Don’t Be Weird Grow A Beard!!!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I am not arguing with you KWRBT... Some people have assigned different weights to different mitvot... You must agree that there is a mitzvah to not 'round the corners of the head', you have said this yourself... So you just don't interpret this command to mean that you should let your peyot grow... Maybe this is because some rabbis don't consider the importance of some mitzvahs and elevate the status of other mitzvahs.

Muman. Please cease this sheker.  Your amount of cognitive dissonance is absolutely mindboggling.   Your childish display in this thread is just getting worse and worse.    There is no "downplaying" of any mitzvah here.   Because how could they down play it?   IT IS EXPLICITLY WRITTEN IN THE CHUMASH AS A NEGATIVE COMMANDMENT.   No one is ignoring this mitzvah.  On the contrary, the argument is about the PARAMETERS for fulfilling the mitzvah.   Did the Chatham Sofer say that this mitzvah is "not important" CHaS VESHALOM!?   No.   He said that there is no source for the chasidic custom with which they fulfill this mitzvah.   He said that the halacha, the Jewish law, of how to fulfill the mitzvah, requires something much different (less) than what they do.  Granted that what they do is certainly permitted and also fits the bill.  But it is not required.   You need to get over the fact that the chassidic 'stringency' or 'beautification' of this mitzvah is NOT what is required to fulfill it.  And I'm sorry if someone misled you by giving you that impression.   But please cease the distortions.   

Many fine Jews wear chassidic style payoth.  And many fine Jews (religious, even very learned rabbis) do NOT.   And those fine Jews that do NOT sport the chassidic style payoth are loved no less by Hashem, and fulfill their halachic requirement in that mitzvah no less.

Should I now post picture collages of Jews throughout history who did not have payoth?  How about the talmidei chachamim of Germany and other places in Europe in the 1800's and 1900's?   Would that be constructive?  No, that would be silly and pointless.   But I have seen many such pictures just so you know!

This is not about promoting hairstyles.  Anyone is free to sport whatever they like as long as they do not violate the commandment.  Just don't tell me that your preferred haircut is the real deal, and anything else violates.   There is a halacha in Judaism!

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Who is this? He looks too much like this thing:

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I apologize for that question about Rav Kapach ZT'L. Please excuse my ignorance. I only became religious 2 years ago so there is still a lot I don’t know about many Rabbis. I obviously did’nt know that Rav Kapach was so brilliant all I knew was he rejected the Zohar (a position which still seems controversial to me). 

I appreciate this, and see that there was a misunderstanding.  I myself am not so learned either, believe me, so it's not about that in itself.  As long as we are willing to admit when we don't know and we don't make the mistake of assuming we know more than we actually do.   Let us just be careful about what we say of great talmidei chachamim who gave their all for klal Yisrael.   That is what I wished to stress.   It is a very serious thing.

And you are right that his position there is controversial.  At the same time, he kept his views on that issue largely to himself and tried to unite the Yemenite community (and all Jews) despite the very strong differences within pertaining to this issue (some factions of Yemenites strongly in favor of Zohar and others strongly against).  He was vocal with more pertinent matters, and his scholarship was focused on more pertinent matters than that machloketh.

I said Rabbi Amnon Yitzchak is the best because he brought so many Jews back to Judaism. But obviously he is not better than Rav Kapach.

And I was actually not saying Mori Michael Bar-Ron is greater than Rav Kapach I was only illustrating the fact that a lot of Temanim still have payot.

Fair enough but I still maintain that it has no bearing on the crux of this matter whether or not a lot of people (some of the teymanim, included) wear the simanim.  The fact is that not everyone does, even though they obviously hold of that mitzvah.   It must be there are different parameters of how to fulfill it that are equally acceptable.   It can be a matter of preference if one likes the style and wishes to beautify the mitzvah with the chassidic style payoth.  I just wanted to dispel the notion that one does not fulfill it halachically without doing so.   It must be clear that that is not required of every Jew to wear the long chassidic style payoth, even if it is a desirable/fashionable/positive-cultural/ etc option according to some opinions, including several in this forum, yourself included.

