Pre-WW2 Kingdom of Yugoslavia

[Spectator]

I heard Croats and Bosniaks asked to join the common state with the Serbs after the World War I.

Is it true?
Why did they need that?
Was it good for Serbs?

[sonja_yu]

I heard Croats and Bosniaks asked to join the common state with the Serbs after the World War I.

Is it true?
Why did they need that?
Was it good for Serbs?

There were no Bosniaks at that time.

The idea of a common state of Southern Slavs is an old idea, promoted by all.

There were a couple of national revival movements, among which was the Illyrian movement.

After WWI, Kingdom of Serbia enlarged its territories by being joined by Montenegro and what's today known as Vojvodina and north Slavonia (not Slovenia).
On the other hand, on the rest of Southern Slavonic territories previously possessed by Austro-Hungary, another short-living unrecognized state was created. It was called "The State of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes" (referring to Serbs who didn't live in Kingdom of Serbia).
That state short after joined Kingdom of Serbia and then Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes was created. All of that happened in 1918.

Kingdom SCS was supported by the West and they almost insisted for that to be created. The Serbs were seen as the main nation and the king got the title "Alexander the Unifier".
It was renamed to Yugoslavia after a couple of unrests in 1929.

[Spectator]

Why did the West insist then that the common state be created? It seems opposite to what they did in 1990-ies when they supported Yugoslavia's disintegration and creation of national states.

[sonja_yu]

Why did the West insist then that the common state be created? It seems opposite to what they did in 1990-ies when they supported Yugoslavia's disintegration and creation of national states.

Because all of this happened prior to Cold War, the World was divided in a different way. We were the allies with France, UK and USA. I can give you some books written by them at that time by them.
Keep in mind that, during the war, Russia had a Revolution and it gone into Communism, since then, our relations were somewhat cold, but we remained allies with France, UK and somewhat USA. Relations with Russia weren't bad, just cold, we still didn't follow their path.

Those "nation states" aren't nation states. The name "Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes" wasn't by accident, the only real major nations were those three. There were no Bosniaks, no Montenegrins, no FYRoM.
Bosnia and Montenegro have the history of being states, but not of being nations, it's just not the same.

One strong country on the Balkans was seen as a good idea and it was almost like awarding the Serbs after WWI.
Today, everyone (East or West) is following one way "more small, weaker countries - easier to control and dominate".

[Spectator]

Too bad France, UK and USA forgot who was their ally in both world wars.

BTW post-war Tito's Yugoslavia was considered a traitor by Soviet Union. They thought Yugoslavia is too independent and too pro-Western. There were even dissidents (persecuted, of course) in USSR who wanted that it follow Yugoslav model of communism. Compared to that of USSR, Yugoslav model seemed to them more moderate and democratic.

[sonja_yu]

Too bad France, UK and USA forgot who was their ally in both world wars.

BTW post-war Tito's Yugoslavia was considered a traitor by Soviet Union. They thought Yugoslavia is too independent and too pro-Western. There were even dissidents (persecuted, of course) in USSR who wanted that it follow Yugoslav model of communism. Compared to that of USSR, Yugoslav model seemed to them more moderate and democratic.

But it was still Communism and it was really a paradox to see American president to sit with one Communist president and enjoy local food.

Don't be surprised that Tito-made Yugoslavia was ruined by the West after the Cold War ended.
When you sit on two chairs, even when just one breaks, you'll fall from both.
Yugoslavia was the Bridge during the Cold War and when it ended, the bridge just collapsed.

[Nik_Srb]

croatia and slovenia became nations thanks to us,they joined so that they could brake up yugo later,serbia was offered a lot of territories after ww1,like half of present day "croatia"
and to be clear,croats are just catholicised serbs

[serbian army]

I was a very bad move by our naive king. You help a frozen snake to warm up and the snake will bite you.

[Serbian_Radical_Party]

First of all my compliments to Sonja’s intelligent answers!
We need more young Serbs who are informed about Serbian history.
Unfortunately our youth is being westernized today. With westernized I mean brainwashed. 

