Cryogenics

[zionistfp]

1) The human body is G‑d's creation, and it is therefore unbefitting to mutilate G‑d's handiwork.

Exactly.  Which is why it is incorrect to say that the body is not that important.  Actually the body is very important in Judaism.

[GoIsraelGo!]

We bury our dead in wood boxes so they can go back to the Earth.

G-d created our bodies to decompose, why disrupt that?

[muman613]

1) The human body is G‑d's creation, and it is therefore unbefitting to mutilate G‑d's handiwork.

Exactly.  Which is why it is incorrect to say that the body is not that important.  Actually the body is very important in Judaism.

The body is simply a vessel which can be used, or misused in this world. To ascribe too much to the body is to deny the spiritual. We should not make the body after dead into something which it was not meant for. As I quoted, “For you are dust, and to dust shall you return,”. This implies that the natural process of decay is essential for the body to experience...

[muman613]

More on this topic of ressurection of the dead and the journey of death:

http://www.torah.org/learning/ramchal/classes/class18.html
 "The Way of G-d"

Part 1: "The Fundamental Principles of Reality"

Ch. 3: "Mankind"

Paragraphs 9

Today we touch upon the recondite theme of The Resurrection of the Dead.

While many misunderstand it and many others reject it, belief in the Resurrection of the Dead is in fact an axiom of our faith. We hope to shed some light on it and to thus enable us all to understand the vital role it plays in our own ultimate perfection, as well as the world's.

For we'll find that the Resurrection of the Dead not only touches upon the resurrection of mankind-- but upon that of the world as well. Since both are inexorably linked, as we indicated in the previous entry when we said that when Adam and Eve erred they "did nearly irreparable damage to *themselves* and... *to the world*".

And as we put it earlier on (in 1:2:4), "we human beings stand center-stage" in creation, while "everything else... is secondary to us", and thus depends on and is tightly linked to us (see this quote in context). That's why, as Ramchal put it in "The Path of the Just" (Ch. 1) when we err, "both we and the world are damaged"; and when we strive for G-dliness, "both we and the world with us (are) elevated".

Ramchal goes to great pains to point out this week that neither we nor the world could ever achieve the sort of consummate perfection due *us both* while we're still in the current Post-Adamic state. Both we and it would need to experience decomposition and death, then resurrection.

So before discussing the Resurrection of the Dead we'd first have to explain decomposition and death.

Both, as Ramchal offers, are cosmic innovations. If you recall, Adam and Eve were warned not to "eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil; for you will surely die on the day that you eat from it" (Genesis 2:17). Which is to say that *they wouldn't have died had they not eaten from it*.

But death and decomposition-- the most frightening and threatening human experiences-- will prove to be a couple of mere "necessary evils" in the end, as we'll see; elements of a metaphysical "Plan B", if you will.

For what human death and decomposition is, in essence, is the process by means of which body and soul undo their dynamic relationship *for a time*, so that each may encounter what it alone must. And in order to allow for the Resurrection, and the great union with G-d that will take place in that environment.

But I get ahead of myself.

Apparently the human body must decompose in order for it to lose its identity, and to thus no longer be a party to the eating from the Tree of Knowledge. And the soul must leave the body in order to "restore its cells", so to speak, in the Soul Realm (as we'll come to see).

Not only we, but the world itself has to experience death and decomposition as a consequence of Adam and Eve's error (because of the aforementioned sure bond between us). For the world also played a role in the eating from the Tree of Knowledge (albeit a passive one); and it too must no longer be a party to that act.

Once the death and decomposition of the designated number of human bodies and the world at large comes about, a situation will arise that will allow for the reunion of body and soul, and for the re-establishment of a new world (which will be a sort of reunion of earth with its own "spirit"), and all will be primed for perfection.

Only then will the aforementioned ultimate intimacy with the Creator be possible.

[GoIsraelGo!]

Muman, you are so smart! I could never explain things in detail like you do.




                                       Shalom - Dox

[muman613]

Muman, you are so smart! I could never explain things in detail like you do.