[Sefardic Panther]

I cannot understand why Natory Qarta gets there pictures taken with the leaders of the PLO and hamas even though a few years ago a subhuman savage from hamas detonated himself on a bus full of children from Meah Shearim.

Do they do this to annoy the hiloni government?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I think it's because hatred can be blinding.   They have a hateful philosophy and it causes them to hate the whole Jewish people because everyone is zionist in some way and therefore pasul in their eyes.

[Sefardic Panther]

But hamas wants to kill all Jews including them.

Have Natory Qarta ever lived in an arab country? If anyone said their opinions to a Jew who lived in an arab country they would get punched in the face.

I think Natory Qarta should consider living in an arab coutry for 6 months. That would soon give them a reality check!!!

[muman613]

I am not arguing with you KWRBT... Some people have assigned different weights to different mitvot... You must agree that there is a mitzvah to not 'round the corners of the head', you have said this yourself... So you just don't interpret this command to mean that you should let your peyot grow... Maybe this is because some rabbis don't consider the importance of some mitzvahs and elevate the status of other mitzvahs.

Muman. Please cease this sheker.  Your amount of cognitive dissonance is absolutely mindboggling.   Your childish display in this thread is just getting worse and worse.    There is no "downplaying" of any mitzvah here.   Because how could they down play it?   IT IS EXPLICITLY WRITTEN IN THE CHUMASH AS A NEGATIVE COMMANDMENT.   No one is ignoring this mitzvah.  On the contrary, the argument is about the PARAMETERS for fulfilling the mitzvah.   Did the Chatham Sofer say that this mitzvah is "not important" CHaS VESHALOM!?   No.   He said that there is no source for the chasidic custom with which they fulfill this mitzvah.   He said that the halacha, the Jewish law, of how to fulfill the mitzvah, requires something much different (less) than what they do.  Granted that what they do is certainly permitted and also fits the bill.  But it is not required.   You need to get over the fact that the chassidic 'stringency' or 'beautification' of this mitzvah is NOT what is required to fulfill it.  And I'm sorry if someone misled you by giving you that impression.   But please cease the distortions.   

Many fine Jews wear chassidic style payoth.  And many fine Jews (religious, even very learned rabbis) do NOT.   And those fine Jews that do NOT sport the chassidic style payoth are loved no less by Hashem, and fulfill their halachic requirement in that mitzvah no less.

Should I now post picture collages of Jews throughout history who did not have payoth?  How about the talmidei chachamim of Germany and other places in Europe in the 1800's and 1900's?   Would that be constructive?  No, that would be silly and pointless.   But I have seen many such pictures just so you know!

This is not about promoting hairstyles.  Anyone is free to sport whatever they like as long as they do not violate the commandment.  Just don't tell me that your preferred haircut is the real deal, and anything else violates.   There is a halacha in Judaism!

KWRBT,

Ok, so now I think I understand what you are saying and I must say that I agree. As I said before, I dont think that all Jewish men are required by Halacha to wear Peyot in the style which the Chassidic and Temeni Jews grow theirs... I have also read that some Rabbis poskin that it is OK to cut the peyos as long as it is not with a razor... But I think that this is considered a leniency by most...

My only point in posting many images of Jews with Peyot is that this hairstyle is a uniquely Jewish style and one which has its origins in the Torah. The reason I have not cut mine is so that my ancestery is such that my great grandparents wore peyot and as a result I have adopted the minhagim of my ancestors. I suggest every Jew keep the minhagim of their ancestors and this is what most Rabbis teach us to do.

There is no doubt that there are many pious and righteous Jews who don't have long peyot. I never intended to argue against that. I hope that it is clear what I have tried to say here... I support the Chassidic beliefs concerning this but I don't disparage those Jews who don't observe Chassidic minhagim.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                                     בס"ד

I cannot understand why Natory Qarta gets there pictures taken with the leaders of the PLO and hamas even though a few years ago a subhuman savage from hamas detonated himself on a bus full of children from Meah Shearim.

Do they do this to annoy the hiloni government?