Why did the West insist then that the common state be created? It seems opposite to what they did in 1990-ies when they supported Yugoslavia's disintegration and creation of national states.

This is a good question and unfortunately many Serbs can not answer it!

WW1 escaladed because of certain purposes. They main reason behind WW1 was not directly connected to Serbia.  But WW1 was also used as an opportunity to eliminate the works of the Serbian rebellions from the 19th century who managed to reestablish the Serbian kingdom. During WW1 Serbs were exterminated by the Austro-Hungarian Empire, who build concentration camps against Serbs. During WW1 Serbia lost 40% of its population.

Nobody expected the scenario [Kolubarska bitka] when the Serbs managed to overpower the Austro-Hungarian army. The Serbs provided incredible results during WW1 and that’s why we have a Serbian state today, thanks to our heroes from WW1.  Otherwise we would be exterminated by Hungarians, Austrians, Germans and their allies during WW1.

If they can not exterminate you (physically) during the war, than they will find an other manner to solve the problem with you! That’s why they suggested and forced the naïve Serbian delegation to create a common state with Croats and Slovenians, who carried out atrocities against Serbs from 1914 to 1918. The excuse of the naïve Serbian delegation was that every kingdom wants to enlarge its territory. Royal Yugoslavia was a disaster!
Within royal Yugoslavia Croatia and Bosnia were created! During this period the extreme naïve Serbian intellectuals allowed Croatians to declared Serbian language as Serbo-Croatian language! Because of this naïve policy Croatia is today using Serbian language as the official language of Republic of Croatia. Also Serbian territory was annexed to Croatia during that period.  The Serbian delegation allowed this because they naively believed that Royal Yugoslavia was unbreakable!

During R. Yugoslavia, the Yugoslavian authorities agreed a concordat  with the Vatican, who tried to exterminate Serbs during WW1. This leaded into the increase of Vatican’s influence in the Yugoslavian/ Serbian society. The Catholic Church gained almost the same status as the Serbian Orthodox Church.

[Spectator]

Thank you SPR for the informative answer.

During WW1 Serbs were exterminated by the Austro-Hungarian Empire, who build concentration camps against Serbs.

That is terrible. I did not know that.

If they can not exterminate you (physically) during the war, than they will find an other manner to solve the problem with you!

But why the Germans and their allies were so eager to get rid of Serbs, even after the war?

I can understand they were angry for the assasination of Archduke Ferdinand by Gavrilo Princip (that was the official cause of the war) but it is certainly not the reason to destroy the whole Serbian nation. It is more like an excuse. Also, if you say they hated Serbs because they are Orthodox Christians, Bulgarians are also Orthodox Christians and they were allies of Germany in that war.

[Serbian_Radical_Party]

Thank you SPR for the informative answer.

Thank you for your appreciation and interest.

But why the Germans and their allies were so eager to get rid of Serbs, even after the war?

Not only Germans wanted that but whole Europe. They did not succeed during WW1 so they tried to accomplished it again during (1941-1945) and (1991-1999)...
They hated flagrant Serbia since the 19th century when Serbs banned Turkish colonizers from Balkan. They were not happy with the reestablishment of Serbia in 1815.

I can understand they were angry for the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand by Gavrilo Princip (that was the official cause of the war) but it is certainly not the reason to destroy the whole Serbian nation. It is more like an excuse. Also, if you say they hated Serbs because they are Orthodox Christians, Bulgarians are also Orthodox Christians and they were allies of Germany in that war.

The assassination of their Emperor was not a coincidence. They knew well that he could be assassinated if he demonstrated force in Serbian territories.
They needed a occasion to start WW1, so they created this scenario.

Also, if you say they hated Serbs because they are Orthodox Christians, Bulgarians are also Orthodox Christians and they were allies of Germany in that war.

They did not behave Orthodox?
Well true Orthodox countries will not enter into a war against Russia.
They hate Serbia, because Serbia represents Russia on the Balkans.
Serbs and Russian consider their selves as  one nation.

[Serbian_Radical_Party]

That is terrible. I did not know that.

