparatively speaking, I would say Chabad today speaks more common sense in regard to issues of state of Israel politics etc than other haredi groups.  But to say they are "holding up geulah" ?   This is a grave accusation of fantastical mystical proportions.  Sweeping irrational terms in which you normally speak/ruminate here. 

The one who speaks so disrespectfully about Israeli Jews, wants the State of Israel to be destroyed - and misqoutes prof. Eidelberg and even twists the words of Rabbi Kahane to "prove" that they both advocated destruction of the State, no wonder that the same person accuses Chabad in holding up geulah.

[Spectator]

Although many average Chabadniks were somewhat sympathetic to R.Kahane, most Lubavitcher leaders of congregations labelled him "a mushuganner".

"mushuganner" is the misspelled Yiddish word for "crazy". You attribute Lubavicher leaders a very grave insult of Rabbi Kahane.  Source? I don't believe you. You approach is clear as day: DIVIDE AND CONQUER.

[galileerat]

Unfortunately I heard several top Chabad rabbis myself say this about R.Kahane.

This was when the Rebbe was alive, and Lubavitchers were loathe to give any rabbi of any other group or persuasion any kovod or kudos at all, apart from to the Rebbe.

Now that Chabad itself has had no leadership for 15 years, and has split in to squabbling factions, they are somewhat chastened, and most will give R.Kahane his due.

I heard that the Rebbe said about R.Kahane: "Kahane's Torah is correct - but it's not for now!" (c.f. the Halacha is today according to Hillel. But in the days of Moshiach it will be according to Shammai).

When BZK visited the Lubavitcher Rebbe in NY in 1991, he called him back and gave him a dollar saying "This is for the neshomoh of your father zecher tzaddik v'kodosh livracha".

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I heard that the Rebbe said about R.Kahane: "Kahane's Torah is correct - but it's not for now!" (c.f. the Halacha is today according to Hillel. But in the days of Moshiach it will be according to Shammai).

If he did say the part you quoted, I can't see what this has to do with Hillel and Shammai.   Where do you find even one evidence of Rabbi Kahane siding halachically with Shammai over Hillel other than the few cases where all poskim did actually adopt Shammai's ruling over Hillel's (a few exceptional cases)?   Again, this is you speaking in sweeping generalizations and mystical characterizations of people and situations that just do not fit reality.  If the L. Rebbe said the statement as you have it in quotes, it would seem to me the simplest explanation is the most likely one.  He agreed with the Rabbi but didn't believe his plans could currently work or at least were not currently feasible.  That's what it would mean for someone to say "that's correct, but not for now."  Had Rabbi Kahane gained more support and backing in Israel, this could easily change where the Rebbe might then say the ideas are feasible, and then it becomes a scenario where it is for now because it can be implemented.  Either way, even with the flights of fancy you apply to his statement, what the Rebbe said here is not a halachic statement or rendering.  He did not "pasul" Rav Kahane chas ve shalom!   Nor could anyone.  (Although many thought that they could and certainly tried)....

[galileerat]

If R.Kahane had not been banned in 1988 this could have happened, as Kach was set to get 10-12 seats.

And who was the lawyer behind the banning: none other than the verminous Ehud Olmert!

Instead what did we get in the 1988 election: the first showing of the "undescribably evil Shas party", to quote Yosef ben Meir!

Had Rabbi Kahane gained more support and backing in Israel, this could easily change where the Rebbe might then say the ideas are feasible

[wonga66]

If this bomb had blown up Chabad Pune, all Lubavitch operations in India would have immediately ceased and the shlichim fled for good.
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1149514.html

"The 2nd skin of EVERY Jew is fear!" (Anwar Sadat)

[Irish Zionist]

galileerat = wonga?

[AsheDina]

The ERAV RAV are the ones that DELAY the redemption.

[wonga66]

If Chabad Houses are now being singled out for attack again http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/48245/Indian+Minister:+Bomb+Attack+was+Intended+for+Chabad+House.html
Hashem is sending a message.