Not all of them are like this. They're the "religious" form of self-hating Jews.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

But hamas wants to kill all Jews including them.

Have Natory Qarta ever lived in an arab country? If anyone said their opinions to a Jew who lived in an arab country they would get punched in the face.

I think Natory Qarta should consider living in an arab coutry for 6 months. That would soon give them a reality check!!!

The founders of their sect lived in Eretz Yisrael with Arabs, I believe in part of Jerusalem.  Of course, things are different with a foreign British ruler keeping order, but even then things weren't pretty with Arabs.  (Consider Hevron, etc).   My take on it is that it seems their leaders were a bit naive and when things got tough due to the warfare (and pre 1948 sometimes retaliations from the british) they wanted to point the finger and blame something because their personal families felt comfortable for a few generations (possibly even "good standing" with the Arabs because they played the dhimmi role well) and these events upset their harmony and their personal comfort was encroached upon.  Their "normal lives" now included hardship and turmoil, as it did for all the Jews there in that period.  And the people in Jerusalem certainly faced considerable hardships in that period due to the circumstances, which of course if the "zionists" had the means to alleviate they obviously wanted to and tried to.  This sect (one or two rabbis?) pointed the finger at other Jews who dared to see things differently and do things differently, who dared to consider something outside of their own arba amot, and the rest is history.   They stuck to the original views like a dogma, unflinching no matter how much reality changes.   So there can be 10 times hamas (G-d forbid) and they will still make the same senseless claims in their blind hatred and the way they dogamatized some of the hashkafic views of their early sect leaders.   It became a new Torah for them.   "We were always at peace with the Arabs."   Completely untrue, but their one or two leaders said that about their own respective families how they personally interacted with arabs over a few generations, and so they take that statement and make it into a universal truth about Jews and Judaism all thru history in all places even tho nothing is father from the truth and it is ahistorical.   So too with other stupid ideas.

[muman613]

                                                                     בס"ד

I cannot understand why Natory Qarta gets there pictures taken with the leaders of the PLO and hamas even though a few years ago a subhuman savage from hamas detonated himself on a bus full of children from Meah Shearim.

Do they do this to annoy the hiloni government?

Not all of them are like this. They're the "religious" form of self-hating Jews.

Are you so sure? There is a religious reason that the NK is anti-Zionist... I have looked into their reasoning and it is not self-hatred, according to what I learned. Their problem is that they don't think that Jews can occupy the land without Hashem first giving us permission through the nations of the world. As it is written in Torah that if the Jews don't keep Torah that the land will vomit them out... That for Jews to fight to stay in the land when they are exiled, like the time after the golden calf incident in the midbar, they will be defeated by their inferior enemies. All those Jews who tried to go into the promised land from the midbar, against Moses command, died trying to enter the land...

Of course I don't agree with what NK does and I am not making any excuse.... But to simply call them self-hating is a very gross oversimplification of the reason NK is anti-zionist.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                                    בס"ד

                                                                     בס"ד

I cannot understand why Natory Qarta gets there pictures taken with the leaders of the PLO and hamas even though a few years ago a subhuman savage from hamas detonated himself on a bus full of children from Meah Shearim.

Do they do this to annoy the hiloni government?

Not all of them are like this. They're the "religious" form of self-hating Jews.

Are you so sure? There is a religious reason that the NK is anti-Zionist... I have looked into their reasoning and it is not self-hatred, according to what I learned. Their problem is that they don't think that Jews can occupy the land without Hashem first giving us permission through the nations of the world. As it is written in Torah that if the Jews don't keep Torah that the land will vomit them out... That for Jews to fight to stay in the land when they are exiled, like the time after the golden calf incident in the midbar, they will be defeated by their inferior enemies. All those Jews who tried to go into the promised land from the midbar, against Moses command, died trying to enter the land...

Of course I don't agree with what NK does and I am not making any excuse.... But to simply call them self-hating is a very gross oversimplification of the reason NK is anti-zionist.

