Elevator

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Good question. I think it depends on how pious this Jew is. I think 99% of Jews in this situation would push the button.

No, 99% percent of real orthodox Jews wouldn't push it. Technically, some poskim argue that shabbos elevators are muktzah. But in the case ACK brought down, it would be forbidden to press the button.

He's not talking about Shabbos elevator because he probably has no idea what that is.   A Shabbat elevator is MUTAR.   Chinese kahanist is asking speaking about a standard elevator.

I know a rabbi who says that is also permitted.   But of course some will argue.   Can they bring any proof against him?  That's another question entirely.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I think the books need to be updated. Everything uses electricity. How do you avoid it?
We're surrounded by electronic gadgets.
I mean, if you're surrounded by four homeboys and you see a taser on the table, do you stand there and die or use it?
What if you have a heart machine?

You are permitted to break Shabbat to save your life.   No need to update any books for that.   The homeboys would be begging for mercy.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

But should we modernise it?
5000 years ago there was no such thing as running warm water or TV.
Where do they get the idea that electricity is unkosher?

Who's "we?"   Are you Jewish?

No one said electricity is "unkosher."   During the weak it is laudable to use electricity to learn Torah, carry out daily activities etc.   No problem.   On Shabbat, it is forbidden to use it based on what constitutes a forbidden behavior in Shabbat.   A certain type of activity is forbidden on Shabbat for Jews and always has been.   So the question is, whenever a new activity comes out, does it fit with those criteria that cause something to be forbidden to use on Shabbat, or does it not?   It was a complicated discussion when it came out to determine whether it fit certain criteria.   They consulted experts in physics and electricity itself to gather the proper information to be able to decide.   Nothing ancient or archaic about it.

So it is not forbidden if the electric device (say, a lightbulb) was already on before Shabbat and left on for the duration of Shabbat.   To shut the device or turn it on would be to do the forbidden activity.   That is why Shabbat observing Jews might leave the bathroom light on all Shabbat (they turn it on before Shabbat starts), so that people can see when they use the bathroom.   Nothing "unkosher" about electricity in of itself.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Here is a link to the teshuva and discussion.
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2009/10/shabbos-elevators-rav-meir-triebitz.html

Perhaps this entire thread belongs in the Judaism section and should have been posted there in the first place.

And be careful to heed Anonymous comment #2 which correctly points out that Rabbi Treibitz's teshuva is NOT about a "Shabbat elevator," but is speaking about a standard elevator for use on Shabbat.    I'm not sure why Rabbi Eidensohn confused this issue.

As to the "Shabbos Elevator" Rabbi Treibitz holds that Avadae (certainly) it is completely mutar (permitted).    In regards to the recent "controversy" surrounding the "Shabbos elevator," untrue things were published.

[angryChineseKahanist]

Take it easy. I'm just trying to understand why Jews can't touch that elevator.

[The One and Only Mo]

The point is, it's best to stay away from Shabbos elevators. And it's accepted that non-shabbos elevators are muktzeh (can't use em).

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The point is, it's best to stay away from Shabbos elevators. And it's accepted that non-shabbos elevators are muktzeh (can't use em).

Not according to Rabbi Meir Treibitz.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Take it easy. I'm just trying to understand why Jews can't touch that elevator.

And I'm just answering you.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The point is, it's best to stay away from Shabbos elevators.

It's not really best either way because the 'Shabbos elevator' is completely mutar.    Anyone who has any particular reason to use it can use it and they are not breaking Shabbat.  They don't have to worry at all that there is any problem.

[The One and Only Mo]

The point is, it's best to stay away from Shabbos elevators.

It's not really best either way because the 'Shabbos elevator' is completely mutar.    Anyone who has any particular reason to use it can use it and they are not breaking Shabbat.  They don't have to worry at all that there is any problem.

It still depends on who you follow....

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The point is, it's best to stay away from Shabbos elevators.

It's not really best either way because the 'Shabbos elevator' is completely mutar.    Anyone who has any particular reason to use it can use it and they are not breaking Shabbat.  They don't have to worry at all that there is any problem.

It still depends on who you follow....

But most people knew this already that it was permitted, and many many people utilized it.   Only recently Rabbi Eliyashiv supposedly made a ruling against it, contrary to current practiced halacha by the vast majority of Jews, and supposedly he has now retracted those statements.   I don't know what is true or isn't true in that story, but this is what was reported.

