What is appropriate levels of violence toward our enemy

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

You need to get rid of secularism for this to happen.

[The One and Only Mo]

Oh Mumanala, We had an argument like this when I first joined. I said all evil Arabs who want to kill Jews should be killed. Most of the people agreed with me, a few agreed with you. I see where you're coming from, obviously, however, I have friends in the tzahal, and friends who were in the tzahal, and I wouldn't want them getting killed protecting some random Arab kids. With all that we know about terrorists, it's ridiculous to value one of their lives over the lives of our Jewish brothers and sisters. I have family and friends in Eretz Hakadosh, and I'd rather terrorists get killed before they have a chance to do any damage. Sorry if I care about Jews more than Arabs.

[briann]

What level of action or violence is appropriate against Islam???  The same level that was appropriate against the Nazis and Naziism.  Not to kill all that have been brainwashed by it, but to do all we can to destroy the institutions and people that spread the hate.  It has to be a process of de-Islamification.  This is a fight of good against evil, not one religion against another.

The probelm with your logic is that Islam is a way of life, nazism wasn't - islam have roots in human psyche of 1,300 years, nazism had only 12 years! Whereas enlightened German people where able relatively easy and, I must say, with a sense of relief to shrug off their nazi nightmare, primitive islamic savages will not be able to do so with their islamic death cult. How can you make such a superficial comparison!? Bones is 100% right - these are amalekites and should all be defeated in spirit and in the body. We should help their remnants to transform and leave their death cult.

What?  You dont know your history!

Naziism WAS a way of life for all youth in Germany from 33-45. (Like Islam is today).  Thats the way Hitler had always wanted it.  As soon as you were old enough to understand the spoken word, you were put it Nazi youth leagues, Hitler Youth, Hitler female youth, etc.  German teachers would complain that so much of a child's time was spent learning National Socialism, that children were neglecting more crucial core academics.  (Sounds familar?).  Everything was mandatory, 8-5pm, 12 months out of the year, and kids would spend more time being brainwashed, then they would being at their own home.

Part of how he and Goebells would erase any remnant of  Judeo-Christianity from Germany, was to not even give children the chance to worship aynthing other than Mein Kampf. This is what made many God-fearing parents in Germany very fearful, as their children were starting to place Hitler above God.  This is why Anti-Nazification was so crucial for the youth.  Because they were brainwashed beyond recognition.

[cjd]

What level of action or violence is appropriate against Islam???  The same level that was appropriate against the Nazis and Naziism.  Not to kill all that have been brainwashed by it, but to do all we can to destroy the institutions and people that spread the hate.  It has to be a process of de-Islamification.  This is a fight of good against evil, not one religion against another.

The probelm with your logic is that Islam is a way of life, nazism wasn't - islam have roots in human psyche of 1,300 years, nazism had only 12 years! Whereas enlightened German people where able relatively easy and, I must say, with a sense of relief to shrug off their nazi nightmare, primitive islamic savages will not be able to do so with their islamic death cult. How can you make such a superficial comparison!? Bones is 100% right - these are amalekites and should all be defeated in spirit and in the body. We should help their remnants to transform and leave their death cult.

What?  You dont know your history!

Naziism WAS a way of life for all youth in Germany from 33-45. (Like Islam is today).  Thats the way Hitler had always wanted it.  As soon as you were old enough to understand the spoken word, you were put it Nazi youth leagues, Hitler Youth, Hitler female youth, etc.  German teachers would complain that so much of a child's time was spent learning National Socialism, that children were neglecting more crucial core academics.  (Sounds familar?).  Everything was mandatory, 8-5pm, 12 months out of the year, and kids would spend more time being brainwashed, then they would being at their own home.

Part of how he and Goebells would erase any remnant of  Judeo-Christianity from Germany, was to not even give children the chance to worship aynthing other than Mein Kampf. This is what made many G-d-fearing parents in Germany very fearful, as their children were starting to place Hitler above G-d.  This is why Anti-Nazification was so crucial for the youth.  Because they were brainwashed beyond recognition.

What you say is very true ..... Some years ago I read the Goebells diary and he was very precise in documenting his programs for indoctrinating the people as minister of information. I have a neighbor who was in the Hitler Youth and even to this day you can tell she is not quite right.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

What?  You dont know your history!

Naziism WAS a way of life for all youth in Germany from 33-45. (Like Islam is today).  Thats the way Hitler had always wanted it.  As soon as you were old enough to understand the spoken word, you were put it Nazi youth leagues, Hitler Youth, Hitler female youth, etc.  German teachers would complain that so much of a child's time was spent learning National Socialism, that children were neglecting more crucial core academics.  (Sounds familar?).  Everything was mandatory, 8-5pm, 12 months out of the year, and kids would spend more time being brainwashed, then they would being at their own home.

