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Should Converts only date Converts?

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MassuhDGoodName:
Re:  "...When someone wants to be a Jewish he can't be Jewish because his mother isn't Jewish, he is staying the man he was and he keeps his nationality, he isn't called a Jew but a different name, a Ger Tzedek, the meaning of the word Ger is foreigner, and he doesn't do any convertion..."

Who's going to break the news to Mae Britt? :-*

She'll be devastated >:( -- for years everyone congratulated her for her "good fortune" in finding a "Jew" to marry! ;)

I, for one, don't want to be around, when she finds out that "the rich Jew" she thought she married just turns out to be some "shuck & jive" negro singing "Candyman" for rich white folks who bought a ticket to see him!  :o 8) :o 8) :o

newman:
Just to throw the above debate into more confusion:

JEIR (GER) DEFINITIONS:

STUDY THESE (ANCIENT) THREE JEIR DEFINITIONS:

JEIR: (non-Jew/resident-alien/stranger): Most Jeirim (eventually) converted (in olden times), which is why the term Jeir eventually blurred with "convert." However, when the Jeir converts, Orthodox halahah (law) then recognizes him or her as a Jew(ess). The Jew(ess) -- whom Orthodox halahah prohibits from even being reminded of their non-Jewish past -- is then no longer refered to as a Jeir(âh)--other than at important halahic times (i.e.: Marriage and Aliyah) where his/her status is must be known. This is important. A Jeir must be recognized by a Beit Din as learning - and applying as he learns - to become non-selectively Torah observant and integrating into the Jewish community, with the goal of converting (except when circumstances prohibit conversion).

As the widely acknowledged world's foremost expert in Hellenism, Louis H. Feldman, makes clear in his article in the Biblical Archaeology Review (86.09-10, p. 58ff), in both Biblical and Talmudic times, these non-Jews were unconverted proselytes to Judaism called Jeirim.

JEIR SEDDEQ: These were some of the many Jeirim (non-Jews) who, either because they feared circumcision or were married to a non-Jew who didn't want to convert, never converted.

Upon becoming conversant and responsible to the entirety of Torah like a Jew, the Jeir Toshav (see definition below) who didn't convert was then instead recognized as a Jeir Seddeq (who was still not a Jew). This category actually fell outside the category of the confirmed idolater who didn't convert. This term has taken on a totally different meaning in modern times. I believe I've heard it used to refer to righteous Jewish Proselytes. But this could not have possibly been it's original meaning--because they were not Jews and yet they were not idolaters either--because they never resolved themselves to be circumcised in their Jeir Toshav status. But they remain non-Jews.

JEIR TOSHAV: A Jeir toshav is a non-Jew candidate for conversion to Judaism, who had come before a legitimate Beit Din (i.e. in the legitimate Jewish community') and had been recognized as a non-Jew, with probationary status in the Jewish community, committed to learning, and keeping as they learn, Torah and halahah.

Non-Jews never came to Judaism already Torah-observant and satisfying all of the requirements for being converted. When non-Jews became interested in learning about Judaism they required a special status to distinguish them above the Benei Noah (non-Jews who followed the seven Noahide Laws). Upon coming before, and being recognized by the Beit Din as 1) keeping the Noakhide laws and 2) committed to learning and practicing the rest of Torah-observance, these postulants to Judaism were granted the status of Jeir toshav (fem. Jeirah toshevet). In the Talmudic discussion of the requisites for becoming a Jeir toshav, R. Meir is of the opinion that renunciation of idolatry is the only requisite. His colleagues made the acceptance of all seven Noahide laws requisite, and others made the acceptance of all the commandments of the Torah requisite, with the exception of the prohibition of eating non-kosher meat, for which gentiles were seen as being specifically exempted by Scripture.

The Relevant verses are:

"Who is a Jeir toshav? Whoever has resolved to convert and has renounced idolatry but who still has not actually converted. We allow him twelve months to do so. This applies to a Jeir toshav, but as for a gentile it is forbidden for him to dwell among Jews and to work on the Sabbath lest the Jews learn from his deeds" (Tannaitic text published 40 years ago called MRE, sec.20, 374. See P. Yeb 8.1 / Also referenced by the Saadyah Gaon ca. 1000) ** Side note: I have been unable to verify this source though.