I wasn't talking about NK as a group. I was talking about these specific people who literally betray the Jewish people and HaShem, support the Arab muderers, etc (like those who are pictured). There is a Halachic debate, that's true (you already know on what side I am), but that does NOT justify the support for murder of fellow Jews, and support the desecration of the Name of Heaven, ceou tout.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Muman,

The Satmar chassidim are the paragon of anti-zionism and even the Satmar do not find halachic justification for the insanity of the Naturei Karta and even the Satmar excommunicated the Naturei Karta.   I cannot see any room to justify anything an NK does or says.   For crying out loud, the NK's go on national tv wearing the PLO flag.   These are evil traitors whom we pray for their destruction 3 times every day.

[muman613]

Muman,

The Satmar chassidim are the paragon of anti-zionism and even the Satmar do not find halachic justification for the insanity of the Naturei Karta and even the Satmar excommunicated the Naturei Karta.   I cannot see any room to justify anything an NK does or says.   For crying out loud, the NK's go on national tv wearing the PLO flag.   These are evil traitors whom we pray for their destruction 3 times every day.

Did I bring up Satmar? I didn't intend to... And the closest I have come to NK is Satmar, but there are certainly differences...

But if you read the wiki page for NK this is what it says that they believe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_karta
Neturei Karta stresses what is said in the mussaf Shemona Esrei of Yom Tov, that because of their sins the Jewish people went into exile from the Land of Israel ("umipnei chatoeinu golinu meiartzeinu"). Additionally, they maintain the view - basing it on the Babylonian Talmud [8] - that any form of forceful recapture of the Land of Israel is a violation of divine will. They believe that the restoration of the Land of Israel to the Jews should only happen with the coming of the Messiah, not by self-determination.

Neturei Karta believes that the exile of the Jews can only end with the arrival of the Messiah, and that human attempts to establish Jewish sovereignty over the Land of Israel are sinful. In Neturei Karta's view, Zionism is a presumptuous affront against G-d.

Rabbi Moshe Hirsch, a leader of the smaller and more radical group within Neturei Karta,[4] has endorsed Yasser Arafat, the Palestine Liberation Organization and later, the Palestinian Authority as the rightful rulers of the Land of Israel, which includes the modern-day State of Israel. Other Jewish groups, including anti-Zionist ones, have criticized this alignment, describing it as condoning or even abetting Palestinian political violence or using Palestinians as a tool for the destruction of Israel.[9][10][11]

The Neturei Karta synagogues follow the customs of the Gaon of Vilna, due to Neturei Karta's origin within the Lithuanian rather than Chasidic branch of ultra-Orthodox Judaism. Neturei Karta is not a Hasidic but a Litvish group, they are often mistaken for Hasidim because their style of dress (including a shtreimel on Shabbos) is very similar to that of Hasidim. This style of dress is not unique to Neturei Karta, but is also the style of other Jerusalem Litvaks, such as Rabbi Yosef Sholom Eliashiv and his followers. Furthermore, Shomer Emunim a Hasidic group but with a similar anti-Zionist ideology, is often bundled together with Neturei Karta. Typically, the Jerusalem Neturei Karta will keep the customs of the "Old Yishuv" of the city of Jerusalem even when living outside of Jerusalem or even when living abroad, as a demonstration of their love and connection to the Holy Land.

I OBVIOUSLY AM ZIONIST AND STAND FIRM AGAINST NK. I SIMPLY POINT OUT WHAT THEY SAY THEY BELIEVE. I HAVE REBUKED THEM NUMEROUS TIMES

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

No Muman, you did not bring up Satmar.  I did.

I did so for a reason.  If you read my post carefully you'll understand why.

It seems you attempted to justify the NK group because their supposed ideology has 'Torah basis.'  This cannot be further from the truth.

I brought the example of Satmar, whom I find misguided in their hashkafa, but whom are halachic Jews nonetheless, because Satmar EXCOMMUNICATED Naturei Karta.    This means that not even Satmar, staunch anti-zionists can find a grounds to justify Naturie Karta or its beliefs, and yet for some reason you try to do that here in this thread on the basis of "legitimate" antizionist hashkafa.    Do you not see a problem here?

[muman613]

No Muman, you did not bring up Satmar.  I did.