Part of how he and Goebells would erase any remnant of  Judeo-Christianity from Germany, was to not even give children the chance to worship aynthing other than Mein Kampf. This is what made many G-d-fearing parents in Germany very fearful, as their children were starting to place Hitler above G-d.  This is why Anti-Nazification was so crucial for the youth.  Because they were brainwashed beyond recognition.

I disagree that Nazism was as pervasive and complete as Islam.

Yes, all of the above is true--that National Socialists executed a very methodical and thorough modern brainwashing program. Nobody doubts that it was effective. Still, at its core Nazism was an evil secular ideology like Bolshevism. It was based in postmodern Nietschean German philosophy, not any one religion (well, Odinism to some extent, but the majority of the German people weren't devout Odinists). The term "anti-Semitism" in fact was coined to differentiate modern, secular Jew-hatred from the earlier theological Jew-hatred that so-called Christianity, from the likes of Luther, had promoted.

Since Nazism was based in secularism and relatively few Germans were devoutly religious, it did not have the same level of soul-gripping power that Islam does. When the Allies finally crushed Germany into the ground, the German civilians and remaining soldiers did not persist in a messianic fantasy or resort to mass martyrdom for a lost cause. They got the hint when Allied tanks rolled into Berlin that the fight was over and that they had no choice but pretend to be civilized human beings. Their hearts may not have changed but they stopped being active Nazis.

We all know that Muslims react substantially differently in these circumstances, because they believe Allah is on their side and that they are unstoppable.

[briann]

What?  You dont know your history!

Naziism WAS a way of life for all youth in Germany from 33-45. (Like Islam is today).  Thats the way Hitler had always wanted it.  As soon as you were old enough to understand the spoken word, you were put it Nazi youth leagues, Hitler Youth, Hitler female youth, etc.  German teachers would complain that so much of a child's time was spent learning National Socialism, that children were neglecting more crucial core academics.  (Sounds familar?).  Everything was mandatory, 8-5pm, 12 months out of the year, and kids would spend more time being brainwashed, then they would being at their own home.

Part of how he and Goebells would erase any remnant of  Judeo-Christianity from Germany, was to not even give children the chance to worship aynthing other than Mein Kampf. This is what made many G-d-fearing parents in Germany very fearful, as their children were starting to place Hitler above G-d.  This is why Anti-Nazification was so crucial for the youth.  Because they were brainwashed beyond recognition.

I disagree that Nazism was as pervasive and complete as Islam.

Yes, all of the above is true--that National Socialists executed a very methodical and thorough modern brainwashing program. Nobody doubts that it was effective. Still, at its core Nazism was an evil secular ideology like Bolshevism. It was based in postmodern Nietschean German philosophy, not any one religion (well, Odinism to some extent, but the majority of the German people weren't devout Odinists). The term "anti-Semitism" in fact was coined to differentiate modern, secular Jew-hatred from the earlier theological Jew-hatred that so-called Christianity, from the likes of Luther, had promoted.

Since Nazism was based in secularism and relatively few Germans were devoutly religious, it did not have the same level of soul-gripping power that Islam does. When the Allies finally crushed Germany into the ground, the German civilians and remaining soldiers did not persist in a messianic fantasy or resort to mass martyrdom for a lost cause. They got the hint when Allied tanks rolled into Berlin that the fight was over and that they had no choice but pretend to be civilized human beings. Their hearts may not have changed but they stopped being active Nazis.

We all know that Muslims react substantially differently in these circumstances, because they believe Allah is on their side and that they are unstoppable.

That is not true about it being secular.  It was Pagan and obssesed with mysticism at its core, NOT secular.  Before 1932, nearly all the high members of the Nazi party were pagans.  Naziism was completely intertwined with mysticism and tuetonic pagan gods, etc. 

Himler was the craziest.  He was certain that he could revive a mythical race with super god-like powers. He DID have expeditions all across the globe to look for mythical Teutonic god-like race with special powers, E.S.P., etc. (Indiana Jones was sorta right).  In many ways it is like the Nation of Islam, obsessed with race and hate, but ALSO, using mysticism and superstition to justify it.

It was of course, all nonsence, and guess what.... So is ISLAM!!!!!

[The One and Only Mo]

What?  You dont know your history!

Naziism WAS a way of life for all youth in Germany from 33-45. (Like Islam is today).  Thats the way Hitler had always wanted it.  As soon as you were old enough to understand the spoken word, you were put it Nazi youth leagues, Hitler Youth, Hitler female youth, etc.  German teachers would complain that so much of a child's time was spent learning National Socialism, that children were neglecting more crucial core academics.  (Sounds familar?).  Everything was mandatory, 8-5pm, 12 months out of the year, and kids would spend more time being brainwashed, then they would being at their own home.