                                       Shalom - Dox

Thank you very much... I have gotten most of this information from various sites. I do know the basic material and bring the links to support my opinion. Of course there is room for debate. One question I have now is why we believe that the bodies of the Tzadik doesn't decompose while the body of the normal man must decompose... As I quoted before, Joseph HaTzadik didn't need to be mumiffied because the righteous don't decompose. This is a question I have..

[muman613]

Here is some more interesting information about death and the righteous:

http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/Parasha/chrysler/archives/chukas.htm
To Die With a Kiss From G-d

From the word "there", Chazal draw an analogy with Moshe Rabeinu's death, where the Torah also uses the same word. Consequently, they say, just as Moshe died with a kiss from G-d (and not through the sword of the Angel of Death), so too did Miriam. The ramification of this is that:

a) They died serenely and painlessly;

b) Their bodies were not subject to decomposition;

c) Their bodies did not render those who touched them "tomei".

And:

http://www.inner.org/parshah/deuteronomy/vezot_habrachah/E68-0105.php
At the end of the first chapter of the Tractate of Baba Kama, we find the following: “The sages learnt: [The bodies of] seven individuals were not subject to decomposition: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Aaron, Miriam, and Benjamin the son of Jacob…. Benjamin the son of Jacob, as it says, “…The companion of Havayah, He dwells securely over him.” Rashi writes: “The Talmud learns that Benjamin dwells securely [i.e., his body does not decompose], because of his nearness and companionship with the Divine Presence.” That the body does not decompose is thus a product of the dwelling of the Divine Presence. But, since the Shechinah was only fully present in the time of the First Temple, it is clear that this is an effect related to wisdom (which we said above is the aspect of the Divine that dwelt in the First Temple). But, come the time of the Third Temple, “the G-d of Jacob,”16 as we explained earlier, not only will the body not decompose after death, but it will merit eternal life.

[Spiraling Leopard]

Why all this talk about strange ideology here? Many of these philosophies are patently against the Jewish belief. Of course you can believe what you want but any Jew who may be interested in this avodah zara could be damaged eternally...

Also it is questionable to use such sexually explicit language in this forum...

The man/woman union is the most blessed of unions in Judaism. We do not think that sex is dirty or perverted.. A man or woman who dies as a virgin may not attain Gan Eden because they did not fulfill the commandment to be fruitful and multiply... We have no merit for those who abstain..

I don't see anything sexually explicit in talking about methods to 'normalize' ones sexuality. In case you haven't noticed: sex and everything that comes with it is a big problem on this planet. Any attempt to clarify the spiritual physics of this important process and any urge to self-research should be applauded.
Taoist, Buddhist and Hindu Yogi's all know about these sort of practices. They usually do not cause a lot of problems here on earth.

Also, Taoist celibacy does not exclude sex nor reproduction. But the process enhances selfknowledge and the insight of seeking the right body and soul to reproduce with.
I don't mate with trolls and demons.

[muman613]

And Jewish faith has good explanations of the man/woman relationship. There is no need to look anywhere else...

[Muck DeFuslims]

Excuse me for saying this, but I just can't believe any of this stuff.

Bodies that don't decompose, indestructible bones that are only nourished by Shabbat meals.

Sorry, I don't believe this is true.

As for resurrection of the dead - can anyone cite specific Torah passages or scripture that tells us this is actually going to happen ?

Also, how will it happen ? Am I to believe that bodies will regenerate themselves from an indestructible bone we possess ?

Will the regenerated bodies magically reappear above ground or dig their way out of the grave ?

Additionally, what happens to the people that haven't died yet at the time of resurrection ?

Why would a physical resurrection even be necessary when it is the soul or spiritual aspect of our being that is supposedly at the center of eternal life ?

I find it very difficult to accept this resurrection business.

[Muck DeFuslims]

Excuse me for saying this, but I just can't believe any of this stuff.

Bodies that don't decompose, indestructible bones that are only nourished by Shabbat meals.

Sorry, I don't believe this is true.