I did so for a reason.  If you read my post carefully you'll understand why.

It seems you attempted to justify the NK group because their supposed ideology has 'Torah basis.'  This cannot be further from the truth.

I brought the example of Satmar, whom I find misguided in their hashkafa, but whom are halachic Jews nonetheless, because Satmar EXCOMMUNICATED Naturei Karta.    This means that not even Satmar, staunch anti-zionists can find a grounds to justify Naturie Karta or its beliefs, and yet for some reason you try to do that here in this thread on the basis of "legitimate" antizionist hashkafa.    Do you not see a problem here?

I know Satmar Chassids and they are good people. I don't know NK and I hope to never know any one of them. I do not forgive them for their position. To me the Mitzvah "Do not stand idle as your brother bleeds" overrides the anti-state stance they take. Also the Torah gives us commandments "So that we may live", which is why we can violate even Shabbat in order to save a life. Ahavat Yisroel is another important mitzvah which even overrides saving a non-Jew. There are so many Torah reasons I abhor what NK does that I could go on and on with reasons NK is wrong.

But when we look at how rotten the state of Israel has become because of secular-zionism I sometimes wonder in my mind why Hashem has allowed this to happen. Secular Zionism is not good for the Jewish people, it leads to the problems we are seeing today in Israel, such as the Barak VS Har Bracha Yeshiva....

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

BTW Sephardic Panther, I do apologize if I was too harsh with you.  Of course you can't be expected to be an expert if you've been at learning for such a short time.  I am also no expert.   I think I just wanted to stress that this site would not become a hornet's nest of attacking rabbis for their hashkafot like some sites turn into (or like some people are in real life).   We can be civil in our disagreements and still accord respect for the chachamim and also for each other.    If you were offended by my remarks I apologize.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I know Satmar Chassids and they are good people. I don't know NK and I hope to never know any one of them. I do not forgive them for their position. To me the Mitzvah "Do not stand idle as your brother bleeds" overrides the anti-state stance they take. Also the Torah gives us commandments "So that we may live", which is why we can violate even Shabbat in order to save a life. Ahavat Yisroel is another important mitzvah which even overrides saving a non-Jew. There are so many Torah reasons I abhor what NK does that I could go on and on with reasons NK is wrong.

But when we look at how rotten the state of Israel has become because of secular-zionism I sometimes wonder in my mind why Hashem has allowed this to happen. Secular Zionism is not good for the Jewish people, it leads to the problems we are seeing today in Israel, such as the Barak VS Har Bracha Yeshiva....

And this is related to Naturei Karta how?   There is no relation, it sounds again like you are trying to make excuses for them.   Like I said, do not conflate anyone who is antizionist into one big group.   The Satmar are the epitome of antizionism and they excommunicated the naturei karta for being Arafat-loving traitors.   

Even though I personally dislike and disagree with so-called "antizionism" and even though I think it's woefully misguided, still, even that "Torah position" has boundaries, and NK clearly cross the line into traitor-ville.

[Sefardic Panther]

I was not offended at all by your remarks. You were right for telling me that Rav Yosef Kapach ZT’L was the best Temani Talmid Hakham in recent times. Everyone ought to know that and all Jews should appreciate all the work he has done which included restoring ancient versions of the Rambam’s works. I had no idea and I had him confused with his grandfather Rabbi Yihyah Kapach. It was actually him that was famous for publically rejecting the Zohar.

I made this topic on beards and payoth only to encourage the hairstyle and promote Toranic Yehudi culture. Payoth have actually become very popular with the Yehudi communities in Judea and Samaria because Baruch Goldstein (may Hashem avenge his blood) had payoth. I am not saying that every Jewish man must have them. I realize there are a lot of good Yehudi men who do not have payoth. I know the hairstyle is not a Halakhic requirement although I am still not sure on whether or not it goes back 4000 years.

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

I love my beard. And my haircut is Torah sanctioned.  These are both sources of joy for me.

It is not surprising Yemeni and Chassidic Jews have very similar hair styles.  Great minds think alike, and we all read Torah.

Not having to shave means more time to study Torah each day!