Part of how he and Goebells would erase any remnant of  Judeo-Christianity from Germany, was to not even give children the chance to worship aynthing other than Mein Kampf. This is what made many G-d-fearing parents in Germany very fearful, as their children were starting to place Hitler above G-d.  This is why Anti-Nazification was so crucial for the youth.  Because they were brainwashed beyond recognition.

I disagree that Nazism was as pervasive and complete as Islam.

Yes, all of the above is true--that National Socialists executed a very methodical and thorough modern brainwashing program. Nobody doubts that it was effective. Still, at its core Nazism was an evil secular ideology like Bolshevism. It was based in postmodern Nietschean German philosophy, not any one religion (well, Odinism to some extent, but the majority of the German people weren't devout Odinists). The term "anti-Semitism" in fact was coined to differentiate modern, secular Jew-hatred from the earlier theological Jew-hatred that so-called Christianity, from the likes of Luther, had promoted.

Since Nazism was based in secularism and relatively few Germans were devoutly religious, it did not have the same level of soul-gripping power that Islam does. When the Allies finally crushed Germany into the ground, the German civilians and remaining soldiers did not persist in a messianic fantasy or resort to mass martyrdom for a lost cause. They got the hint when Allied tanks rolled into Berlin that the fight was over and that they had no choice but pretend to be civilized human beings. Their hearts may not have changed but they stopped being active Nazis.

We all know that Muslims react substantially differently in these circumstances, because they believe Allah is on their side and that they are unstoppable.

That is not true about it being secular.  It was Pagan and obssesed with mysticism at its core, NOT secular.  Before 1932, nearly all the high members of the Nazi party were pagans.  Naziism was completely intertwined with mysticism and tuetonic pagan gods, etc. 

Himler was the craziest.  He was certain that he could revive a mythical race with super G-d-like powers. He DID have expeditions all across the globe to look for mythical Teutonic G-d-like race with special powers, E.S.P., etc. (Indiana Jones was sorta right).  In many ways it is like the Nation of Islam, obsessed with race and hate, but ALSO, using mysticism and superstition to justify it.

It was of course, all nonsence, and guess what.... So is ISLAM!!!!!

Yeah, and it's this "nonsense" that is threatening to destroy us all.

[Debbie Shafer]

The difference in Islam, (The Subhumans)  and Christians and Jews is sanity.  Some muslims are totally evil, and are drawn in by Satan.  They will never give any of us a chance to survive, make no mistake about it.  Be prepared to defend yourselves and your families.  There is no compassion or love for Israel or the West in this race.  You do what you have to do to survive!

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

That is not true about it being secular.  It was Pagan and obssesed with mysticism at its core, NOT secular.  Before 1932, nearly all the high members of the Nazi party were pagans.  Naziism was completely intertwined with mysticism and tuetonic pagan gods, etc. 

Himler was the craziest.  He was certain that he could revive a mythical race with super G-d-like powers. He DID have expeditions all across the globe to look for mythical Teutonic G-d-like race with special powers, E.S.P., etc. (Indiana Jones was sorta right).  In many ways it is like the Nation of Islam, obsessed with race and hate, but ALSO, using mysticism and superstition to justify it.

It was of course, all nonsence, and guess what.... So is ISLAM!!!!!

You are correct but average Germans were not devoted Odinists. Some flirted with it but by and large it was a phenomenon of the NSDAP elites. Nazism had to have some cross-board appeal (i.e. quasi-Christian theological arguments and, especially, plenty of quasi-scientific secular arguments about the Jewish "race"). There was no singular, unified Nazi religion across the Reich. There were Nazi devout Lutherans, Nazi secular Lutherans, Nazi devout Catholics, Nazi secular Catholics, Nazi atheists/agnostics, and Nazi pagans. It was integrated to different religious traditions in varying degrees and various levels of success. The overwhelming majority of the German public ate it up, of course, but more than anything else it was all about German nationalism and "scientific" secular anti-Semitism, in other words, eugenicism.

[muman613]

The difference in Islam, (The Subhumans)  and Christians and Jews is sanity.  Some muslims are totally evil, and are drawn in by Satan.  They will never give any of us a chance to survive, make no mistake about it.  Be prepared to defend yourselves and your families.  There is no compassion or love for Israel or the West in this race.  You do what you have to do to survive!

