My mom's friend wants to convert me......

[The One and Only Mo]

You guys, we all know the differences between Christianity and Judaism.  There's no need to bash the Christians over the head about it. 

We, Jews, know the diff, but the Christians don't. THAT'S the point here, Lisa.

[Debbie Shafer]

This is shocking that a mom would say this to her child. It is not ok to be a homo.  Leviticus 18:22 says: Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Leviticus 20:13- If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman both of them have done what is destestable.  They must be put to death: their blood will be on their own heads.

Romans 1:24- Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.  They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator, who is forever praised. Amen.   Because of this God gave them over to shameful lusts.  Even their women exchanged natural relations for unatural ones.  In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.  Men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves due penalty for their perversion.

Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled.    And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. Sodom and Gomorah.

You can't get any clearer than this.

We just discussed this in a bible class, because many people were told to not be judgemental about gays.  The scriptures do not Lie!  Homosexuality is an abomination in God's eyes.

[The One and Only Mo]

This is shocking that a mom would say this to her child. It is not ok to be a homo.  Leviticus 18:22 says: Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Leviticus 20:13- If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman both of them have done what is destestable.  They must be put to death: their blood will be on their own heads.

Romans 1:24- Therefore G-d gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.  They exchanged the truth of G-d for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator, who is forever praised. Amen.   Because of this G-d gave them over to shameful lusts.  Even their women exchanged natural relations for unatural ones.  In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.  Men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves due penalty for their perversion.

Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled.    And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. Sodom and Gomorah.

You can't get any clearer than this.

We just discussed this in a bible class, because many people were told to not be judgemental about gays.  The scriptures do not Lie!  Homosexuality is an abomination in G-d's eyes.

My mom just told me what her gay friend said and we both laughed about it. Maybe you misread my initial post.

[Debbie Shafer]

Sorry, Didn't mean to offend anyone.  I just know there is alot of misconception out there about the gay lifestyle.  Man is given free will, how he uses it is up to him and choices will influence our futures dramatically.

[The One and Only Mo]

Sorry, Didn't mean to offend anyone.  I just know there is alot of misconception out there about the gay lifestyle.  Man is given free will, how he uses it is up to him and choices will influence our futures dramatically.

It's not about that, it's about you blaming my mom for something because you weren't clear in your understanding about this amusing story.

[muman613]

This is shocking that a mom would say this to her child. It is not ok to be a homo.  Leviticus 18:22 says: Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Leviticus 20:13- If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman both of them have done what is destestable.  They must be put to death: their blood will be on their own heads.

Romans 1:24- Therefore G-d gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.  They exchanged the truth of G-d for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator, who is forever praised. Amen.   Because of this G-d gave them over to shameful lusts.  Even their women exchanged natural relations for unatural ones.  In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.  Men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves due penalty for their perversion.

Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled.    And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. Sodom and Gomorah.

You can't get any clearer than this.

We just discussed this in a bible class, because many people were told to not be judgemental about gays.  The scriptures do not Lie!  Homosexuality is an abomination in G-d's eyes.

Debbie, you realize that Romans is not considered Scripture according to the Jewish Tanach.

The only thing which Torah prohibits is man on man sex... As long as a man doesnt physically sleep with another man it doesnt matter what they are attracted to... The act is the thing which the Torah clearly prohibits. I realize that Christianity goes farther and condemns anyone with attraction to the same sex as a sinner.... This is clearly not a Jewish belief.

I can bring you many proofs of this point. But I am not defending gay behaviour. It is just as much a sin to violate the Shabbat as it is to be gay... They both deserve the death penalty. Which is worse? Neither is worse, they are equally abominable to Hashem, though Torah only talks about man-on-man sex twice which the violation of Shabbat is mentioned many more times.

http://www.jewfaq.org/sex.htm
Homosexuality

Sexual relations between men are clearly forbidden by the Torah. (Lev. 18:22). Such acts are condemned in the strongest possible terms, as abhorrent. The only other sexual sin that is described in such strong terms is the sin of remarrying a woman you had divorced after she had been married to another man. (See Deut. 24:4). The sin of sexual relations between men is punishable by death (Lev. 20:13), as are the sins of adultery and incest.

It is important to note, however, that it is homosexual acts that are forbidden, not homosexual orientation. Judaism focuses on a person's actions rather than a person's desires. A man's desire to have sex with another man is not a sin, so long as he does not act upon that desire. In fact, it could be said that a man who feels such desires but does not act upon them is worthy of more merit in that regard than a man who does not feel such desires at all, just as one who refrains from pork because it is forbidden deserves more merit than one who refrains from pork because he doesn't like the taste.

I have seen some modern Orthodox sources suggest that if homosexuality is truly something hardwired in the brain, as most gay activists suggest, then a man who acts upon that desire is not morally responsible for his actions, but I am not sure how wide-spread that opinion is. In any case, it is not quite as liberal a position as some would have you believe: essentially, it is equivalent to saying that a kleptomaniac would not be held morally responsible for stealing.

