Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
People Kept Kosher Even Before The Torah Was Given!!!
muman613:
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on October 13, 2009, 02:47:12 PM ---Well even if Noah and his family didn’t eat the extra Kosher animals (although in Bereishith ch.9 Hashem did specifically tell them not to eat blood) the point is there was still a distinction between Kosher and treif animals long before the Torah was given.
I think the implication is that Hashem wants the Gentiles to convert to Judaism. Why did Hashem create the Gentiles if He did not want them to convert to Judaism.
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on October 13, 2009, 10:23:09 AM ---
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on October 13, 2009, 08:01:00 AM ---The Midrashim says Hashem made the Ivrim slaves in egypt because they did not keep Kosher.
--- End quote ---
Because they didn't keep kosher? Please cite the midrash.
--- End quote ---
The Midrash is the Zohar. I know you don’t accept the Zohar or maybe you have since changed your mind about it. But this is certainly a consistent explanation. Why were the Jews so extremely persecuted in egypt? Hashem would never send such a severe punishment on the entire Jewish people for nothing.
--- End quote ---
Do you have a reference to the Zohar which discusses this? I would be interested in reading it...
Regarding why Hashem created the gentile nations? I have heard many explanations... In the end of days there will be gentiles who are righteous and will see the messianic era {according to Rabbi Tovia Singers explanation at A7 on several programs}... And there are Jews who will not support Israel and the mission of the jewish people, and they will be destroyed with the rest of the evil in the world...
Some gentiles are put here to test Jews... This is one reason why Pharoah was allowed to subjugate the Jewish people. Pharoah went a bit too far once he started to massacre the Jewish people by throwing the babies into the river. It is one reason the Egyptian slavery was only 200 some years instead of the decreed 400 years...
http://www.aish.com/print/?contentID=48949406§ion=/h/pes/t/si
--- Quote ---Question: The Jews were only in Egypt for 210 years, yet the verse claims 400.
Answer 1: Since Pharaoh caused them unbearable torture, 210 years of brutal torture was equivalent to a full 400 years of humane subjugation. This is why we eat matzah with marror, and say that the reason we left Egypt in a hurry (symbolized by the matzah) was due to the marror (the bitterness).
Answer 2: Since the verse doesn't specify Egypt, it seems that God's promise could be referring to an earlier period when Abraham was in the "Promised Land" but had to pay a stiff price for his wife's grave. He remained a stranger in the land. The Exodus was exactly 400 years from the birth of Abraham's son Isaac.
We thank God for keeping His promise in a special way: He "calculated the end," subtracting the "Kaitz" (numerical value 190) from 400, leaving exactly 210 years.
The kabbalists say the Jews had reached the 49th level of impurity, and had they remained in Egypt for a moment longer they would have reached the 50th rung and never gone out. That's why it was necessary to "calculate the end."
"That promise"
God's promise -- that He will bring the Jews' adversaries to judgment and even out the score -- has kept us going. In every generation they come to destroy the Jewish people. (Our enemies have a true appreciation of the Jew's mission, sometimes even more than we do!) Yet the Almighty saves us from their hands, time and again.
Others explain the protection to refer to the Torah itself.
--- End quote ---
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on October 13, 2009, 02:47:12 PM ---
I think the implication is that Hashem wants the Gentiles to convert to Judaism.
--- End quote ---
But you just made that up. I see no indication anywhere that that is the implication of the Noah story or that that is what Chazal had in mind for what God intended. Can you point to some (Jewish) source to back this wild speculation?
--- Quote ---Why did Hashem create the Gentiles if He did not want them to convert to Judaism.
--- End quote ---
So that they could be good Gentiles.
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on October 13, 2009, 10:23:09 AM ---
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on October 13, 2009, 08:01:00 AM ---The Midrashim says Hashem made the Ivrim slaves in egypt because they did not keep Kosher.
--- End quote ---
Because they didn't keep kosher? Please cite the midrash.
--- End quote ---
The Midrash is the Zohar.