This is not surprising... Satan is sent to test us. The greater the Soul, the greater the test. We should take a little comfort in knowing that Satan cannot test us more than we are capable of surviving. We need to rise up, as we learn in our repentence, to the challenge which Satan has placed before us. The Jewish people operate on many levels, one such level is the level individual versus national challenges. We are being challenged as a nation... I hope that the Rabbis in the conservative and Orthodox shuls out there will give strength to Israel. The Rabbis I have watched most recently have certainly been exhibiting much more Zionism and support for Aliyah to Israel.

As we listen to the call of the Shofar in a little over a week from now {10 more days!} let us remember why we are in shul. We are there to give praise to the Awesome, Great, and Strong King {HA MELECH!}. We praise him and we sing to him and we regret not loving him more during the year. Rosh Hashanna is a time for Simcha {Joy} and yet we are also being judged by the Master of the Universe, the Holy One Blessed is he! We are happy to be judged. We should be happy that the King has come out to the field to be with us.

It is a wonderful balancing act that we try to perform. Trepidation, fear, and anxiety fill the week. We try to ask forgiveness from those who we have done wrong to. We get white clothes, or some a Kittel,  so that we can be wrapped in white, the color of purity, as we are going before the King. There are so many wonderful things we do as we prepare for this period... There is the famous minhag of eating Apples and Honey as a sign for a good and sweet year. There are signs such as eating the head of the fish, and not the tail... Eating pommegranets because they are rumoured to have 613 seeds.



We blow the Shofar on Rosh Hashanna to drive away the Satan. According to Talmudic sources, the Satan is confused for a moment when the Shofar is blown on the day of Rosh Hashana... This year we will wait till Sunday {Rosh Hashanna starts on Friday night through Saturday this year} to hear the Shofar... But when we hear those 100 blasts of the Shofar we should tremble a bit, we should feel the strength enter our souls, we should grow inside...

So in conclusion... I would like to say that while I agree that Islam is a manifestation of Satan it is also true that Satan is in my home. Satan is everywhere where the challenge exists... So the answer to defeating Satan is the same. We work on ourselves, to become better people, and then we will be able to have more control over the Satan. We will be able to see the enemy for who it is. Right now the majority of Jews and Christians have their eyes blinded by the allure of the Western physicality. Some are blinded by false ideologies invented by men during the early years of the church... Some are blinded by invented religions such as reform 'judaism'.

Let us strengthen ourselves, our families, our extended families, our neighborhoods, and eventually we will strengthen our country.

May all JTFers read my words and make a complete teshuva so that we can celebrate in Jerusalem with Moshiach!

Tricks of the Satan : http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/News.aspx/1375

http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/parsha/eylevine/5764roshhashanah.htm


Sorry for continuing this post, I hope someone finds it interesting...

http://www.ou.org/shabbat_shalom/article/mm_accuser1

A theme which we encounter repeatedly in the mitzva of Shofar is "confusing the accuser" (Satan). For instance:

1. The gemara tells us that we blow the shofar on Rosh HaShana both sitting and standing "in order to confuse the accuser" (Rosh HaShana 16b).

2. In the siddur of Rav Amram Gaon and in Machzor Vitry, this is given as one reason for the wide variety of different shofar calls we sound on the holiday.

3. The Tur (OC 581) gives it as one reason for blowing the shofar every day in Elul;

4. While the Maharil gives it as a reason why we stop sounding the shofar on the last day before Rosh HaShana.

Let us study the simple meaning and some deeper insights of this concept.

The word satan in the Bible seems to mean merely "opponent". For instance, the angel who obstructs Bilaam's progress is described as a satan (Bamidbar 22:22), and the captains of the Philistines are afraid that if David fights by their side he will not be an ally but rather a satan, an opponent (Shmuel I 29:4).

But many times we find it has a more specific meaning: an angel who is specially designated by God to act as a prosecuting attorney when He judges men (Zekharya 3:2, Iyov 1,2). Although God already knows all of our thoughts and actions, Divine judgment is described to us in Scripture as following equitable and transparent procedures, with advocates making claims and counterclaims, in order to educate us that this judgment it is not arbitrary but rather fair and balanced.

In the Talmud, we find an additional dimension: Satan is sometimes presented not merely as an accuser, but also as a tempter, someone who confronts our righteousness with trials in order to test us.

While we certainly try to avoid Satan and his judgment and adhere stead- fastly to the mitzvot, the Gemara also teaches us that we have to respect his mission which is after all a necessary part of the administration of justice in the world. When the sage Palemo cursed Satan, Satan came to embarrass him and then rebuked him for his curses. It's enough to ask Hashem to keep Satan far away; it's not necessary to curse him (Kidushin 81b).

Let's return to confusing Satan by blowing the shofar. The Ran brings an explanation related to the idea of Satan as tempter, identified with "the evil urge": The stirring sound of the shofar instills awe in the listeners and subdues their urges and temptations.