Interestingly, female homosexual relations are not forbidden by the Torah. There is very little discussion of female homosexuality in the Talmud. The few sources that mention lesbian relations say that they do not disqualify a woman from certain privileges of the priesthood, because it is "merely licentiousness." There is a surprising lack of discussion of such issues as whether lesbianism would be grounds for divorcing a woman without her consent or without ketubah. Rambam asserted that lesbian practices are forbidden because it was a "practice of Egypt" and because it constituted rebelliousness.

http://www.ou.org/other/5764/samem64.htm

http://www.shemayisrael.com/isjudaism/laws.shtml

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                          בס"ד 

This is shocking that a mom would say this to her child. It is not ok to be a homo.  Leviticus 18:22 says: Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Leviticus 20:13- If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman both of them have done what is destestable.  They must be put to death: their blood will be on their own heads.

Romans 1:24- Therefore G-d gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.  They exchanged the truth of G-d for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator, who is forever praised. Amen.   Because of this G-d gave them over to shameful lusts.  Even their women exchanged natural relations for unatural ones.  In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.  Men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves due penalty for their perversion.

Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled.    And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. Sodom and Gomorah.

You can't get any clearer than this.

We just discussed this in a bible class, because many people were told to not be judgemental about gays.  The scriptures do not Lie!  Homosexuality is an abomination in G-d's eyes.

Debbie, you realize that Romans is not considered Scripture according to the Jewish Tanach.

The only thing which Torah prohibits is man on man sex... As long as a man doesnt physically sleep with another man it doesnt matter what they are attracted to... The act is the thing which the Torah clearly prohibits. I realize that Christianity goes farther and condemns anyone with attraction to the same sex as a sinner.... This is clearly not a Jewish belief.

I can bring you many proofs of this point. But I am not defending gay behaviour. It is just as much a sin to violate the Shabbat as it is to be gay... They both deserve the death penalty. Which is worse? Neither is worse, they are equally abominable to Hashem, though Torah only talks about man-on-man sex twice which the violation of Shabbat is mentioned many more times.

http://www.jewfaq.org/sex.htm
Homosexuality

Sexual relations between men are clearly forbidden by the Torah. (Lev. 18:22). Such acts are condemned in the strongest possible terms, as abhorrent. The only other sexual sin that is described in such strong terms is the sin of remarrying a woman you had divorced after she had been married to another man. (See Deut. 24:4). The sin of sexual relations between men is punishable by death (Lev. 20:13), as are the sins of adultery and incest.

It is important to note, however, that it is homosexual acts that are forbidden, not homosexual orientation. Judaism focuses on a person's actions rather than a person's desires. A man's desire to have sex with another man is not a sin, so long as he does not act upon that desire. In fact, it could be said that a man who feels such desires but does not act upon them is worthy of more merit in that regard than a man who does not feel such desires at all, just as one who refrains from pork because it is forbidden deserves more merit than one who refrains from pork because he doesn't like the taste.

I have seen some modern Orthodox sources suggest that if homosexuality is truly something hardwired in the brain, as most gay activists suggest, then a man who acts upon that desire is not morally responsible for his actions, but I am not sure how wide-spread that opinion is. In any case, it is not quite as liberal a position as some would have you believe: essentially, it is equivalent to saying that a kleptomaniac would not be held morally responsible for stealing.

Interestingly, female homosexual relations are not forbidden by the Torah. There is very little discussion of female homosexuality in the Talmud. The few sources that mention lesbian relations say that they do not disqualify a woman from certain privileges of the priesthood, because it is "merely licentiousness." There is a surprising lack of discussion of such issues as whether lesbianism would be grounds for divorcing a woman without her consent or without ketubah. Rambam asserted that lesbian practices are forbidden because it was a "practice of Egypt" and because it constituted rebelliousness.

I've just refuted these claims you posted in the Hebrew forum.
By choosing to be gay, even if you don't have man-on-man sex, you make enough sins anyway.
Btw, as much as I know the Rambam forbids Lesbism.

[muman613]

                                                          בס"ד 

This is shocking that a mom would say this to her child. It is not ok to be a homo.  Leviticus 18:22 says: Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Leviticus 20:13- If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman both of them have done what is destestable.  They must be put to death: their blood will be on their own heads.

Romans 1:24- Therefore G-d gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.  They exchanged the truth of G-d for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator, who is forever praised. Amen.   Because of this G-d gave them over to shameful lusts.  Even their women exchanged natural relations for unatural ones.  In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.  Men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves due penalty for their perversion.

Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled.    And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. Sodom and Gomorah.

You can't get any clearer than this.

We just discussed this in a bible class, because many people were told to not be judgemental about gays.  The scriptures do not Lie!  Homosexuality is an abomination in G-d's eyes.

Debbie, you realize that Romans is not considered Scripture according to the Jewish Tanach.

The only thing which Torah prohibits is man on man sex... As long as a man doesnt physically sleep with another man it doesnt matter what they are attracted to... The act is the thing which the Torah clearly prohibits. I realize that Christianity goes farther and condemns anyone with attraction to the same sex as a sinner.... This is clearly not a Jewish belief.