[The One and Only Mo]

The point is, it's best to stay away from Shabbos elevators.

It's not really best either way because the 'Shabbos elevator' is completely mutar.    Anyone who has any particular reason to use it can use it and they are not breaking Shabbat.  They don't have to worry at all that there is any problem.

It still depends on who you follow....

But most people knew this already that it was permitted, and many many people utilized it.   Only recently Rabbi Eliyashiv supposedly made a ruling against it, contrary to current practiced halacha by the vast majority of Jews, and supposedly he has now retracted those statements.   I don't know what is true or isn't true in that story, but this is what was reported.

What's TECHNICALLY allowed isn't exactly what's the best thing to do. For example, women wearing tzitzis. Just because it's technically allowed, doesn't mean we should go out of our way to do it. Is it allowed to take a shabbos elevator depending on who you ask? Yeah, probably. Does it mean you should? No, it's best to avoid it.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The point is, it's best to stay away from Shabbos elevators.

It's not really best either way because the 'Shabbos elevator' is completely mutar.    Anyone who has any particular reason to use it can use it and they are not breaking Shabbat.  They don't have to worry at all that there is any problem.

It still depends on who you follow....

But most people knew this already that it was permitted, and many many people utilized it.   Only recently Rabbi Eliyashiv supposedly made a ruling against it, contrary to current practiced halacha by the vast majority of Jews, and supposedly he has now retracted those statements.   I don't know what is true or isn't true in that story, but this is what was reported.

What's TECHNICALLY allowed isn't exactly what's the best thing to do. For example, women wearing tzitzis. Just because it's technically allowed, doesn't mean we should go out of our way to do it. Is it allowed to take a shabbos elevator depending on who you ask? Yeah, probably. Does it mean you should? No, it's best to avoid it.

No, that's wrong and it's not a valid comparison.  Something is either melacha or it isn't.  If it isn't, it's permitted on Shabbat.   If it is melacha it's forbidden.    Because some daas yachid says it's melacha doesn't make us any less certain that it isn't melacha and that it is permitted to the explanation that says it is permitted.    And so anyone who follows that opinion FOR ANY REASON does not have to be suspect that he really shouldn't be using it.   If he has some reason to use it, it's permitted.   

The relation to women in tzitzit escapes me.

[The One and Only Mo]

The point is, it's best to stay away from Shabbos elevators.

It's not really best either way because the 'Shabbos elevator' is completely mutar.    Anyone who has any particular reason to use it can use it and they are not breaking Shabbat.  They don't have to worry at all that there is any problem.

It still depends on who you follow....

But most people knew this already that it was permitted, and many many people utilized it.   Only recently Rabbi Eliyashiv supposedly made a ruling against it, contrary to current practiced halacha by the vast majority of Jews, and supposedly he has now retracted those statements.   I don't know what is true or isn't true in that story, but this is what was reported.

What's TECHNICALLY allowed isn't exactly what's the best thing to do. For example, women wearing tzitzis. Just because it's technically allowed, doesn't mean we should go out of our way to do it. Is it allowed to take a shabbos elevator depending on who you ask? Yeah, probably. Does it mean you should? No, it's best to avoid it.

No, that's wrong and it's not a valid comparison.  Something is either melacha or it isn't.  If it isn't, it's permitted on Shabbat.   If it is melacha it's forbidden.    Because some daas yachid says it's melacha doesn't make us any less certain that it isn't melacha and that it is permitted to the explanation that says it is permitted.    And so anyone who follows that opinion FOR ANY REASON does not have to be suspect that he really shouldn't be using it.   If he has some reason to use it, it's permitted.   

The relation to women in tzitzit escapes me.

I was just using a classic example off the top of my head for something that is allowed but isn't done. This isn't worth arguing over. If you learned it's fine and you should do it, then great. If I learned to just take the steps anyways, then fine. Clearly, We both agree that there is nothing wrong with taking the steps.

[angryChineseKahanist]

I think the bathroom light thing is a problem.
If you can't touch that switch and you leave the lights on all day, you're still walking into the room. So, you're still using the electric light.
Same as with the elevator that stops on every floor, you're still using it.

If I was born a Jew, I'd push that button and I'd flip that switch.
Not easy being a Jew.

[The One and Only Mo]

I think the bathroom light thing is a problem.
If you can't touch that switch and you leave the lights on all day, you're still walking into the room. So, you're still using the electric light.
Same as with the elevator that stops on every floor, you're still using it.

