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Serbs in Turkey
voo-yo:
--- Quote from: Mehmetce on November 08, 2009, 07:52:32 AM ---
--- Quote from: voo-yo on November 08, 2009, 06:58:59 AM ---
--- Quote from: Mehmetce on November 08, 2009, 06:50:05 AM ---Well ok,as far as I know there is no Serbs because I don't see them.
There are some Albanians,Bosnaks,Macedonians,Bulgarians,Greeks and all the others.
You may describe muslim serbs (bosnaks) as serbs but I don't.If they are not chrsitian,they are not serbs.
But no Serbs,This is maybe becuase of the war and violent acts which took place in 1990s and Turkish media showed the Serbs as evil.
--- End quote ---
Exactly! You're a Turk, right?
Those Turks of serbian origin will never say they are of serbian origin. They will always say they are Bosnians, Bosniaks etc.
It's because we feel great hostility towards them, and they to us. We fought bitterly between each other for hundreds of years, unlike Greeks, Bulgarians and other Balkan nations.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Serbian_Radical_Party on November 08, 2009, 07:05:50 AM ---
--- Quote from: Mehmetce on November 08, 2009, 06:50:05 AM ---Well OK,as far as I know there is no Serbs because I don't see them.
There are some Albanians,Bosnaks,Macedonians,Bulgarians,Greeks and all the others.
You may describe Muslim Serbs (bosnaks) as Serbs but I don't.If they are not chrsitian,they are not Serbs.
But no Serbs,This is maybe because of the war and violent acts which took place in 1990s and Turkish media showed the Serbs as evil.
--- End quote ---
So you are ignoring the existence of the Serbian-Turkish friendship organization [Enat], which is also active on Turkish soil? You are not informed enough. You can go to Istanbul and encouter these Muslim Serbs.
Serbs are originally Christians, but on Serbian occupied territories colonial powers forced local Serbs to accept the religion of the occupying forces.
Do you really think that during the 500-year long Turkish occupation, Turkish authorities were not able to convert Serbs into Muslims? Of course they were able to conduct that. Where are those Muslim Serbs today? Most of them assimilated into new nations. They call them selves Bosniaks today. But they still speak Serbian. This confirms the assimilation of some Serbs.
On the other side, Catholic Empires ruled 1000 years long with Serbian territories and converted many Serbs into Catholics, who were later convinced to assimilate into Croatians.
So you have besides Orthodox Serbs, also Muslim and Catholic Serbs.
Muslim and Catholic Serbs from the Balkans were assimilated into new nations [Croatian and Bosniak]. Muslim Serbs from Turkey, condemn that and their representatives state that that is an immoral action.
--- End quote ---
Serbian Radical Party I am not trying to ignore anything,just trying to say what I see.
I already live in Istanbul since my birth,I had friends of all balkanic nations in Istanbul including Jewish friends also.But I never saw any Serbs who says he is serb.
This is maybe becuase of the war in 1990s as I told you.So many turks don't like serbs so maybe they try to hide it.
So I am agree with voo-yo on this.
While I respect to peace efforts of Enat,btw I heard it for the first time form you,I would definitely say that this is immposible.I know how serbs are feeling so much angry about Turkish occupation of 500 years,I am not going to discuss wheter or not this is legitimate.But I wanna say this is the situation.You've mass murdered your own people only because they are muslims.You've took revenge of your 500 years Turkish occupation from your own muslims.These people you slayed were etnically,culturally,historically,and even the langually were same with you.By the way don't get it wrong,I am not blaming you or anybody.Becuase of all these incidents I don't think turkey and serbia would have a certain and parmanent peace.
If a war breaks out which Turkey involves,I would not give a deleted and run away to Hawaii,because I like to live life more than my nationality or country.
These terms are not describing anything to me.
--- End quote ---
First, let me ask you, if I can, why did you join JTF? Are you a fanatical secularist or something?
We see from your post a great example of Turkish viewpoint on our situation. And it shows, that you can't really understand it. The truth is, there are many Turks of serbian origin in Istanbul, for example, a lot of your basketball players have serbian ancestry, like Hedo Turkoglu and Mirsad Turkcan. But, their ancestors were calling themselves Turks from the point of conversion. There were not many "real" Turks in Serbia and Bosnia, we were ruled by our muslim "brothers". That's where the hate comes from. They are of serbian blood, language... but their god is different, and that difference was crucial. I can't explain it, that wasn't the situation with other nations in the Balkans, especially with Albanians. To them, religion was never important, they were converting for pragmatic reasons, and christians and muslims there are still being considered one people.
mord:
--- Quote ---If a war breaks out which Turkey involves,I would not give a deleted and run away to Hawaii,because I like to live life more than my nationality or country.