As for resurrection of the dead - can anyone cite specific Torah passages or scripture that tells us this is actually going to happen ?

Also, how will it happen ? Am I to believe that bodies will regenerate themselves from an indestructible bone we possess ?

Will the regenerated bodies magically reappear above ground or dig their way out of the grave ?

Additionally, what happens to the people that haven't died yet at the time of resurrection ?

Why would a physical resurrection even be necessary when it is the soul or spiritual aspect of our being that is supposedly at the center of eternal life ?

I find it very difficult to accept this resurrection business.

I don't have an opinion on the decomposure/Shabbat meals part, but here are some scriptures:

Isaiah 26:19
 19 But your dead will live;
       their bodies will rise.
       You who dwell in the dust,
       wake up and shout for joy.
       Your dew is like the dew of the morning;
       the earth will give birth to her dead.

Daniel 12:13
 13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

Ezekiel 37:12-14
12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.' "

Thank you, Dan ben Noah.

I still find this stuff very difficult to accept, but the "your dead will live; their bodies will rise." verse in Isaiah and the "I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them;" line from Ezekiel certainly does seem to indicate an actual physical resurrection is foretold. 

[muman613]

And how about Isaiah - Chapter 26


 http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15957

26:19. May Your dead live, 'My corpses shall rise; awaken and sing, you who dwell in the dust, for a dew of lights is your dew, and [to the] earth You shall cast the slackers.

OOPS: I see that your already found this one...

Here is more from Chabad site:

http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380668/jewish/Resurrection-and-Reincarnation.htm
Resurrection and Reincarnation

By Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai; adapted from the Zohar by Shabtai Teicher

This article is excerpted from Shabtai Teicher's new translation and commentary on "Sabba d'Mishpatim" from the Zohar, THE OLD MAN IN THE SEA: Reincarnation, Resurrection, Redemption (part 1).

Resurrection of the Dead is one of the 13 Principles of Jewish Faith, explicated specifically by the Rambam (commentary on Mishnah Sanhedrin, Chapter 10). A short formula expressing the essence of each one of the thirteen principles appears in many standard prayer books. The formula relevant to Resurrection of the Dead is as follows:

"I believe with complete faith that there will occur Resurrection of the Dead at the time it is willed by the Creator, may His Name be blessed, and may His memory be exalted forever and ever."
The person…is a unique combination of soul and body….

The doctrine of Resurrection of the Dead is mentioned already in the Mishnah (c.170 C.E.), and the Talmud goes to great lengths to prove that it has been intimated clearly and repeatedly, albeit not stated expressly, by the Prophets and in the Five Books of Moses.

This principle of Jewish Faith concerns resurrection from the dead of the body and the soul. Reincarnation, on the other hand, is a phenomenon of the soul. Obviously, it is not the body that reincarnates from one lifetime to another. Moreover, it cannot be the "person" that reincarnates either. The person, for example, Isaac the son of Abraham, or Dinah the daughter of Leah, is a unique combination of soul and body. Just as the body does not reincarnate, so it seems that the combination of body and soul also cannot reincarnate.

However, the body of the person does come back to life at the time of the Resurrection of the Dead according to our belief. Consequently, the person who is the unique combination of resurrected body and rectified soul, which has a unique and particular name, also comes back to life at that time.

The complete entry of the Nefesh into the body, which is called tikun of the Nefesh, is accomplished only through the performance of mitzvot… ["Gate of Reincarnations" by the holy Ari, Chapter 4:3 - Mitzvot and Tikun (click here)].

This means that tikun proper applies to the completion of the Nefesh by the entry of new sparks, which is caused by the fulfillment of positive mitzvot.

In addition, the Ari states,Text "[Regarding one] who only received a Nefesh during his lifetime and didn't merit to completely rectify it and then dies, since the first body did not complete the tikun of all levels of Nefesh, then at the time of Resurrection of the Dead only those sections of soul that were rectified in the lifetime of that body return with it." (ibid)

Since the body has participated in the performance of mitzvot, it is only just that it should also share in the eternal reward that is the consequence of the performance of mitzvot. Therefore, it too comes back to life in the time of the Resurrection together with those parts of the soul that were rectified during its lifetime.