But most commentators seem to associate "confusing Satan" with the idea of Satan as accuser. For example, Rashi writes that sounding the shofar when the congregation is both sitting and standing impresses him with our devotion to the mitzvot; the result is that he is timid in his accusations. Tosafot explains that when he hears the persistence of the shofar (because it is blown so often) he will think that he is hearing the shofar of the final Redemption, when his job comes to an end (because righteousness will reign) (Rashi, Tosafot and Ran on Rosh HaShana 17b).

The Maharil (a Rishon who wrote a compendium of customs) gives a slightly different explanation: The shofar announces the day of judgment, which enables Satan to know when he is summoned to "court" to present his case against men. But when the shofar is blown so many times, he may become confused and "miss his court date". Of course Satan is a loyal public servant and will keep coming back each time the shofar is blown in Elul, but then the shofar is omitted on Rosh HaShana eve and he may conclude that the case is over and he can just pack up.

Satan has shown himself to be a remarkably devoted and resourceful functionary, and it is probably not so easy to fool him. But we also must remember that his function is not to cause us suffering, but rather to create accountability in the world in order to motivate us to righteousness.

When we hear the shofar in Elul, it's not only Satan who remembers that judgment day is approaching; we ourselves are reminded. We allow ourselves to be fooled into seeing the Prosecutor right away; thus we subdue our urges (as the Ran states) and are stirred to repentance. When we hear the shofar blast numerous times and ways on Rosh HaShana, staying in shul hours beyond what we are accustomed yet without impatience, we are astounded at our own devotion to mitzvot; this truly silences the accuser. (As we find in Rashi.) When we reach Rosh HaShana in a state of perfect repentance, we may find that our righteousness is so complete that we don't win our case, we actually find it dismissed "for lack of public concern". After all, the purpose of the judgment itself is only to give an incentive for right conduct; when we find ourselves independently motivated to act rightly the trial is superfluous and the prosecutor can go home. (As we find in Tosafot and the Maharil.)

The various customs of blowing the shofar have the effect of "tricking" us into preparing for judgment well in advance; thus we find ourselves well prepared on the Days of Awe and the prosecution will be muted and confused.

Rabbi Asher Meir is the author of the book Meaning in Mitzvot, distributed by Feldheim. The book provides insights into the inner meaning of our daily practices, following the order of the 221 chapters of the Kitzur Shulchan Arukh.

[muman613]

I realize my post was completely off topic...

Sorry...

My opinion on-topic is that we need to rise up against our enemy and fight him on every front. If the arab israelis are not happy, then can be sent back to where they came from... I am all for that...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

It is very interesting that you cite the Gra's opinion on this, which is known to be the most extreme.  Not that this is an issue for me, as I am Jewish, but the Gra stated that Amalek is composed of EVERY Christian and Ishmaelite, and this is not an opinion I agree with, as it would mean that Amalek consists of billions of people, and also denies the existence of righteous Christians.

Where do you get this from?   Billions of people?   No righteous christians?   This is the Gra?   What Gra are you quoting here?   As far as I know, the Vilna Gaon said that any nation that makes war against Israel has taken on the identity of Amalek.   That would include the Nazis yemach shemam, and now today the Arab Fakestinians who openly declared war and committed acts of war time and time again.   Where do you get billions of people from that, and why would that include all the non Jews who never made war on us?

[Dr. Dan]

Excuse me!?!?! How can any member of Muslim Nazi Amalek be "innocent"? That is a self-hating statement.<<

This is where guys like you totally lose me.  Do you not think there are Arabs who don't care about politics, who would rather not just live quietly?  I know for a fact that such Arabs exist because I have a friend of that sort.  I don't know if this represents 5, 10 or 30% of the Arab world.  It is impossible to know since as long as the savages control that world people are afraid to speak out.  I don't have a problem telling them that they have to make a choice and that standing with the savages might get them killed by us but we need to do a better job of projecting strength so they are more afraid of us than they are of the savages.

So you favor total indiscriminate killing of Arabs, men women, and children?  Would you kill a newborn baby in the hospital?  Would you build death camps for them?  Have you really thought this through?

I would leave it at this, secular believer:

We have the right to kill those who are going to or planning to kill us.  You did spell that out on the initial post.

All other enemy NON-combatants who are living quietly in Israel...well, they should be asked to leave...and JTF's motto is to pay them to leave...not force them out violently.

There are some who want to do that..but JTF is a moderate organization..not a militant extremist one.

And if an Arab in Israel who wasn't Jewish wanted to stay, one of two things:  he is forced out...OR he is allowed to stay, but not as an equal citizen with voting rights etc...since ISrael is a JEwish state..there is only one state...and if the non Jewish Arab wanted rights to vote etc, then he can go to one of the arab countries to do that.