--- End quote ---
Hawaii looks nice but the people are not friendly N.Y., California or Pennsylvania would be a better place to move to if you wanted to move
Serbian_Radical_Party:
--- Quote from: Mehmetce on November 08, 2009, 08:16:38 AM ---
Well of course I do know these incidents and also what did bosnians and others did to the serbs in the past and just after the bosnia war.
I am not blaming serbs for everything,see?I am just trying to expose the hate you feel each other,of course this is just a genelirzation not talking about you.Almost all sides did the most terrible things to each other.Therefore I don't see a parmenant peace in the future.
Your problem with croats is because they are catholic and you're othodox is that right?
By the way I know this is a an ironic question,but,why Serbs are the cause of each World War I and World War II ?Or if isn't why so many people claim that?
--- End quote ---
My Turkish friend. Sometimes I react explosively. I get irritated when I see people using western-media lies against Serbs. Do not take it personally friend! I am glad that you want to hear our story as well.
First of all Orthodox Serbs did not tried to biological exterminate Croatians and Bosnian Muslims. Croatians and Bosnians Muslims were Nazis during 1941 and tried to biologically exterminate Orthodox Serbs living on the western side of the rivers of Drina and Dunau. Orthodox Serbs did not intent to exterminate anybody. Please examine WW2 and the real context of the last Balkan war.
So you can not say that Orthodox Serbs committed the same atrocities against anyone, as Croats and Bosnian Muslims did against Serbs.
--- Quote from: Mehmetce on November 08, 2009, 08:16:38 AM ---By the way I know this is a an ironic question,but,why Serbs are the cause of each World War I and World War II ?Or if isn't why so many people claim that?
--- End quote ---
No !
WW1 was a trap.
The Austrian Emperor, Frans Ferdinand, represented the occupying forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina. He was killed by Serbs when he was visiting Sarajevo, because local population of Bosnia was oppressed by Austria and considered Austrians as occupying forces.
If today Bush would visit Bagdad, than Iraqi people will also kill him. Nobody likes occupying forces! So its not a surprise the Serbs killed the Emperor of an Empire that occupied Serbian territories and demonstrated force. The Austro-Hungarian authorities orchested the visiting of their emperor, Frans Ferdinand, on purpose, in order to get him killed by the Serbs. The murdering of him was used as an excuse to occupy Serbia and to amplify the Austrian military presence in Bosnia.
Austria wanted war with Serbia since Serbia liberated its self from the Turkish occupation. As soon as the Turks left the Balkans, Austrians wanted to occupy the Balkans.
voo-yo:
--- Quote from: Spectator on November 08, 2009, 08:10:08 AM ---
--- Quote from: Serbian_Radical_Party on November 08, 2009, 07:40:42 AM ---Brother Spectator,
You are now mentioning that from the Jewish perspective.
You understand the Serbs who become Jews are in our eyes genetically Serbs.
The difference between them is that they are spiritually not Serbs, only genetically.
I think that we must not all hate all Serbs who left Orthodoxy.
Many of them were forced to do that. Some of them did it voluntarily but many were forced by the knife to abandon Orthodoxy.
--- End quote ---
I understand your point. But this is only a theoretical situation. I don't think there were many Serbs who converted to Judaism, personally I never heard about it.
As for the attitude to the Serbs who converted to the other religions, this is your internal Serbian issue. But it is one of the most interesting topics in this section for a long time.
--- End quote ---
I believe Belgrade rabbi was born a Serb.
Mehmetce:
--- Quote from: voo-yo on November 08, 2009, 08:28:17 AM ---
--- Quote from: Mehmetce on November 08, 2009, 07:52:32 AM ---
--- Quote from: voo-yo on November 08, 2009, 06:58:59 AM ---
--- Quote from: Mehmetce on November 08, 2009, 06:50:05 AM ---Well ok,as far as I know there is no Serbs because I don't see them.
There are some Albanians,Bosnaks,Macedonians,Bulgarians,Greeks and all the others.
You may describe muslim serbs (bosnaks) as serbs but I don't.If they are not chrsitian,they are not serbs.
But no Serbs,This is maybe becuase of the war and violent acts which took place in 1990s and Turkish media showed the Serbs as evil.
--- End quote ---
Exactly! You're a Turk, right?
Those Turks of serbian origin will never say they are of serbian origin. They will always say they are Bosnians, Bosniaks etc.