I can bring you many proofs of this point. But I am not defending gay behaviour. It is just as much a sin to violate the Shabbat as it is to be gay... They both deserve the death penalty. Which is worse? Neither is worse, they are equally abominable to Hashem, though Torah only talks about man-on-man sex twice which the violation of Shabbat is mentioned many more times.

http://www.jewfaq.org/sex.htm
Homosexuality

Sexual relations between men are clearly forbidden by the Torah. (Lev. 18:22). Such acts are condemned in the strongest possible terms, as abhorrent. The only other sexual sin that is described in such strong terms is the sin of remarrying a woman you had divorced after she had been married to another man. (See Deut. 24:4). The sin of sexual relations between men is punishable by death (Lev. 20:13), as are the sins of adultery and incest.

It is important to note, however, that it is homosexual acts that are forbidden, not homosexual orientation. Judaism focuses on a person's actions rather than a person's desires. A man's desire to have sex with another man is not a sin, so long as he does not act upon that desire. In fact, it could be said that a man who feels such desires but does not act upon them is worthy of more merit in that regard than a man who does not feel such desires at all, just as one who refrains from pork because it is forbidden deserves more merit than one who refrains from pork because he doesn't like the taste.

I have seen some modern Orthodox sources suggest that if homosexuality is truly something hardwired in the brain, as most gay activists suggest, then a man who acts upon that desire is not morally responsible for his actions, but I am not sure how wide-spread that opinion is. In any case, it is not quite as liberal a position as some would have you believe: essentially, it is equivalent to saying that a kleptomaniac would not be held morally responsible for stealing.

Interestingly, female homosexual relations are not forbidden by the Torah. There is very little discussion of female homosexuality in the Talmud. The few sources that mention lesbian relations say that they do not disqualify a woman from certain privileges of the priesthood, because it is "merely licentiousness." There is a surprising lack of discussion of such issues as whether lesbianism would be grounds for divorcing a woman without her consent or without ketubah. Rambam asserted that lesbian practices are forbidden because it was a "practice of Egypt" and because it constituted rebelliousness.

I've just refuted these claims you posted in the Hebrew forum.
By choosing to be gay, even if you don't have man-on-man sex, you make enough sins anyway.
Btw, as much as I know the Rambam forbids Lesbism.

Why don't you refute them on the english forum?

What mitzvah is violated by a man having attraction to another man? Why didn't the Torah or the sages expressly forbid such things? Can you bring me some sources?

Did you not see that what I quoted mentioned Rambams saying that lesbianism violates the mitzvah of not emulting the ways of the Mitzrayim?

Also would it also not be a sin for a Jew to secretly desire to eat a ham sandwich? I used to love Bacon and have abstained from it for over seven years. I also loved cheeseburgers and I have not eaten them in seven years... I guess my sins are never erased in your book..

Also why did you not want me to discuss Lamberts iniquity? Not to speak Lashon Hara?

[muman613]

The reason for my tolerance of the homosexual is because those who are gay today are influenced by the media and the culture which they are born into. I believe that many of them are unhappy in that lifestyle and hope for strength to overcome their unbounded lust which is given an outlet by the homosexual agenda. Although I say I am tolerant, I do not accept their lifestyle one bit.

I do not want them to spread their filth, and I have voted against gay marriage every time it is brought to election. I have been called a homophobe and other names because I do not condone the lifestyle....

But halachicly I look at their problem as a test which they are failing... With strength from Hashem they may be able to overcome the lust and desire which lead them to destruction.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                          בס"ד

                                                          בס"ד 

This is shocking that a mom would say this to her child. It is not ok to be a homo.  Leviticus 18:22 says: Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Leviticus 20:13- If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman both of them have done what is destestable.  They must be put to death: their blood will be on their own heads.

Romans 1:24- Therefore G-d gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.  They exchanged the truth of G-d for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator, who is forever praised. Amen.   Because of this G-d gave them over to shameful lusts.  Even their women exchanged natural relations for unatural ones.  In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.  Men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves due penalty for their perversion.

Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled.    And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. Sodom and Gomorah.

You can't get any clearer than this.

We just discussed this in a bible class, because many people were told to not be judgemental about gays.  The scriptures do not Lie!  Homosexuality is an abomination in G-d's eyes.

Debbie, you realize that Romans is not considered Scripture according to the Jewish Tanach.

The only thing which Torah prohibits is man on man sex... As long as a man doesnt physically sleep with another man it doesnt matter what they are attracted to... The act is the thing which the Torah clearly prohibits. I realize that Christianity goes farther and condemns anyone with attraction to the same sex as a sinner.... This is clearly not a Jewish belief.

