Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Shalom
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on November 30, 2009, 05:46:38 PM ---Dan,
I believe I can 'shed some light' on this topic...
First, the light created on the first day is not sunlight or any other kind of light which we know of today. The light created on the first day we call the Supernal light, the Kabbalistic light which was put away shortly after it was created to be saved for the righteous on the day of judgement. If this light is not sun-light or any other kind of light which we know, it cannot be the light which sustained the plants.
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"Kabbalistic light?" Let's not invent things wholecloth here. I know what idea you refer to, it's in Rashi on Chumash and it has nothing to do with "kabalistic light."
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
You see Dr. Dan/Dan Ben Noah, how the mystic approach has to bend around into pretzels and do mental gymnastics in order to try to take these pesukim literally. But if we look into the rishonim who preceded the onslaught of mysticism that coincided with popularization of kabalah and came to dominate Jewish thought, we see that they had rational questions and rational solutions to these issues. According to the Rambam, day is not a day. It's not literal. There is ample support in chazal that we do not take the descriptions of maaseh bereshith literally, in fact we cannot, because by definition it is too complex for man to grasp.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on December 01, 2009, 06:28:09 AM ---
--- Quote from: muman613 on November 30, 2009, 05:46:38 PM ---Dan,
I believe I can 'shed some light' on this topic...
First, the light created on the first day is not sunlight or any other kind of light which we know of today. The light created on the first day we call the Supernal light, the Kabbalistic light which was put away shortly after it was created to be saved for the righteous on the day of judgement. If this light is not sun-light or any other kind of light which we know, it cannot be the light which sustained the plants.
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"Kabbalistic light?" Let's not invent things wholecloth here. I know what idea you refer to, it's in Rashi on Chumash and it has nothing to do with "kabalistic light."
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Why do you suggest that I am inventing something? There is very much written about this light. You know about "Ohr Ein Sof"? The Infinite light of creation...
But aside from that... You suggest that anyone who looks to Torah must totally ignore the first few Parashas because you think it is too complex? I dont think that is a good way to approach the Torah. In my original responses I provided a link which discusses the Rambam which you refer to.
Also you could have tried to answer the original question... How could plants have survived for a day, from the third to the fourth day, without the light of the sun? That is a simple question.... And it can only be explained by using the deeper understanding, the Sod....
More references:
http://www.inner.org/worlds/worlds.htm
--- Quote ---http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/361884/jewish/Tzimtzum.htm
We can now explain why G-d first revealed the Infinite Light and why only then through a process of Tzimtzum revealed the Finite Light. The purpose of creation is Dirah BeTachtonim (a dwelling place for G-d in the lower world). In order to fulfill this purpose, two things were necessary: the creation of a lower world and the ability of the lower world to be absorbed within the Divine. Initially, G-d revealed the Or Ein Sof; the transcendent Light of Sovev Kol Almin . Tzimtzum revealed Memale Kol Almin. Since the latter stems from a pre- Tzimtzum Light, it always has a desire and an ability to be nullified in its source. Simply put, G-d wants a person to live within this world and be above it at the same time. Being within is Memale Kol Almin, while staying above is Sovev Kol Almin. In the mundane activities of business pursuits, eating, etc., one should “know G-d in all their ways.” In spiritual activities, one stands above the creation when praying or learning Torah. The purpose of creation is the fusion of the two. This is achieved only through a total “nullification” (Bittul) to Atzmut; to G-d Himself in fulfillment of His desire in creation.
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http://www.chabad.org/parshah/torahreading_cdo/AID/7781/showrashi/true
http://www.jewishmag.com/1mag/mystic/mystic.htm
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Radiation of Divine Influx
In Kabbalistic , the unknowable G-d radiates an Infinite Light, the Or Ein Sof, transcending yet subsuming all of existence, spiritual and physical, potential and actual. Though it is beyond ability to grasp, this Light is reflected in all that is holy. It is reflected in Divine attributes which give rise to creation, in the impartiality of Divine law, and in the kindness which G-d extends to each individual creature. It is reflected in the objective caring of the soul, and in its resolve to do good. It is the ultimate good, the ultimate purpose, and all that matters.
Kabbala describes the process of reflections which gave rise to creation. There are different levels of reality, with varying abilities to grasp even a reflection of the Or Ein Sof. Mind, for example, is capable of objectivity, but emotions are not. However, a reflection of the mind's objectivity can be expressed through emotions. If one loves what is objectively good and fears what is objectively bad, these emotions reflect the mind's state, which ultimately connects them to the Or Ein Sof. Actions are still less capable of objectivity, but when actions reflect emotion or attitudes grounded in the objective perceptions of the soul, the body and faculties leading to those actions connect to the Or Ein Sof.