It's because we feel great hostility towards them, and they to us. We fought bitterly between each other for hundreds of years, unlike Greeks, Bulgarians and other Balkan nations.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Serbian_Radical_Party on November 08, 2009, 07:05:50 AM ---
--- Quote from: Mehmetce on November 08, 2009, 06:50:05 AM ---Well OK,as far as I know there is no Serbs because I don't see them.
There are some Albanians,Bosnaks,Macedonians,Bulgarians,Greeks and all the others.
You may describe Muslim Serbs (bosnaks) as Serbs but I don't.If they are not chrsitian,they are not Serbs.
But no Serbs,This is maybe because of the war and violent acts which took place in 1990s and Turkish media showed the Serbs as evil.
--- End quote ---
So you are ignoring the existence of the Serbian-Turkish friendship organization [Enat], which is also active on Turkish soil? You are not informed enough. You can go to Istanbul and encouter these Muslim Serbs.
Serbs are originally Christians, but on Serbian occupied territories colonial powers forced local Serbs to accept the religion of the occupying forces.
Do you really think that during the 500-year long Turkish occupation, Turkish authorities were not able to convert Serbs into Muslims? Of course they were able to conduct that. Where are those Muslim Serbs today? Most of them assimilated into new nations. They call them selves Bosniaks today. But they still speak Serbian. This confirms the assimilation of some Serbs.
On the other side, Catholic Empires ruled 1000 years long with Serbian territories and converted many Serbs into Catholics, who were later convinced to assimilate into Croatians.
So you have besides Orthodox Serbs, also Muslim and Catholic Serbs.
Muslim and Catholic Serbs from the Balkans were assimilated into new nations [Croatian and Bosniak]. Muslim Serbs from Turkey, condemn that and their representatives state that that is an immoral action.
--- End quote ---
Serbian Radical Party I am not trying to ignore anything,just trying to say what I see.
I already live in Istanbul since my birth,I had friends of all balkanic nations in Istanbul including Jewish friends also.But I never saw any Serbs who says he is serb.
This is maybe becuase of the war in 1990s as I told you.So many turks don't like serbs so maybe they try to hide it.
So I am agree with voo-yo on this.
While I respect to peace efforts of Enat,btw I heard it for the first time form you,I would definitely say that this is immposible.I know how serbs are feeling so much angry about Turkish occupation of 500 years,I am not going to discuss wheter or not this is legitimate.But I wanna say this is the situation.You've mass murdered your own people only because they are muslims.You've took revenge of your 500 years Turkish occupation from your own muslims.These people you slayed were etnically,culturally,historically,and even the langually were same with you.By the way don't get it wrong,I am not blaming you or anybody.Becuase of all these incidents I don't think turkey and serbia would have a certain and parmanent peace.
If a war breaks out which Turkey involves,I would not give a deleted and run away to Hawaii,because I like to live life more than my nationality or country.
These terms are not describing anything to me.
--- End quote ---
First, let me ask you, if I can, why did you join JTF? Are you a fanatical secularist or something?
We see from your post a great example of Turkish viewpoint on our situation. And it shows, that you can't really understand it. The truth is, there are many Turks of serbian origin in Istanbul, for example, a lot of your basketball players have serbian ancestry, like Hedo Turkoglu and Mirsad Turkcan. But, their ancestors were calling themselves Turks from the point of conversion. There were not many "real" Turks in Serbia and Bosnia, we were ruled by our muslim "brothers". That's where the hate comes from. They are of serbian blood, language... but their G-d is different, and that difference was crucial. I can't explain it, that wasn't the situation with other nations in the Balkans, especially with Albanians. To them, religion was never important, they were converting for pragmatic reasons, and christians and muslims there are still being considered one people.
--- End quote ---
Some journalists asked Hidayet Turkoglu wheter or not he is a Serb.He replied back and said he is relgiously and with his flesh and bone a Turk.He doesn't accept to be Serb.
Mirsad Turkcan did the same after a match between Serbia-Turkey.He said some of serbian players insulted him during the play and asked him why he plays for the turks while he is serbian,he said he was never serbian to the players.Well obviously it's unreasonable for him to say he is not serb while he could speak and understand the serbian with the players in the match.I dunno how many times should I tell it?
EVEN THERE ARE SOME SERBS IN TURKEY CURRENTLY THEY DON'T SAY THIS .IT IS PROBABLY THEY ARE ASHAMED OF THE WAR İN 1990S AND THE TURKISH MEDIA WHO SHOWED SERBS AS THE EVIL.
I don't have to explain why joined to JTF while It can easily be understood.
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