[Dr. Dan]

Best to say the following:  When there is a war, better NOT to put your own troops in danger when trying to avoid civilians of the enemy's side.  Right now, we are in a war. 

בס"ד
One after one.

I know we had an earlier thread where I was in the minority in not favoring the indiscriminate murder of Arabs such as in the cases of Baruch Goldstein and Ami Popper.  I considered it a good and spirited discussion.  However, now I would like to discuss cases where I feel we need much more force in defense of ourselves and our nation.

The case of Baruch Goldstein ZTVK"L HY"D was a self-defense action. The Arabs who were praying at this evil mosque were planning to capture a number of Jews from the so-called Ha'Rovah Ha'Yehudi of Hebro and maybe even murder them G-D forbid.
I find nothing morally wrong with mironic non-macro+civilian actions against Arabs and Muslims, after all, living them alive IS morally wrong. The thing is that such actions are not effective in the macro level.

If we know of a training camp where suicide bombers are being trained it should be attacked with air power.  Now just to be clear we know they have kids as young as 5 training in such places.  I don't mean to be callous but since they are heading to martyrdom, we can get them their wish (or their parents' wish) early.  In fact I would favor targeted assassinations of anyone who sends their children to such places.  If it discourages others from doing so and keeps these savages from breeding more martyrs so much the better.

That's actually more ignorance in Islam than a good plan. While Judaism (I believe you're Jewish?) sanctifies life, Islam in its basic sanctifies death (wether the Muslim is a Shi'ite, Sunni, Su'ffi, Mallucki, etc). Look at Afghanistan. The Soviet bombed the weck outta the "Mujahideen" training camps and that didn't really help, the war is global and according to the most famous and acceptable preach of Hassan Al-Bannah, in a situation/time when the Islamic State ("Caliphate") is not avaliable/occupied by "Kuffars", the "commandament of Jihad" goes to every single Muslim, whether a boy, a girl, a camel, a kid, an old lady.

If we know of a factory where Kassams or suicide belts are being manufactured they shoudl be hit by the air force and not in the middle of the night when nobody is there.  Hit them during peak activity.  If the word gets out that these are very dangerous places to work, so much the better.

That's actually what we were trying to do in Lebanon 3 years ago, it was NOT effective since we didn't define our enemy, and it's not terrorist but Islam as its own.
The solution for the Gazan problem is a Dresden bombing number 2, I wanna see the Muslim version of this:

CEO TOUT.

Parades for Hamas, suicide bombers, etc. should be viewed as target rich environments.  Maybe not bombing with killing entire crowds (although I would not rule that out), but certainly snipers where available to take out the leaders of such groups.

Not only those but also Muslim houses, buildings, prayers, mosques, well u got the point didn't u?

No brainer, if terrorists hide behind civilians they do not get a free pass as a result.  Again I do not favor killing innocent civilians and would to some degree bend over backwards to avoid killing them, but if they allow terrorists to hide among them they need to know they are taking on risk and that it is their responsibility to avoid the risk, not ours to risk our children's lives so they can do so.

That's one of the problems the Western people have. They think of how "moral" you can get by avoiding killing "innocent civillians" no matter how and what, even at the cost of your own soldier's murder. That's more pathetic than moral, the ones who comes to slay you (a Muslim/Pan-Arabist in this case), slay him first, ceo tout, just the internet version of the so-called "Just war".
The point is, Islam is our enemy not only from the military side of view. It's our cultural and demographic enemy either.

Stop persecuting Jews for self defense.  A major apology for Daniel Pinner who might have shot an Arab who was coming after him with aggression.  A medal for Avri Ran who lives without a fence or gate among hostile Arabs but beats the snot out of those who endanger him.  That is the model of how Jews should live in Eretz Yisrael, make their enemies afraid, not hide behind gates and guards.

It'd be much easier to do so when we wouldn't be "morally afraid" of doing such "immoral" things like slaying mini-terrorists, that is not a cowardly act but a brave act, a brave spiritual act, overcoming our Alteroist brainwash that we have 24/7 non-stop from our mass-media, those children are as bad as their fathers and mothers.

[Dr. Dan]

with this being said...it's easy to talk about killing....i'm sure it's much harder to do when faced with a choice to do it in real life.

Oh Mumanala, We had an argument like this when I first joined. I said all evil Arabs who want to kill Jews should be killed. Most of the people agreed with me, a few agreed with you. I see where you're coming from, obviously, however, I have friends in the tzahal, and friends who were in the tzahal, and I wouldn't want them getting killed protecting some random Arab kids. With all that we know about terrorists, it's ridiculous to value one of their lives over the lives of our Jewish brothers and sisters. I have family and friends in Eretz Hakadosh, and I'd rather terrorists get killed before they have a chance to do any damage. Sorry if I care about Jews more than Arabs.