Differences between lofty levels of soul and the mundane faculties only regard their level of grasping the reflection of Or Ein Sof. The significance of a good deed, though it is a mere physical act, often far surpasses profound insights by exalted levels of soul.
Thus, by radiating and re-radiating progressive reflections of the Infinite Light, G-d did a great kindness to the creation. Although insignificant by itself, each creature can come to really matter, to have true significance, by expressing something of the Or Ein Sof.
Attitudes flowing out of transcendent objectivity reflecting the Infinite Light are called ethics. As experience confirms, though we are free to act morally or not, ethically, we are not free; we are obligated to do what is right. True to this, Torah presents ethical attitudes as imperatives: the commandments. Experientially, the main differences between our ethical sense and the commandments is that our moral sense is general and intuitive, whereas the commandments are explicit, and not always intuitive. According to Kabbala, though, explicitness only makes conscious what is implicit in the Infinite Light, and lacking intuitive understanding of a commandment merely signifies spiritual insensitivity in that area.
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muman613:
--- Quote from: Dan ben Noah on December 01, 2009, 03:41:10 PM ---Muman, the Kabbalistic interpretation is just making it more and more ridiculous. So now when it says "there was evening and morning the first day" it really means "there was lack of godliness and godliness the first day"?
Also, KWR-BT, it is feasible that G-d could create light without a sun or any celestial bodies, so I still have no problem with the literal interpretation that the light was created first. Saying that G-d must create the sun before light weakens G-d. If it is supposed to be symbolic, then fine, but there are still no problems with the literal interpretation without resorting to Kabbalah.
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No, did you read the Rashi? It is clear that the light was put away for the righteous... And day and night is a way of separating the two... If you look at the scripture you realize that every day of creation is a process of seperation, light and dark, water and land, living and dead, etc. etc....
I think you are looking at the question in your own limited way.... There is no question according to Jewish sources that the light created on the first day was NOT the light we know which comes from the sun... It was certainly the Infinite light of Hashem which would overload the physical world. Find me a Jewish source which contradicts what I am saying...
I will bring more sources in the hopes you will learn.... Of course you must understand from the Jewish perspective that the entire creation, of the light, the land, the lives, the stars, the planets, the universe was to provide a world for the Human he created... The entire world was created for One man... If you understand this concept it seems everything else falls into place.
http://www.shemayisrael.com/Parasha/kahn/archives/tazria63.htm
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Man created last
Why was man created last, after all the rest of creation? Our sages relate (Sanhedrin 38a) that man was created on the Friday, the last day of creation, just before Shabbos. They offer four reasons why man was created at this time: (1) to disprove the non-believers who argue that man assisted G’d in the creation process; if man was not created until the end how could he possibly be one of the original partners in creation; (2) the arrogant among us are reminded that even the tiniest insect was created before any human (3) as soon as man was created he immediately could fulfill the mitzvot of Shabbos; (4) everything was created for man to use for his benefit, like the King who builds a palace and makes preparation for a feast, and only then invites his guests to enter for their enjoyment.
Everything for man
Everything was created by G’d for man to use. But G’d also warned man to use it for his benefit and not to destroy it. Dynamite, for example, can be used to help mankind and enhance our lives by blasting holes through mountains to make tunnels for transportation, or it can be used to produce weapons of mass destruction and destroy life. Basically, the same applies to every new technological and scientific invention and development.
Everything for me
Our sages tell us (Sanhedrin 37a) that every person is obligated to say, “The world was created for me.” Rashi explains that the correct attitude should be to think that if I am so important, and the whole world was created for me, then how could I think of doing even one transgression. This attitude brings us to stop in our tracks whenever we have a choice to make. However, the arrogant may say that if the whole world was created for me, then I expect everyone and everything to serve my needs. Just like the child who expects every wish to be fulfilled, the arrogant expect that their needs will be treated with priority over everything else.
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This is why it is believed that the plants were created but did not grow till man was created. Because Hashem wanted to create a world where Man is in need of Heavenly assistance and must daven...
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/173,18759/On-the-1st-day-G-d-said-Let-there-be-light-but-the-sun-wasnt-created-until-the-fourth-day.html
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On the 1st day G-d said "Let there be light"... but the sun wasn't created until the fourth day?
The Talmud (Chagigah 12a) gives two explanations for this apparent problem:
1. The light which G-d created on the first day wasn't the light of the sun. Rather this was a spiritual light which would allow a person to see "from one end of the world to the other." G-d did not want evil people using this light so He hid it in the Torah. Righteous people who study the Torah can access this Divine light, and it will be available to everyone in the Messianic Era.
2. G-d created the sun and moon on the first day, but set them into their orbit on the fourth day. In fact, everything was created on the first day, G-d only developed and placed everything in their proper places in the subsequent days.
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Sefardic Panther:
Did'nt nature work differently before the mabool?
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