[/quote]
Like I said, cite your source. Just saying "zohar" is not sufficient. Where is it, and what is the quote? Put it in here. And just so you know, there is a difference between 'Zohar' and 'midrash.' Midrash is an earlier source from tannaic and amoraic era, such as Midrash rabba, midrash tanchuma, sifre, etc... Zohar is a category of its own.
But it is notable that if you are citing something that really does exist in zohar, not one Jewish source said such a thing about the slavery in Egypt, from the year the exodus took place, until the 1200's CE in Spain when the Zohar came out. Thus, that is NOT what the gemara says about the persecution in egypt, not what Chazal said, not what Torah said. The Torah says explicitly, as Muman already cited, that Hashem promised to Avraham we would be enslaved. And the Egyptians were NOT supposed to overly persecute us. That is why they were punished. If we deserved some kind of persecution because we "didn't keep kosher," then God was not justified (chas veshalom) to punish the Egyptians since they just gave us our just punishment. Chazal do not say this. The sources speak of Egypt's transgression against God's will in overly persecuting us, rather than just having us as slaves, as was the design. So I'm surprised the zohar would say this. Let's see you bring the source.
Sefardic Panther:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on October 13, 2009, 06:15:25 PM ---
--- Quote from: Sefardic Panther on October 13, 2009, 02:47:12 PM ---
I think the implication is that Hashem wants the Gentiles to convert to Judaism.
--- End quote ---
But you just made that up. I see no indication anywhere that that is the implication of the Noah story or that that is what Chazal had in mind for what G-d intended. Can you point to some (Jewish) source to back this wild speculation?
--- End quote ---
Well why else did Noah keep Kosher and offer sacrifices on the site of the Beith HaMiqdash?
It is obvious that the Noahide laws were intended as a temporary stepping stone to full conversion to Judaism. Who can be happy to be a Noahide? Where do Noahides worship? What type of school do they send their children to? What type of cemetery do they bury their dead in? Why is there no history of Noahide communities existing parallel to Jewish communities? Noahides are our dhimmis. They cannot pray with Jews or marry Jews and if they live in Erets Yisrael (that is a Toranic Israel not the joke that exists today) they must pay a higher tax and they are liable to a death penalty if they brake any one of the Noahide laws.
I say this with all due respect to any Noahides reading this. I think it is extremely admirable that you people have abandoned your idolatrous upringing and now worship the one and only G-d. But if you are serious about worshipping Hashem you should consider a full conversion to Judaism. Then and only then can you be counted as one of His people.
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on October 13, 2009, 10:23:09 AM ---Like I said, cite your source. Just saying "zohar" is not sufficient. Where is it, and what is the quote? Put it in here. And just so you know, there is a difference between 'Zohar' and 'midrash.' Midrash is an earlier source from tannaic and amoraic era, such as Midrash rabba, midrash tanchuma, sifre, etc
--- End quote ---
Rabbis who know that the Zohar was written by the great Tanna Rashbi calls it a Midrash.
In Zohar Parashat Shemoth Rabbi Hiya said if the Ivrim did not eat the food of the egyptians they would not have been forsaken in egypt and the egyptians would not have been able to harm them. Rabbi Yitshaq then argues that it was decreed that the Ivrim should be in exile. Rabbi Hiya says but it was not decreed that the exile be in egypt since Bereishith 15:13 only says they would be strangers in a strange land. Egypt was not specified.
muman613:
Shalom SP,
I will be studying some of the Zohar Shemot today... I have found a few very good sites with audio lectures on this portion...
So far I found the following:
http://www.ascentofsafed.com/cgi-bin/ascent.cgi?Name=z1364
A Golden Opportunity
Zohar, Shemot, p. 7b; translation and commentary by Simcha Treister
(From our sister-site, Kabbala Online)
Parashat Shemot talks of the exile and redemption of the Jewish people from their first exile in Egypt. In this section of the Zohar, Rebbe Shimon compares the Egyptian exile, where the Jews were given houses and food but were enslaved nonetheless, with the later exiles and the ultimate redemption through the leadership of the Mashiach.