If Chabad would focus their considerable skills on Aliya and assisting Shifra Hoffman's Shuva & ZERO, much might be achieved, instead of extending the golus by making 100s of 1000s of druggy Israelis feel overly at ease in the Exile, everywhere from the jungles of Bolivia to the foothills of Katmandu, from the pot dens of Berkeley to the Haggis factories of Glasgow, from 'Fress & Belch' in Crown Heights, to the fleshpots of Sydney's Bondi Beach.

Although Chabad succeeds in putting Tefilllin on them, it does not Kahanify them, which is more important!

The Jew is only meant to be at ease in a 100% Jewish Eretz Yisrael: "In the lands of your enemies your feet will find no repose...." (Vayikra 26)

Chabad is NOT a Zionist organisation. Together with most other Orthodox leaders of that era, the Friedeker Rebbe was an opponent of (secular) Zionism & Aliya in the 30s.

[muman613]

Wonga you are a compete idiot and I question whether you are a Jew. To speak such Lashon Hara against the wonderful Chabad organization places you on the bottom of the ladder of Jewish people, In my eyes... What kind of a fool are you?

And you are wrong about Chabad in India... Even if they had been hit by this terrorist, Chabad would pick up the pieces and continue their wonderful work in far reaching places.

You, wonga, learn nothing from the Torah... To you it is a crown used for aggrandizing yourself. This makes you into an arrogant fool.

[wonga66]

Actually I am merely following Shifra Hoffman's criticizms of the generally wonderful Lubavitch Movement. (PS I did study in a Tomchei Temimim Chabad yeshivah & I follow most Chabad minhagim!)

[muman613]

Actually I am merely following Shifra Hoffman's criticizms of the otherwise wonderful Lubavitch Movement. (PS I did study in a Tomchei Temimim Chabad yeshivah!)

Wonga,

I am sorry for the harsh words I used... I saw your post in the Torah section and I realize that you are not completely against Chabad.

I am very connected with Chabad {I know personally 3 Chabad Rabbis} and I am defensive of them.

True, they are not as Zionistic as us Kahanists... I am trying to get the ones I contact to become more understanding of our position {the kahanists}. I bring up this topic with every Rabbi, to learn how they feel about Rabbi Kahane. But I cannot say a bad word for Chabad.....

PS: Where did you hear Ms Hoffman speak on this topic? Is it the current Tamar Yonah show on A7?

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

I like Chabad.  I attended my first service at Chabad just yesterday.  I had a great time.  I don't know if Orthodox Judiasm is "for me*", but I will go back a few times and see how it feels.  I liked not being one of the youngest people in the Shul, at 31 years of age.  The Oneg food was...  beyond all expectations.  It's a 90 minute walk to, and a 90 minute walk from...  which is about perfect for the 15 pounds I could stand to lose.  The Chabad Shul is 5 minutes away from where I take Krav Maga lessons, so I might stop in during the week and see more about Chabad on a one on one basis with the Rabbi in charge, who like everyone I met there, was very welcoming.

*I saw a bit about the "Nachman" sect of Chaddism and it slowly has creeped into my head as something I want to learn more about... they love to dance and sing and clap their hands to DJ music, but are opposed to drug taking.  Sounds like me!  I love to DJ and scratch, but I never cared for drugs, and I don't like drinking very much either, at least not regularly [I did have a cup of wine at Chabad though].  I love to rev up a crowd to a dancing frenzy though.

The service was all in Hebrew, but they have English translations so I know what is being said.  I'm in the process of teaching myself the "Pimsluer Method" of Hebrew so I progress a little each day... just done over half the lessons 100% accurate!  I think my Mom might let me borrow her "Rosetta Stone" Hebrew lessons when I am finished with what I have.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

galileerat = wonga?

Obviously.  He refuses to admit it for some reason, but it is very clear it is him, as was mifletzet.   We should all just move on.