[Dr. Dan]

I have to agree with CF to a certain extent that the current Islamics are worse than the Nazis of yesteryear...but with that being said, it also depends on the idealism of the world.  If Nazis of yesterday existed today with today's world's idealism, they wouldn't be able to murder 6 million Jews in death camps..the world today would be against that type of obvious genocide.

Why are the Islamics today worse than the Nazis of yesterday?  Because Nazis didn't breed like wildfire and have oil money...Islamics have grown to huge numbers basically by breeding and using Gd and religion as a means to hate and destroy righteousness.  The Nazis had no god.

and unfortunately before the Nazis 2000 years ago, it was those who used Christianity to kill innocent Jews...again the use of religion and Gd to kill righteousness.

Quite frankly, come to think of it, it's a moot point.  Every generation has Amalekites...nazis, islamics, fake christians, whatever, that want to annhiliate righteousness and the Jewish existence...and wherever it is, we have to fight it and kill before it kills us (Gd forbid) if we can.

What?  You dont know your history!

Naziism WAS a way of life for all youth in Germany from 33-45. (Like Islam is today).  Thats the way Hitler had always wanted it.  As soon as you were old enough to understand the spoken word, you were put it Nazi youth leagues, Hitler Youth, Hitler female youth, etc.  German teachers would complain that so much of a child's time was spent learning National Socialism, that children were neglecting more crucial core academics.  (Sounds familar?).  Everything was mandatory, 8-5pm, 12 months out of the year, and kids would spend more time being brainwashed, then they would being at their own home.

Part of how he and Goebells would erase any remnant of  Judeo-Christianity from Germany, was to not even give children the chance to worship aynthing other than Mein Kampf. This is what made many G-d-fearing parents in Germany very fearful, as their children were starting to place Hitler above G-d.  This is why Anti-Nazification was so crucial for the youth.  Because they were brainwashed beyond recognition.

I disagree that Nazism was as pervasive and complete as Islam.

Yes, all of the above is true--that National Socialists executed a very methodical and thorough modern brainwashing program. Nobody doubts that it was effective. Still, at its core Nazism was an evil secular ideology like Bolshevism. It was based in postmodern Nietschean German philosophy, not any one religion (well, Odinism to some extent, but the majority of the German people weren't devout Odinists). The term "anti-Semitism" in fact was coined to differentiate modern, secular Jew-hatred from the earlier theological Jew-hatred that so-called Christianity, from the likes of Luther, had promoted.

Since Nazism was based in secularism and relatively few Germans were devoutly religious, it did not have the same level of soul-gripping power that Islam does. When the Allies finally crushed Germany into the ground, the German civilians and remaining soldiers did not persist in a messianic fantasy or resort to mass martyrdom for a lost cause. They got the hint when Allied tanks rolled into Berlin that the fight was over and that they had no choice but pretend to be civilized human beings. Their hearts may not have changed but they stopped being active Nazis.

We all know that Muslims react substantially differently in these circumstances, because they believe Allah is on their side and that they are unstoppable.

[nessuno]

What level of action or violence is appropriate against Islam???  The same level that was appropriate against the Nazis and Naziism.  Not to kill all that have been brainwashed by it, but to do all we can to destroy the institutions and people that spread the hate.  It has to be a process of de-Islamification.  This is a fight of good against evil, not one religion against another.

The probelm with your logic is that Islam is a way of life, nazism wasn't - islam have roots in human psyche of 1,300 years, nazism had only 12 years! Whereas enlightened German people where able relatively easy and, I must say, with a sense of relief to shrug off their nazi nightmare, primitive islamic savages will not be able to do so with their islamic death cult. How can you make such a superficial comparison!? Bones is 100% right - these are amalekites and should all be defeated in spirit and in the body. We should help their remnants to transform and leave their death cult.

What?  You dont know your history!

Naziism WAS a way of life for all youth in Germany from 33-45. (Like Islam is today).  Thats the way Hitler had always wanted it.  As soon as you were old enough to understand the spoken word, you were put it Nazi youth leagues, Hitler Youth, Hitler female youth, etc.  German teachers would complain that so much of a child's time was spent learning National Socialism, that children were neglecting more crucial core academics.  (Sounds familar?).  Everything was mandatory, 8-5pm, 12 months out of the year, and kids would spend more time being brainwashed, then they would being at their own home.