"Who is a Jeir Toshav (resident alien)? – Whoever, in the presence of three rabbinical fellows (haberim), obligates himself not to worship idols. This is the opinion of R. Meir. But the sages say whoever obligates himself for the seven commandments for which the sons of Noah obligated themselves. Others say… who is a resident alien? Whoever eats non-kosher meat but who obligates himself to uphold all the commandments in the Torah except the prohibition of eating non-kosher meat." (B. Az 64b. See P. Yeb 8.1)

BEN NOAH vs JEIR:

JEIR: Lit. "resident-alien." In Medieval & Modern Hebrew: "proselyte." In Biblical through Talmudic Hebrew: a non-Jew neophyte


Note that the difference between a Jeir and a Ben Noah is as follows:
the Jeir makes a lifetime commitment to learn, and applies what he learns non-selectively AS he learns (ie: no picking and choosing) 
the Jeir goes before a legitimate beit din which thereafter recognizes him as a geir (or her as a geirâh) / CONVERT to Judaism.
By contrast, the BEN NOAH:
isn't necessarily committed to observe - non-selectively - anything beyond the Seven Noahide laws, and
hasn't been recognized by a legitimate beit din as having made such a commitment and, therefore, hasn't been recognized by a legitimate beit din as a Jeir.
Rambam/Maimonides: commandments concerning righteous converts
 
Postivive command #207:  To love the convert, as it is written "love ye the stranger" (Deuteronomy 10,19).
 
Negative command #252:  Not to wrong converts in speech, as it is written "and a stranger shalt thou not wrong" (Exodus 22,20).
 
Negative command #253:  Not to wrong the convert in buying and selling, as it is written "neither shalt thou oppress him" (Exodus 22,20).
 
Negative Command #256: Exodus 22:22 - Not afflicting the orphans and widows.
Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
 
Negative command #280:  Not to pervert the judgment of converts and orphans, as it is written "thou shalt not pervert the justice due to the stranger, or to the fatherless" (Deuteronomy 24,17).
COMMENT ON ABOVE:

I'm not entirely sure what the suggestion is that you quoted. If the suggestion is that someone who wanted to convert, to become a Ger Tzedek, was first required to undergo a test period as a Ger Toshav before he converted, I would say interesting and, if true, an excellent idea on the part of the tannaim and/or amoraim. If the suggestion is that originally a Ger Toshav was someone who HAD to convert after a period of time, I would say that this is a difficult idea which needs much more proof than offered. I'm not familiar with the MRE. However, the passages in TY Yevamot 8:1 and TB Avodah Zarah 65a seems to support the theory I quoted in an earlier post that a Ger Toshav can accept whichever mitzvot he wishes with a minimum, that is debated by tannaim. The passage in TY Yevamot 8:1 (44a) is difficult to read. The Ridbaz tries to infer from the Rambam's Mishneh Torah how the Rambam read the passage. According to the Ridbaz, all of the cases in that passage are of a Ger Toshav who accepted different levels of mitzvah observance but DID NOT accept to be circumcised. Even if the passage can be read simply (I'm not sure that it can) and a Ger Toshav can accept all of the mitzvot, that still does not equate him with a Ger Tzedek. A Ger Tzedek has the intent to become a Jew and join the Jewish people and immerses in a mikvah for that purpose. A Ger Toshav does not have that intent and therefore remains a gentile. The passage in TB A"Z 65a quotes a tannaitic source who says that a Ger Toshav who is not circumcised within 12 months is considered to be a regular gentile i.e. he loses his status of Ger Toshav. An amora then explains that this is referring to a Ger Toshav who accepted to circumcize himself. In other words, if a Ger Toshav does not fulfill the conditions of his acceptance then his acceptance is nullified. From neither sources do I see any proof for the suggestion that a Ger Toshav is a Ger Tzedek-in-training. Gil Student

Shlomo:
Wow, newman! Ya... let's see more of that.

newman:

--- Quote from: jeffguy on July 21, 2007, 11:18:49 PM ---Wow, newman! Ya... let's see more of that.

--- End quote ---

 :laugh: :laugh:

I didn't write it!..........It's one of many downloadable differing opinions.

PS: Someone better get a Sanhedrin that everyone can agree on up and running or nobody will know if their on foot or horseback.

takebackourtemple:
   To be a convert to Judaism someone has to convert with the true intention of being a Jew and accepting the Torah. If someone converts soley for a different reason such as marriage, they are not really Jewish. If someone truly converts to Judaism, they should be allowed to marry anyone who is Jewish. If someone converts just so they can marry a Jew, it is a different story.

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