When this particular reincarnation will resurrect, it will receive only those sparks that were rectified through it. The other parts of the Nefesh will return to the other bodies wherein they were rectified.


see also http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380694/jewish/Get-Up-Luz-Bones.htm

Rebbe Shimon said… Come and see what is written [concerning the Resurrection of the Dead]: "Remember, please, that You fashioned me like clay, and that You will return me to the dust again"(Job 10:9). What is written immediately following this? "You will pour me out like milk, and curdle me like cheese. You will clothe me with skin and flesh, and knit me together with bones and sinews"(ibid. 10:10). After a person's body decays in the ground, and the time of the Resurrection of the Dead comes, the Holy One will take that bone that remains and process it like dough, and like cheese is curdled from milk… That bone will then be mixed with the remainder of the body [that has already decomposed and become dust]. [That bone] will then also become liquid like milk. It will then be curdled and given a form, like cheese is curdled out of milk. Skin, flesh, sinew and bone will then be stretched over it. This is the meaning of, "You will pour me out like milk, and curdle me like cheese…"[Pirkey d'Rebbe Eliezer 34:]

[zionistfp]

We bury our dead in wood boxes so they can go back to the Earth.

G-d created our bodies to decompose, why disrupt that?

Why indeed?  If we do not drink water, our bodies will quickly turn to dust.  If we do not take up arms, our enemies will quickly incinerate our bodies.  If we do not build houses to live in, our bodies will freeze to death. 

[angryChineseKahanist]

Going back to the original topic...
When someone dies and their bodies frozen, what about the soul?
Now, when we do have the technology to bring back the bodies with a working brain attached, what about the soul?
Where will you find the soul and how can you put it back into the walking body?
Or perhaps we'll have walking - talking bodies that behave like they did when alive -- just souless. Do we really have the original persons?
If they brought back  grandma 500 years later in the year 2500, is it really grandma or a drone?

[zionistfp]

Going back to the original topic...
When someone dies and their bodies frozen, what about the soul?
Now, when we do have the technology to bring back the bodies with a working brain attached, what about the soul?

I would guess it's similar to when people have a near death experience.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Ok and why is cremation frowned upon . . . if the body is not that important?

For that matter, if the body is not that important, what's wrong with getting tattooed?

Who said the body is not important?  In Jewish belief, it IS important, and it is mandatory to take care of your body while still alive.    What you are talking about (preserving the body AFTER death) is something completely different.    We're supposed to bury our dead, and putting a body into the ground, it decomposes and is part of the cycle of nature.   I'm pretty sure the idea of "embalming" a body is against halacha, despite what was done in Egypt with Yosef....

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

1) The human body is G‑d's creation, and it is therefore unbefitting to mutilate G‑d's handiwork.

Exactly.  Which is why it is incorrect to say that the body is not that important.  Actually the body is very important in Judaism.

No one said that.   Your problem is you are equating the body while a person is still alive, with the body while a person has died.   And you are defining "important" by preserving in intact form.   That is an Egyptian practice to perserve the body mummified so that it will be "in tact" in the afterlife.   Jews never believed in that and never thought that was necessary.   After the person dies, when the body decomposes in the natural process God made, that is NOT saying a body is not important, and it is NOT the same as a living person purposely defiling their body (obviously unnatural).

[muman613]

Ok and why is cremation frowned upon . . . if the body is not that important?

For that matter, if the body is not that important, what's wrong with getting tattooed?

Who said the body is not important?  In Jewish belief, it IS important, and it is mandatory to take care of your body while still alive.    What you are talking about (preserving the body AFTER death) is something completely different.    We're supposed to bury our dead, and putting a body into the ground, it decomposes and is part of the cycle of nature.   I'm pretty sure the idea of "embalming" a body is against halacha, despite what was done in Egypt with Yosef....

