Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Shalom
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Mo2388 on August 30, 2009, 09:13:21 AM ---
--- Quote from: Dan ben Noah on August 29, 2009, 09:48:51 PM ---I need an orthodox Jew to answer: Is a non-Jew allowed to offer a Jew a ride in his car on the Sabbath? I am permitted to drive to shul since I am a Noahide, but I have seen Jews walking before in the summer heat with black hats and suits on, and I was just wondering if it would be proper for me to offer them a ride. I've turned lights on for them before that they forgot to turn on before Shabbat, so I thought maybe I could do this.
--- End quote ---
NO! I appreciate the thought though.
--- End quote ---
Based on what though? Why would it be forbidden? I encourage people to refrain from stating a psak if they do not really know the halacha behind it... I have tried to do that myself here. I haven't seen anyone give a compelling answer either way. We should find a rav to ask about it.
muman613:
Shalom,
I agree that anything which we discuss here is only our opinions. I would not presume anyone here is capable of fully explaining or understanding the issues involved.
That doesn't mean I will not offer my opinion on this matter. I am one who does support the concept of the Shabbat Goy, and I do employ one for occasional emergencies in my house. But even so I do not think that allowing non-Jews to give rides to a Jew on Shabbat is a good thing to encourage.
There are two reasons I have this opinion:
1) Torah commands that we should make Shabbat a day of complete rest in our homes, for ourselves, for our families, for our servants, and for our animals.
2) Rabbis have instituted fences around Torah law so that we should not come to violating any laws.
I apply these two concepts in the following ways:
If a non-Jew gives a ride to a Jew and he does this regularly it can be said that these two are like family. A Jew should not allow his friend to drive on Shabbat, and if his friend is a non-Jew, as in this case, he can be considered a servant of the Jew. Even servants should cease creative activity {melachas} on Shabbat.
If a Jew or a non-Jew observes a religious looking Jew being driven on Shabbat it may come to be believed that the driver was also Jewish and therefore a chillul Hashem. Also it may be believed that it is not a violation for a Jew to drive on Shabbat. I think this is a parallel to the idea of not eating chicken and cheese together because an observer may conclude that it was really meat and cheese...
I know these ideas are not presented in the most understandable way but because of these two ideas I would conclude that the Rabbis would find that this is not permissible.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
Let me put it this way. Hypothetically speaking. The nonJew is going to the shul himself on shabbath because he's a noahide trying to connect and likes the davening, or he's studying to become a ger. He sees a Jew suffering in the heat with a long walk (or it's raining), so since he is ALREADY driving himself back from shul anyway, since he is a nonJew and is forbidden to keep shabbath, he can offer this nice Jew a ride to hop in since regardless of what the Jew does, this nonJew is going to show up there in his car, then drive back afterwards to the same place. Whether the Jew comes along or not. And never once does the Jew ask to be picked up or arrange for this, the nonJew just offers out of the goodness of his heart. This to me sounds exactly like what Dan Ben Noah was describing. I have trouble seeing how this in anyway violates halacha or any fence. (muman, I include "rabbinical fences" when I say 'halacha' -that should go without saying). Nor has anyone given any reason why it would. Maybe it does. But I can't see why. My knowledge here is limited. But just saying philosophical treatises about why jews have to follow the rabbis and such, really does not address the issue. Nobody is saying Jews don't have to follow the rabbis or halacha in general.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on August 30, 2009, 04:05:37 PM ---
If a non-Jew gives a ride to a Jew and he does this regularly it can be said that these two are like family.
--- End quote ---
Where do you get that from? People who ride in cars together are now de facto family members? I've never heard of such a thing. I think that's a big stretch.
--- Quote --- A Jew should not allow his friend to drive on Shabbat,
--- End quote ---
Why? Non Jewish friends are allowed to do whatever they want on Shabbath (in terms of melacha).
--- Quote --- and if his friend is a non-Jew, as in this case, he can be considered a servant of the Jew. Even servants should cease creative activity {melachas} on Shabbat.
--- End quote ---
Perhaps you mean Jewish servants? Because non Jews are forbidden to keep Shabbath.
Anyway, I don't see how a friend suddenly became a "servant" ? It's not like the guy is ordering him, pick me up from shul every friday. The non Jew just happens to be there and offers a ride.
But it's kind of funny how you went from 'family' to 'friend' to 'servant'... It seems like you just want to define the non Jewish guy as anything that enables you to say it's forbidden.
--- Quote ---If a Jew or a non-Jew observes a religious looking Jew being driven on Shabbat it may come to be believed that the driver was also Jewish and therefore a chillul Hashem.
--- End quote ---
Here you may be right, I'm not sure how this plays into it. This may or may not be a key issue involved.
isrhammer:
--- Quote from: Dan ben Noah on August 29, 2009, 09:48:51 PM ---I need an orthodox Jew to answer: Is a non-Jew allowed to offer a Jew a ride in his car on the Sabbath? I am permitted to drive to shul since I am a Noahide, but I have seen Jews walking before in the summer heat with black hats and suits on, and I was just wondering if it would be proper for me to offer them a ride. I've turned lights on for them before that they forgot to turn on before Shabbat, so I thought maybe I could do this.
--- End quote ---
You are a good man!
thank you for your kindness
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