Come and see. It is written: For thus says the Lord G-d, My people went down the first time to Egypt to live there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause. (Isaiah 52:4)
The Assyrians dispersed the exiled tribes to the furthermost corners of their empire and took from them and deprived them of their own country. Egypt provided the Jews with all of those good things [the land of Goshen and houses and food] and was nonetheless punished with all those punishments [the plagues and military destruction].
How much more will be the punishment of Syria and Edom [Europe] and those other peoples who anguish them and kill them and take their wealth. [This punishment will be] at the time when the Holy One Blessed be He decides to reveal the glory of His name on them. So it is written [about the war of Gog and Magog]: "Thus will I magnify Myself and sanctify Myself; and I will make Myself known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am G-d." (Ezek. 38:23). There in Egypt [when G-d manifested His glory] there was one king [Pharaoh]. In the future [redemption His glory will be manifested] to all the rulers of the world.
Rebbe Shimon lifted up his hands and cried.
The raising of the hands, which are each comprised of 10 fingers representing the 10 sefirot, is the physical manifestation of connecting to the higher sefirot, which are the containers of the manifestation of the Divine. The tears shed by Rebbe Shimon were a heartfelt attempt to sweeten the harsh judgment he foresaw.
He said: Woe to he who is present at that time [of the coming of the Mashiach] and happy is the portion of one who is present and found at that time.
Woe to he who is present at that time because at the time when the Holy One Blessed be He comes to redeem the deer [the Shechina from exile] He will look at all those who stand with her and at all those who are found with her. He will look at the actions of each and every one of them, and He will not find one who is worthy and righteous, as is written: "And I looked, and there was none to help" (Isaiah 63:5). Then how many troubles will come upon troubles for Israel. Happy is he who is ready at that time, because he who lives in faith at that time will be worthy to receive the light of the joy of the King [because then G-d will rejoice in His works]. It is of that time that the verse refers to; "I will refine them as silver is refined, and will test them as gold is tested". (Zechariah 13:9)
Silver is refined through heat. The impurities are burnt out. So will it be at the time of the revelation of the Mashiach.
The troubles will be like fire to purify the rebellious and the wicked. The remainder will be tested as to their faith as gold is tested in the goldsmith's forge to test if it is free of impurities. Happy are they who will have the faith enabling them to endure these times because they will see the direction of the seemingly chaotic events. Those who have no faith will be subject to terror and fear which will give them the chance to rise to the challenge - or fail the test.
Chabad has some good Zohar lessons online @ http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/576463/jewish/Book-of-Shemot-Exodus.htm
I would be interested in a more specific reference to the page and line # of this particular discussion...
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
Sefardic panther: I note that nowhere have you cited anything that suggests non-Jews are supposed to convert to Judaism. There is no indication from what you wrote from zohar (or anywhere else), that Noahides were made to be anything other than good Noahides. That is your own conclusion that you made, and you called it zohar! By saying these things, you are contravening Chazal, all modern (modern as in, post-Talmud) Judaism, and not to mention, basic Kahanist thought. I suggest you rethink your strange conclusions.
As to the kashrut issue, that is clearly not the pshat in the verses, but interesting. That being said, it does not seem to mean "Kashrut" in the sense of today's post-Matan Torah standards of kashrut, but rather, "Egyptian food" as in, things that sons of Yaakov at that time just did not customarily eat... say pig for example. (I don't know if egyptians ate it, but it might mean that, not necessarily other things there were also given at Sinai that may not have had a precedent in Jewish society). You again made a conclusion by saying "we didn't keep kashrut" but this is not about laws of kashrut or slaughter, you quote Rabbi Hiya as saying "food of the Egyptians." That's a general term because if he was keeping it somewhat realistic to draw this analogy.
So the whole purpose of the midrash is, not that this actually is what happened, but that there is a lesson to be drawn that today Jews need to keep kashrut (the standard that we have today), and not eat the food of other nations in galut. I think that is rather clear, that is the message zohar was giving over, and can't really see concluding that he meant it really happened that way. Which you seem to do.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version