I can bring you many proofs of this point. But I am not defending gay behaviour. It is just as much a sin to violate the Shabbat as it is to be gay... They both deserve the death penalty. Which is worse? Neither is worse, they are equally abominable to Hashem, though Torah only talks about man-on-man sex twice which the violation of Shabbat is mentioned many more times.

http://www.jewfaq.org/sex.htm
Homosexuality

Sexual relations between men are clearly forbidden by the Torah. (Lev. 18:22). Such acts are condemned in the strongest possible terms, as abhorrent. The only other sexual sin that is described in such strong terms is the sin of remarrying a woman you had divorced after she had been married to another man. (See Deut. 24:4). The sin of sexual relations between men is punishable by death (Lev. 20:13), as are the sins of adultery and incest.

It is important to note, however, that it is homosexual acts that are forbidden, not homosexual orientation. Judaism focuses on a person's actions rather than a person's desires. A man's desire to have sex with another man is not a sin, so long as he does not act upon that desire. In fact, it could be said that a man who feels such desires but does not act upon them is worthy of more merit in that regard than a man who does not feel such desires at all, just as one who refrains from pork because it is forbidden deserves more merit than one who refrains from pork because he doesn't like the taste.

I have seen some modern Orthodox sources suggest that if homosexuality is truly something hardwired in the brain, as most gay activists suggest, then a man who acts upon that desire is not morally responsible for his actions, but I am not sure how wide-spread that opinion is. In any case, it is not quite as liberal a position as some would have you believe: essentially, it is equivalent to saying that a kleptomaniac would not be held morally responsible for stealing.

Interestingly, female homosexual relations are not forbidden by the Torah. There is very little discussion of female homosexuality in the Talmud. The few sources that mention lesbian relations say that they do not disqualify a woman from certain privileges of the priesthood, because it is "merely licentiousness." There is a surprising lack of discussion of such issues as whether lesbianism would be grounds for divorcing a woman without her consent or without ketubah. Rambam asserted that lesbian practices are forbidden because it was a "practice of Egypt" and because it constituted rebelliousness.

I've just refuted these claims you posted in the Hebrew forum.
By choosing to be gay, even if you don't have man-on-man sex, you make enough sins anyway.
Btw, as much as I know the Rambam forbids Lesbism.

Why don't you refute them on the english forum?

What mitzvah is violated by a man having attraction to another man? Why didn't the Torah or the sages expressly forbid such things? Can you bring me some sources?

Did you not see that what I quoted mentioned Rambams saying that lesbianism violates the mitzvah of not emulting the ways of the Mitzrayim?

Also would it also not be a sin for a Jew to secretly desire to eat a ham sandwich? I used to love Bacon and have abstained from it for over seven years. I also loved cheeseburgers and I have not eaten them in seven years... I guess my sins are never erased in your book..

Also why did you not want me to discuss Lamberts iniquity? Not to speak Lashon Hara?

I'll translate:

א.) רוב הסיכויים שלא תתחתן ואם תתחתן - לא תהנה לא אתה ולא אשתך מהמצוות וההלכות הנוגעות לנישואין בדגש על אלו הנוגעים למין (כמו חלק מהלכות עונג שבת ומצוות עונה).
ב.) אם תתחתן, מה עם פרו ורבו? 
ג.)  וכו'.

1.) Most chances homosexual man wouldn't get married, and it he does get married, he and his wife alike wouldn't enjoy the Mitzvoht and Halachot regarding to marriage (like Oneg Shabbat, Mitzvaht Ona, etc).
2.) If he does get married, what about the Pru U'Rbu Mitzvah?
3.) Etc.
Only examples.

About the Ramambar quote, I didn't see it, sorry.

That's a good point and it actually strengthens mine, desiring to sin knowing that it's BAD is a sin, just like desiring to murder and you got the chance to not want to do that, and you keep willing to do so, that's a sin. 

Lambert is a Tinok She'Nishbah, I don't think he knows a clue about Torah and rebuking him here would do nothing but speaking Leshon He'Rah, he doesn't even know who we are.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                               בס"ד 

The reason for my tolerance of the homosexual is because those who are gay today are influenced by the media and the culture which they are born into. I believe that many of them are unhappy in that lifestyle and hope for strength to overcome their unbounded lust which is given an outlet by the homosexual agenda. Although I say I am tolerant, I do not accept their lifestyle one bit.

I do not want them to spread their filth, and I have voted against gay marriage every time it is brought to election. I have been called a homophobe and other names because I do not condone the lifestyle....

But halachicly I look at their problem as a test which they are failing... With strength from Hashem they may be able to overcome the lust and desire which lead them to destruction.

They are Tinokoht She'Nishbu, "ולא תשנא את אחיך בלבבך, הוכח תוכח את רעיך ולא תישא עליו חטא".

[muman613]

<snip>

I'll translate:

א.) רוב הסיכויים שלא תתחתן ואם תתחתן - לא תהנה לא אתה ולא אשתך מהמצוות וההלכות הנוגעות לנישואין בדגש על אלו הנוגעים למין (כמו חלק מהלכות עונג שבת ומצוות עונה).
ב.) אם תתחתן, מה עם פרו ורבו? 
ג.)  וכו'.