Part of how he and Goebells would erase any remnant of  Judeo-Christianity from Germany, was to not even give children the chance to worship aynthing other than Mein Kampf. This is what made many G-d-fearing parents in Germany very fearful, as their children were starting to place Hitler above G-d.  This is why Anti-Nazification was so crucial for the youth.  Because they were brainwashed beyond recognition.

What you say is very true ..... Some years ago I read the Goebells diary and he was very precise in documenting his programs for indoctrinating the people as minister of information. I have a neighbor who was in the Hitler Youth and even to this day you can tell she is not quite right.

Harmonicat?    She's not quite right?  
Just kidding. 
She scares the dickens out of me. 

[VladTheImpaler]

I agree with  MO23888.

[New Yorker]

I agree with  MO23888.

I'll second that! 

[GoIsraelGo!]

The only option is to kill your enemy, or be killed. Right?

[VladTheImpaler]

Right republicandox.

The best form of defence is attack

[GoIsraelGo!]

Right republicandox.

The best form of defence is attack

Too bad the anti war liberals cannot see this logic.

I can't help but wonder if the liberal logic is fueled by some sort of retarted rebellion born from ignorance?


                                                       Shalom - Dox

[AsheDina]

Did you read that Bible verse that I gave you? I know that you are secular as indicated by your username, but do you really think that G-d would ever order innocent people killed? If G-d gave an order to wipe out Amalek wholesale, don't you think He knew that every last one of them had chosen evil or would choose evil when at the age of accountability? Do you think he would order people who He knew would repent later on killed?<<

As someone who is a believer, although secular, this is exactly the type of thought that scares me about some religious people.  Do you know that the Arabs are another case of Amelekites?  Are you sure about that?  I don't always oppose killing innocent people.  As I said I would favor hitting targets where terrorists are hiding behind civilians.  I favor the atomic bombs having been dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki as well as the firebombing of Dresden.  These were tactics needed to defeat a horribly brutal enenmy and not decisions taken lightly.  In fact it is estimated that the atomic bomb saved the lives of a million American soldiers and millions of Japanese who would have been killed in an invasion of the mainland.  I would not rule out Israel using nuclear weapons if the need arose, as supposedly it was contemplated during the Yom Kippur War.  However, this are very thoughtful reluctant decisions to take very brutal steps by civilized people with the understanding that it is an awesome responsibility to cause that level of suffering on innocents.

Again I ask you, would you go into a hospital ward and kill newborn Arab children?  Would you do it personally or just say that it is a good idea while sitting behind the safety of a computer keyboard?  Would you work as a guard at a death camp?  I would not do those things.  On the other hand I would gladly go to Israel to pull the switch at an execution of the sniper who murdered Shellhevet Pass or the moron who gleefully showed his bloody hands after taking part in the murder of the two soldiers, or the woman who lured the teenager to be murdered. 

As someone who is a believer, although secular,

So, you pick and choose HOW you wish to serve G-d?

[New Yorker]

Did you read that Bible verse that I gave you? I know that you are secular as indicated by your username, but do you really think that G-d would ever order innocent people killed? If G-d gave an order to wipe out Amalek wholesale, don't you think He knew that every last one of them had chosen evil or would choose evil when at the age of accountability? Do you think he would order people who He knew would repent later on killed?<<

As someone who is a believer, although secular, this is exactly the type of thought that scares me about some religious people.  Do you know that the Arabs are another case of Amelekites?  Are you sure about that?  I don't always oppose killing innocent people.  As I said I would favor hitting targets where terrorists are hiding behind civilians.  I favor the atomic bombs having been dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki as well as the firebombing of Dresden.  These were tactics needed to defeat a horribly brutal enenmy and not decisions taken lightly.  In fact it is estimated that the atomic bomb saved the lives of a million American soldiers and millions of Japanese who would have been killed in an invasion of the mainland.  I would not rule out Israel using nuclear weapons if the need arose, as supposedly it was contemplated during the Yom Kippur War.  However, this are very thoughtful reluctant decisions to take very brutal steps by civilized people with the understanding that it is an awesome responsibility to cause that level of suffering on innocents.

Again I ask you, would you go into a hospital ward and kill newborn Arab children?  Would you do it personally or just say that it is a good idea while sitting behind the safety of a computer keyboard?  Would you work as a guard at a death camp?  I would not do those things.  On the other hand I would gladly go to Israel to pull the switch at an execution of the sniper who murdered Shellhevet Pass or the moron who gleefully showed his bloody hands after taking part in the murder of the two soldiers, or the woman who lured the teenager to be murdered. 

As someone who is a believer, although secular,

So, you pick and choose HOW you wish to serve G-d?

Far better than the so called "Orthodox" Neturei Karta, traitorous enemies of Jews and Israel.

[AsheDina]

We should all play dead, and hopefully the sweet Muslims will believe us...