If I was born a Jew, I'd push that button and I'd flip that switch.
Not easy being a Jew.

The light thing you speak of is a hard concept to understand. I hope muman posts something that can explain it to you or whoever else has that question.

[Zelhar]

I think the bathroom light thing is a problem.
If you can't touch that switch and you leave the lights on all day, you're still walking into the room. So, you're still using the electric light.
Same as with the elevator that stops on every floor, you're still using it.

If I was born a Jew, I'd push that button and I'd flip that switch.
Not easy being a Jew.

You don't comprehend this issue properly. Walking into the light isn't considered as "melacha" (which roughly means work). Fortunately, using the bathroom isn't forbidden on the shabbat and so is breathing.

[The One and Only Mo]

I think the bathroom light thing is a problem.
If you can't touch that switch and you leave the lights on all day, you're still walking into the room. So, you're still using the electric light.
Same as with the elevator that stops on every floor, you're still using it.

If I was born a Jew, I'd push that button and I'd flip that switch.
Not easy being a Jew.

You don't comprehend this issue properly. Walking into the light isn't considered as "melacha" (which roughly means work). Fortunately, using the bathroom isn't forbidden on the shabbat and so is breathing.

Take it easy, he's not Jewish.

[Zelhar]

I think the bathroom light thing is a problem.
If you can't touch that switch and you leave the lights on all day, you're still walking into the room. So, you're still using the electric light.
Same as with the elevator that stops on every floor, you're still using it.

If I was born a Jew, I'd push that button and I'd flip that switch.
Not easy being a Jew.

You don't comprehend this issue properly. Walking into the light isn't considered as "melacha" (which roughly means work). Fortunately, using the bathroom isn't forbidden on the shabbat and so is breathing.

Take it easy, he's not Jewish .

But I am easy.

[Rubystars]

I thought the prohibition on electricity had to do with lighting a fire. So basically if the bathroom light is already on then they're not lighting a fire. Did I get that wrong or right?

[The One and Only Mo]

I thought the prohibition on electricity had to do with lighting a fire. So basically if the bathroom light is already on then they're not lighting a fire. Did I get that wrong or right?

It's a lot of different things.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I think the bathroom light thing is a problem.
If you can't touch that switch and you leave the lights on all day, you're still walking into the room. So, you're still using the electric light.
Same as with the elevator that stops on every floor, you're still using it.

You just made up your own rules and said you disagree with them.   This is silly circular logic.

The problem is not "Use" of a light.   The sun is also a light and person has a right to USE that all day long on Shabbat.    The problem is one of forbidden type of work.   Flipping the switch to close or open a circuit falls in to the category of creative work that is forbidden on Shabbat.   Not your own invented rules that you don't like.   

If I was born a Jew, I'd push that button and I'd flip that switch.
Not easy being a Jew.

This has no place in this forum.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I think the bathroom light thing is a problem.
If you can't touch that switch and you leave the lights on all day, you're still walking into the room. So, you're still using the electric light.
Same as with the elevator that stops on every floor, you're still using it.

If I was born a Jew, I'd push that button and I'd flip that switch.
Not easy being a Jew.

You don't comprehend this issue properly. Walking into the light isn't considered as "melacha" (which roughly means work). Fortunately, using the bathroom isn't forbidden on the shabbat and so is breathing.

Take it easy, he's not Jewish.

Whether he's Jewish or not, he did say something illogical and rather silly, so it is right to correct him.

[angryChineseKahanist]

Correcting is fine. Perfectly OK. I don't claim to be Jewish and I don't claim to be a lawyer.

5000 years ago, they didn't have these things. Being I've never really did more than skim through some Jewish bible, I have a few more questions.
What was prohibited then? Someone already mentioned lighting a fire.
How did they figure electric appliances would not be allowed?

[The One and Only Mo]

Correcting is fine. Perfectly OK. I don't claim to be Jewish and I don't claim to be a lawyer.

5000 years ago, they didn't have these things. Being I've never really did more than skim through some Jewish bible, I have a few more questions.
What was prohibited then? Someone already mentioned lighting a fire.
How did they figure electric appliances would not be allowed?

One idea is that everything that would ever come up in the generations was taught. Another idea is that it's up for the Greatest Rabbis of the Generation to decide what's best for the people.