1.) Most chances homosexual man wouldn't get married, and it he does get married, he and his wife alike wouldn't enjoy the Mitzvoht and Halachot regarding to marriage (like Oneg Shabbat, Mitzvaht Ona, etc).
2.) If he does get married, what about the Pru U'Rbu Mitzvah?
3.) Etc.
Only examples.

About the Ramambar quote, I didn't see it, sorry.

That's a good point and it actually strengthens mine, desiring to sin knowing that it's BAD is a sin, just like desiring to murder and you got the chance to not want to do that, and you keep willing to do so, that's a sin. 

Lambert is a Tinok She'Nishbah, I don't think he knows a clue about Torah and rebuking him here would do nothing but speaking Leshon He'Rah, he doesn't even know who we are.

Shalom Ron,

What you say about homosexual relationships also happen in heterosexual relationships. Here in the states there is a high rate of divorce even in the Jewish community. Many times there are problems such as when to have children, how often to have marital relations, levels of observance, etc...

But I do understand what you are saying. Marriage between man and woman is not easy and it is a challenge for all..

[The One and Only Mo]

                                                          בס"ד

                                                          בס"ד 

This is shocking that a mom would say this to her child. It is not ok to be a homo.  Leviticus 18:22 says: Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Leviticus 20:13- If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman both of them have done what is destestable.  They must be put to death: their blood will be on their own heads.

Romans 1:24- Therefore G-d gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.  They exchanged the truth of G-d for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator, who is forever praised. Amen.   Because of this G-d gave them over to shameful lusts.  Even their women exchanged natural relations for unatural ones.  In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.  Men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves due penalty for their perversion.

Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled.    And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. Sodom and Gomorah.

You can't get any clearer than this.

We just discussed this in a bible class, because many people were told to not be judgemental about gays.  The scriptures do not Lie!  Homosexuality is an abomination in G-d's eyes.

Debbie, you realize that Romans is not considered Scripture according to the Jewish Tanach.

The only thing which Torah prohibits is man on man sex... As long as a man doesnt physically sleep with another man it doesnt matter what they are attracted to... The act is the thing which the Torah clearly prohibits. I realize that Christianity goes farther and condemns anyone with attraction to the same sex as a sinner.... This is clearly not a Jewish belief.

I can bring you many proofs of this point. But I am not defending gay behaviour. It is just as much a sin to violate the Shabbat as it is to be gay... They both deserve the death penalty. Which is worse? Neither is worse, they are equally abominable to Hashem, though Torah only talks about man-on-man sex twice which the violation of Shabbat is mentioned many more times.

http://www.jewfaq.org/sex.htm
Homosexuality

Sexual relations between men are clearly forbidden by the Torah. (Lev. 18:22). Such acts are condemned in the strongest possible terms, as abhorrent. The only other sexual sin that is described in such strong terms is the sin of remarrying a woman you had divorced after she had been married to another man. (See Deut. 24:4). The sin of sexual relations between men is punishable by death (Lev. 20:13), as are the sins of adultery and incest.

It is important to note, however, that it is homosexual acts that are forbidden, not homosexual orientation. Judaism focuses on a person's actions rather than a person's desires. A man's desire to have sex with another man is not a sin, so long as he does not act upon that desire. In fact, it could be said that a man who feels such desires but does not act upon them is worthy of more merit in that regard than a man who does not feel such desires at all, just as one who refrains from pork because it is forbidden deserves more merit than one who refrains from pork because he doesn't like the taste.

I have seen some modern Orthodox sources suggest that if homosexuality is truly something hardwired in the brain, as most gay activists suggest, then a man who acts upon that desire is not morally responsible for his actions, but I am not sure how wide-spread that opinion is. In any case, it is not quite as liberal a position as some would have you believe: essentially, it is equivalent to saying that a kleptomaniac would not be held morally responsible for stealing.

Interestingly, female homosexual relations are not forbidden by the Torah. There is very little discussion of female homosexuality in the Talmud. The few sources that mention lesbian relations say that they do not disqualify a woman from certain privileges of the priesthood, because it is "merely licentiousness." There is a surprising lack of discussion of such issues as whether lesbianism would be grounds for divorcing a woman without her consent or without ketubah. Rambam asserted that lesbian practices are forbidden because it was a "practice of Egypt" and because it constituted rebelliousness.

I've just refuted these claims you posted in the Hebrew forum.
By choosing to be gay, even if you don't have man-on-man sex, you make enough sins anyway.
Btw, as much as I know the Rambam forbids Lesbism.

Why don't you refute them on the english forum?

What mitzvah is violated by a man having attraction to another man? Why didn't the Torah or the sages expressly forbid such things? Can you bring me some sources?

Did you not see that what I quoted mentioned Rambams saying that lesbianism violates the mitzvah of not emulting the ways of the Mitzrayim?

Also would it also not be a sin for a Jew to secretly desire to eat a ham sandwich? I used to love Bacon and have abstained from it for over seven years. I also loved cheeseburgers and I have not eaten them in seven years... I guess my sins are never erased in your book..

Also why did you not want me to discuss Lamberts iniquity? Not to speak Lashon Hara?