In one of my previous posts I explained why Yosef was embalmed... He was embalmed because the people of Egypt might have thought he was a god if his body didn't decompose {because a tzadiks body does not naturally decompose} if he weren't embalmed.

[zionistfp]

Who said the body is not important? 

Muman613 said this:

We don't believe that the body is that important

  We're supposed to bury our dead, and putting a body into the ground, it decomposes and is part of the cycle of nature. 

Then what's wrong with cremating the body and burying the ashes?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I don't mate with trolls and demons.

LOL.   I legitimately laughed out loud at this.

I don't think any of us were worried.    ..... But should we be?    Maybe we are now, with a statement like that...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Also, how will it happen ?

We believe God will do that.   No other way it is possible.

Will the regenerated bodies magically reappear above ground or dig their way out of the grave ?

No one really knows the details of such a thing.   But it can inspire creative novels and interesting films.

Why would a physical resurrection even be necessary when it is the soul or spiritual aspect of our being that is supposedly at the center of eternal life ?

Perhaps, the soul may be eternal but there isn't 'life' for it without a body of some kind.   I don't really know so much about it.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Ok and why is cremation frowned upon . . . if the body is not that important?

For that matter, if the body is not that important, what's wrong with getting tattooed?

Who said the body is not important?  In Jewish belief, it IS important, and it is mandatory to take care of your body while still alive.    What you are talking about (preserving the body AFTER death) is something completely different.    We're supposed to bury our dead, and putting a body into the ground, it decomposes and is part of the cycle of nature.   I'm pretty sure the idea of "embalming" a body is against halacha, despite what was done in Egypt with Yosef....

In one of my previous posts I explained why Yosef was embalmed... He was embalmed because the people of Egypt might have thought he was a G-d if his body didn't decompose {because a tzadiks body does not naturally decompose} if he weren't embalmed.

Whatever it is, isn't it forbidden after the Torah was given?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Who said the body is not important? 

Muman613 said this:

We don't believe that the body is that important

 

I think he makes a mistake by saying this.   On the other hand, I don't think he meant it in the way it sounds.   I think he meant to say that you are overemphasizing the body's importance.   NOT that it isn't actually  important.   Muman can correct me if I have him wrong here.

  We're supposed to bury our dead, and putting a body into the ground, it decomposes and is part of the cycle of nature. 

Then what's wrong with cremating the body and burying the ashes?

Are you honestly suggesting that's the same thing?   The natural decomposition does not take place.   COMBUSTION (you know, the process where something burns) prevents all that.     Ashes are not the same thing as a human body.

[muman613]

Who said the body is not important? 

Muman613 said this:

We don't believe that the body is that important

 

I think he makes a mistake by saying this.   On the other hand, I don't think he meant it in the way it sounds.   I think he meant to say that you are overemphasizing the body's importance.   NOT that it isn't actually  important.   Muman can correct me if I have him wrong here.

  We're supposed to bury our dead, and putting a body into the ground, it decomposes and is part of the cycle of nature. 

Then what's wrong with cremating the body and burying the ashes?

Are you honestly suggesting that's the same thing?   The natural decomposition does not take place.   COMBUSTION (you know, the process where something burns) prevents all that.     Ashes are not the same thing as a human body.

Hello,

Yes, of course the body is important in this world. It is through our bodies which we can do the mitzvot, which in some way earn us reward in the world to come. We should do everything we can to lengthen our lives and refrain from things which destroy life. This is basic Judaism 101.

What I was saying about the body being unimportant is in the greater scheme of eternity. Our eternal souls are what we are working on through this process of Tikkun {rectification}. Our mission, as Jews, is to bring the world toward knowledge of the ONE G-d, the creator of the heavens and the earth. Some Jews fail at this mission and go down in their level, and some Jews hearken to the voice and move upward toward Gan Eden {Paradise}. At the same time we are rectifying this world to bring it to the age of Moshiach, and then the resuscitation of the dead {which we have discussed extensively here}.

The body is important in this world but we should not be vain, and not be too concerned with material wealth, fame or beauty. This is what I learn and what I am trying to say.