Serb women executed by Austro-Hungarian authorities..

[Spectator]

They hate Serbia, because Serbia represents Russia on the Balkans.

Can you elaborate on this? How can one country represent another?

Serbs and Russian consider their selves as one nation.

I know many Russians but I never heard them say that. But Russians definitely support Serbs and view them as Orthodox brothers.

Nation is defined not only by religion but also language, common history etc.

Even Ukrainians and Belarussians  don't view themsleves as one nation with Russians, and they are definitely closer to Russians than Serbs are.

[Serbian_Radical_Party]

Can you elaborate on this? How can one country represent another?

Its simple my friend.
We Serbs are the pro-Russian nation of the Balkans! There is no other pro-Russian nation located on the Balkans besides us, Serbs.
In our history we Serbs are always very pro-Russian oriented. The history can confirm this.

I know many Russians but I never heard them say that. But Russians definitely support Serbs and view them as Orthodox brothers.

Nation is defined not only by religion but also language, common history etc.

Even Ukrainians and Belarussians  don't view themsleves as one nation with Russians, and they are definitely closer to Russians than Serbs are.

We Serbs are small Russians. Thats why we are hated by the same powers who intent to conquerer Russia. We are the Russians of the Balkans.
You can not find two nations who have more in common with each other, like Serbs and Russian. We are not just allies, it goes deeper.
We speak alomost the same language, we are both Orthodox and we both are the protectors of Orthodoxy.

[Spectator]

Well, it's between you Serbs and Russians. If both your peoples have mutual affinity, want to have a common state or strong alliance, nothing can stop you 

[Serbian_Radical_Party]

Well, it's between you Serbs and Russians. If both your peoples have mutual affinity, want to have a common state or strong alliance, nothing can stop you 

Well If I see a Russian its just like as seeing one of my own...
We have really the same mentality. We prefer same kind of music, sport and way of life...

You can join the brotherhood as well   

[Spectator]

Well, it's between you Serbs and Russians. If both your peoples have mutual affinity, want to have a common state or strong alliance, nothing can stop you 

Well If I see a Russian its just like as seeing one of my own...
We have really the same mentality. We prefer same kind of music, sport and way of life...

You can join the brotherhood as well   

Thanks mate

We the Jews have our own way to serve G-d, as G-d Himself declared in His Torah. We are not supposed to join any unions. But we are always want to have friendly relations with any country that does not threaten us.

BTW Israel and Russia have visa-free travel agreement. Recently the similar agreement was signed between Israel and Serbia.

[sonja_yu]

Well, it's between you Serbs and Russians. If both your peoples have mutual affinity, want to have a common state or strong alliance, nothing can stop you 

A COMMON STATE?!

[Spectator]

Well, it's between you Serbs and Russians. If both your peoples have mutual affinity, want to have a common state or strong alliance, nothing can stop you 

A COMMON STATE?!

SPR says Russians and Serbs consider themselves one nation. If it is true, why couldn't they have a common state? But it was not the point of my post, actually I was a bit surprised by this view. My point was that only Russians and Serbs can define their relationship and all the other people can only accept it, not to question it.

[Serbian_Radical_Party]

Well, it's between you Serbs and Russians. If both your peoples have mutual affinity, want to have a common state or strong alliance, nothing can stop you 

To bad that our government is Americanized!

[voo-yo]

Well, it's between you Serbs and Russians. If both your peoples have mutual affinity, want to have a common state or strong alliance, nothing can stop you 

A COMMON STATE?!

SPR says Russians and Serbs consider themselves one nation. If it is true, why couldn't they have a common state? But it was not the point of my post, actually I was a bit surprised by this view. My point was that only Russians and Serbs can define their relationship and all the other people can only accept it, not to question it.

You still take him seriously?

[Spectator]

Well, it's between you Serbs and Russians. If both your peoples have mutual affinity, want to have a common state or strong alliance, nothing can stop you 

A COMMON STATE?!