I'll translate:

א.) רוב הסיכויים שלא תתחתן ואם תתחתן - לא תהנה לא אתה ולא אשתך מהמצוות וההלכות הנוגעות לנישואין בדגש על אלו הנוגעים למין (כמו חלק מהלכות עונג שבת ומצוות עונה).
ב.) אם תתחתן, מה עם פרו ורבו? 
ג.)  וכו'.

1.) Most chances homosexual man wouldn't get married, and it he does get married, he and his wife alike wouldn't enjoy the Mitzvoht and Halachot regarding to marriage (like Oneg Shabbat, Mitzvaht Ona, etc).
2.) If he does get married, what about the Pru U'Rbu Mitzvah?
3.) Etc.
Only examples.

About the Ramambar quote, I didn't see it, sorry.

That's a good point and it actually strengthens mine, desiring to sin knowing that it's BAD is a sin, just like desiring to murder and you got the chance to not want to do that, and you keep willing to do so, that's a sin. 

Lambert is a Tinok She'Nishbah, I don't think he knows a clue about Torah and rebuking him here would do nothing but speaking Leshon He'Rah, he doesn't even know who we are.

Nope, it's a bigger mitzvah to fight off the yetzer hara than it is to not have it in the first place.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                                בס"ד

<snip>

I'll translate:

א.) רוב הסיכויים שלא תתחתן ואם תתחתן - לא תהנה לא אתה ולא אשתך מהמצוות וההלכות הנוגעות לנישואין בדגש על אלו הנוגעים למין (כמו חלק מהלכות עונג שבת ומצוות עונה).
ב.) אם תתחתן, מה עם פרו ורבו? 
ג.)  וכו'.

1.) Most chances homosexual man wouldn't get married, and it he does get married, he and his wife alike wouldn't enjoy the Mitzvoht and Halachot regarding to marriage (like Oneg Shabbat, Mitzvaht Ona, etc).
2.) If he does get married, what about the Pru U'Rbu Mitzvah?
3.) Etc.
Only examples.

About the Ramambar quote, I didn't see it, sorry.

That's a good point and it actually strengthens mine, desiring to sin knowing that it's BAD is a sin, just like desiring to murder and you got the chance to not want to do that, and you keep willing to do so, that's a sin. 

Lambert is a Tinok She'Nishbah, I don't think he knows a clue about Torah and rebuking him here would do nothing but speaking Leshon He'Rah, he doesn't even know who we are.

Shalom Ron,

What you say about homosexual relationships also happen in heterosexual relationships. Here in the states there is a high rate of divorce even in the Jewish community. Many times there are problems such as when to have children, how often to have marital relations, levels of observance, etc...

But I do understand what you are saying. Marriage between man and woman is not easy and it is a challenge for all..

But it doesn't neccesarily happen in heteroseuxal relationships. There are not many heterosexuals who don't enjoy having sex with their partners (Mitzvaht Onah and Pru U'Ru), for example. But if one chooses to be gay he wouldn't be enjoying sex, which leads to many Halachic problems.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                            בס"ד

                                                          בס"ד

                                                          בס"ד 

This is shocking that a mom would say this to her child. It is not ok to be a homo.  Leviticus 18:22 says: Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Leviticus 20:13- If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman both of them have done what is destestable.  They must be put to death: their blood will be on their own heads.

Romans 1:24- Therefore G-d gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.  They exchanged the truth of G-d for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator, who is forever praised. Amen.   Because of this G-d gave them over to shameful lusts.  Even their women exchanged natural relations for unatural ones.  In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.  Men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves due penalty for their perversion.

Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled.    And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. Sodom and Gomorah.

You can't get any clearer than this.

We just discussed this in a bible class, because many people were told to not be judgemental about gays.  The scriptures do not Lie!  Homosexuality is an abomination in G-d's eyes.

Debbie, you realize that Romans is not considered Scripture according to the Jewish Tanach.

The only thing which Torah prohibits is man on man sex... As long as a man doesnt physically sleep with another man it doesnt matter what they are attracted to... The act is the thing which the Torah clearly prohibits. I realize that Christianity goes farther and condemns anyone with attraction to the same sex as a sinner.... This is clearly not a Jewish belief.

I can bring you many proofs of this point. But I am not defending gay behaviour. It is just as much a sin to violate the Shabbat as it is to be gay... They both deserve the death penalty. Which is worse? Neither is worse, they are equally abominable to Hashem, though Torah only talks about man-on-man sex twice which the violation of Shabbat is mentioned many more times.

http://www.jewfaq.org/sex.htm
Homosexuality

Sexual relations between men are clearly forbidden by the Torah. (Lev. 18:22). Such acts are condemned in the strongest possible terms, as abhorrent. The only other sexual sin that is described in such strong terms is the sin of remarrying a woman you had divorced after she had been married to another man. (See Deut. 24:4). The sin of sexual relations between men is punishable by death (Lev. 20:13), as are the sins of adultery and incest.

It is important to note, however, that it is homosexual acts that are forbidden, not homosexual orientation. Judaism focuses on a person's actions rather than a person's desires. A man's desire to have sex with another man is not a sin, so long as he does not act upon that desire. In fact, it could be said that a man who feels such desires but does not act upon them is worthy of more merit in that regard than a man who does not feel such desires at all, just as one who refrains from pork because it is forbidden deserves more merit than one who refrains from pork because he doesn't like the taste.

I have seen some modern Orthodox sources suggest that if homosexuality is truly something hardwired in the brain, as most gay activists suggest, then a man who acts upon that desire is not morally responsible for his actions, but I am not sure how wide-spread that opinion is. In any case, it is not quite as liberal a position as some would have you believe: essentially, it is equivalent to saying that a kleptomaniac would not be held morally responsible for stealing.

Interestingly, female homosexual relations are not forbidden by the Torah. There is very little discussion of female homosexuality in the Talmud. The few sources that mention lesbian relations say that they do not disqualify a woman from certain privileges of the priesthood, because it is "merely licentiousness." There is a surprising lack of discussion of such issues as whether lesbianism would be grounds for divorcing a woman without her consent or without ketubah. Rambam asserted that lesbian practices are forbidden because it was a "practice of Egypt" and because it constituted rebelliousness.

I've just refuted these claims you posted in the Hebrew forum.
By choosing to be gay, even if you don't have man-on-man sex, you make enough sins anyway.
Btw, as much as I know the Rambam forbids Lesbism.

Why don't you refute them on the english forum?

What mitzvah is violated by a man having attraction to another man? Why didn't the Torah or the sages expressly forbid such things? Can you bring me some sources?

Did you not see that what I quoted mentioned Rambams saying that lesbianism violates the mitzvah of not emulting the ways of the Mitzrayim?

Also would it also not be a sin for a Jew to secretly desire to eat a ham sandwich? I used to love Bacon and have abstained from it for over seven years. I also loved cheeseburgers and I have not eaten them in seven years... I guess my sins are never erased in your book..

Also why did you not want me to discuss Lamberts iniquity? Not to speak Lashon Hara?

I'll translate:

א.) רוב הסיכויים שלא תתחתן ואם תתחתן - לא תהנה לא אתה ולא אשתך מהמצוות וההלכות הנוגעות לנישואין בדגש על אלו הנוגעים למין (כמו חלק מהלכות עונג שבת ומצוות עונה).
ב.) אם תתחתן, מה עם פרו ורבו? 
ג.)  וכו'.

1.) Most chances homosexual man wouldn't get married, and it he does get married, he and his wife alike wouldn't enjoy the Mitzvoht and Halachot regarding to marriage (like Oneg Shabbat, Mitzvaht Ona, etc).
2.) If he does get married, what about the Pru U'Rbu Mitzvah?
3.) Etc.
Only examples.

About the Ramambar quote, I didn't see it, sorry.

That's a good point and it actually strengthens mine, desiring to sin knowing that it's BAD is a sin, just like desiring to murder and you got the chance to not want to do that, and you keep willing to do so, that's a sin. 

Lambert is a Tinok She'Nishbah, I don't think he knows a clue about Torah and rebuking him here would do nothing but speaking Leshon He'Rah, he doesn't even know who we are.

Nope, it's a bigger mitzvah to fight off the yetzer hara than it is to not have it in the first place.

It's a worse sin to strengthen your Yetzer Ha'Rah in the first place than it is to not do anything about it.

[The One and Only Mo]

                                                            בס"ד

                                                          בס"ד

                                                          בס"ד 

This is shocking that a mom would say this to her child. It is not ok to be a homo.  Leviticus 18:22 says: Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Leviticus 20:13- If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman both of them have done what is destestable.  They must be put to death: their blood will be on their own heads.

Romans 1:24- Therefore G-d gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.  They exchanged the truth of G-d for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator, who is forever praised. Amen.   Because of this G-d gave them over to shameful lusts.  Even their women exchanged natural relations for unatural ones.  In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.  Men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves due penalty for their perversion.

Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled.    And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. Sodom and Gomorah.

You can't get any clearer than this.

We just discussed this in a bible class, because many people were told to not be judgemental about gays.  The scriptures do not Lie!  Homosexuality is an abomination in G-d's eyes.

Debbie, you realize that Romans is not considered Scripture according to the Jewish Tanach.

The only thing which Torah prohibits is man on man sex... As long as a man doesnt physically sleep with another man it doesnt matter what they are attracted to... The act is the thing which the Torah clearly prohibits. I realize that Christianity goes farther and condemns anyone with attraction to the same sex as a sinner.... This is clearly not a Jewish belief.

I can bring you many proofs of this point. But I am not defending gay behaviour. It is just as much a sin to violate the Shabbat as it is to be gay... They both deserve the death penalty. Which is worse? Neither is worse, they are equally abominable to Hashem, though Torah only talks about man-on-man sex twice which the violation of Shabbat is mentioned many more times.

http://www.jewfaq.org/sex.htm
Homosexuality

Sexual relations between men are clearly forbidden by the Torah. (Lev. 18:22). Such acts are condemned in the strongest possible terms, as abhorrent. The only other sexual sin that is described in such strong terms is the sin of remarrying a woman you had divorced after she had been married to another man. (See Deut. 24:4). The sin of sexual relations between men is punishable by death (Lev. 20:13), as are the sins of adultery and incest.