SPR says Russians and Serbs consider themselves one nation. If it is true, why couldn't they have a common state? But it was not the point of my post, actually I was a bit surprised by this view. My point was that only Russians and Serbs can define their relationship and all the other people can only accept it, not to question it.

You still take him seriously?

I don't agree with him on some very important issues but as long as he does not try to deny Jewish sovereignity over Israel or defend Jew haters, I don't have problems with him. He seems to be an intelligent man and know a lot about Serbia in general and Krajina in particular, let him talk about it.

If you don't agree with him you can debate and disprove his views. Vujo, I hope you don't feel betrayed when sometimes I don't join you when you debate him.. But I am very grateful to you for your support of Israel. You are true friend, may G-d bless you.

As for his view on Serbian-Russian relations, he is not the only one who thinks that way. I saw many such Serbs on youtube and on srpskinacionalisti.com forum who say similar things. I personally don't have any thing for or against it, I'm just curious about it. I will gladly hear your opinion too.

[Serbian_Radical_Party]

I don't agree with him on some very important issues

Like what friend 
What very important issues 

[voo-yo]

Well, it's between you Serbs and Russians. If both your peoples have mutual affinity, want to have a common state or strong alliance, nothing can stop you 

A COMMON STATE?!

SPR says Russians and Serbs consider themselves one nation. If it is true, why couldn't they have a common state? But it was not the point of my post, actually I was a bit surprised by this view. My point was that only Russians and Serbs can define their relationship and all the other people can only accept it, not to question it.

You still take him seriously?

I don't agree with him on some very important issues but as long as he does not try to deny Jewish sovereignity over Israel or defend Jew haters, I don't have problems with him. He seems to be an intelligent man and know a lot about Serbia in general and Krajina in particular, let him talk about it.

If you don't agree with him you can debate and disprove his views. Vujo, I hope you don't feel betrayed when sometimes I don't join you when you debate him.. But I am very grateful to you for your support of Israel. You are true friend, may G-d bless you.

As for his view on Serbian-Russian relations, he is not the only one who thinks that way. I saw many such Serbs on youtube and on srpskinacionalisti.com forum who say similar things. I personally don't have any thing for or against it, I'm just curious about it. I will gladly hear your opinion too.

Of course I don't feel betrayed, I can understand your motives. I'm not sure you'll achieve anything with him, but ok.
Majority of Serbs view Russia as our biggest hope, our protector, but this guy is delusional. Such is the case with all people without real faith, so they search an earthly G-d, in our case - Russia, in Israel's case - America.
Personally, I've never heard a Serb saying "I'm a little Russian". I don't know their taste in music, food, sports... Our biggest contact with Russians is during the summer on Montenegro coast. I don't want to be assimilated by Russians or anyone else, and that's how Serbian people feel too. Except Seselj, of course.

[Spectator]

I don't agree with him on some very important issues

Like what friend 

Do you remember when I asked you if Israel has the right to exist as Jewish state? I didn't "question" you as you told then, I asked that because you started defending Saddam Hussein who wanted to destroy the Jewish state all his life, so may be you share his opinion on this issue too. And that was your answer:

To answer your question, well Israel exists and that is a fact. I have no problems with the existence of a Jewish state in the Middle East.
This does not mean that I authomatically unconditionally support Israel in every way.

This kind of answer says much. At first, I can clearly see it is at least not an easy question to you. Secondly, I didn't ask if you unconditioanlly support Israel. It is clear that nobody is obliged to support everything Israel does. The question was very basic and simple: right of the Jewish state to exist, not about borders, spheres of influence, etc.

Lastly, according to geography and English grammar, "I have no problems with the existence of a Jewish state in the Middle East" may as well mean "in the Middle East somewhere else than in Israel aka Holy Land". If this is the case, it is unacceptable. The Jews don't want to have a state outside Israel. We are not interested in foreign lands. We want to have the state in the land that G-d gave to our forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and where we lived for more than 3000 years.

But I appreciate your honesty. If you have any doubts on this issue, you can post a thread and ask questions. I don't think you'll be banned for asking questons. The Jews don't ban people who want to find out the truth and ask polite questions.