It is important to note, however, that it is homosexual acts that are forbidden, not homosexual orientation. Judaism focuses on a person's actions rather than a person's desires. A man's desire to have sex with another man is not a sin, so long as he does not act upon that desire. In fact, it could be said that a man who feels such desires but does not act upon them is worthy of more merit in that regard than a man who does not feel such desires at all, just as one who refrains from pork because it is forbidden deserves more merit than one who refrains from pork because he doesn't like the taste.

I have seen some modern Orthodox sources suggest that if homosexuality is truly something hardwired in the brain, as most gay activists suggest, then a man who acts upon that desire is not morally responsible for his actions, but I am not sure how wide-spread that opinion is. In any case, it is not quite as liberal a position as some would have you believe: essentially, it is equivalent to saying that a kleptomaniac would not be held morally responsible for stealing.

Interestingly, female homosexual relations are not forbidden by the Torah. There is very little discussion of female homosexuality in the Talmud. The few sources that mention lesbian relations say that they do not disqualify a woman from certain privileges of the priesthood, because it is "merely licentiousness." There is a surprising lack of discussion of such issues as whether lesbianism would be grounds for divorcing a woman without her consent or without ketubah. Rambam asserted that lesbian practices are forbidden because it was a "practice of Egypt" and because it constituted rebelliousness.

I've just refuted these claims you posted in the Hebrew forum.
By choosing to be gay, even if you don't have man-on-man sex, you make enough sins anyway.
Btw, as much as I know the Rambam forbids Lesbism.

Why don't you refute them on the english forum?

What mitzvah is violated by a man having attraction to another man? Why didn't the Torah or the sages expressly forbid such things? Can you bring me some sources?

Did you not see that what I quoted mentioned Rambams saying that lesbianism violates the mitzvah of not emulting the ways of the Mitzrayim?

Also would it also not be a sin for a Jew to secretly desire to eat a ham sandwich? I used to love Bacon and have abstained from it for over seven years. I also loved cheeseburgers and I have not eaten them in seven years... I guess my sins are never erased in your book..

Also why did you not want me to discuss Lamberts iniquity? Not to speak Lashon Hara?

I'll translate:

א.) רוב הסיכויים שלא תתחתן ואם תתחתן - לא תהנה לא אתה ולא אשתך מהמצוות וההלכות הנוגעות לנישואין בדגש על אלו הנוגעים למין (כמו חלק מהלכות עונג שבת ומצוות עונה).
ב.) אם תתחתן, מה עם פרו ורבו? 
ג.)  וכו'.

1.) Most chances homosexual man wouldn't get married, and it he does get married, he and his wife alike wouldn't enjoy the Mitzvoht and Halachot regarding to marriage (like Oneg Shabbat, Mitzvaht Ona, etc).
2.) If he does get married, what about the Pru U'Rbu Mitzvah?
3.) Etc.
Only examples.

About the Ramambar quote, I didn't see it, sorry.

That's a good point and it actually strengthens mine, desiring to sin knowing that it's BAD is a sin, just like desiring to murder and you got the chance to not want to do that, and you keep willing to do so, that's a sin. 

Lambert is a Tinok She'Nishbah, I don't think he knows a clue about Torah and rebuking him here would do nothing but speaking Leshon He'Rah, he doesn't even know who we are.

Nope, it's a bigger mitzvah to fight off the yetzer hara than it is to not have it in the first place.

It's a worse sin to strengthen your Yetzer Ha'Rah in the first place than it is to not do anything about it.

The only way to strengthen it is by feeding it. If you do not feed and only try to fight it, is a tremendous mitzva.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                             בס"ד

                                                            בס"ד

                                                          בס"ד

                                                          בס"ד 

This is shocking that a mom would say this to her child. It is not ok to be a homo.  Leviticus 18:22 says: Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Leviticus 20:13- If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman both of them have done what is destestable.  They must be put to death: their blood will be on their own heads.

Romans 1:24- Therefore G-d gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.  They exchanged the truth of G-d for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator, who is forever praised. Amen.   Because of this G-d gave them over to shameful lusts.  Even their women exchanged natural relations for unatural ones.  In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.  Men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves due penalty for their perversion.

Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled.    And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. Sodom and Gomorah.

You can't get any clearer than this.

We just discussed this in a bible class, because many people were told to not be judgemental about gays.  The scriptures do not Lie!  Homosexuality is an abomination in G-d's eyes.

Debbie, you realize that Romans is not considered Scripture according to the Jewish Tanach.

The only thing which Torah prohibits is man on man sex... As long as a man doesnt physically sleep with another man it doesnt matter what they are attracted to... The act is the thing which the Torah clearly prohibits. I realize that Christianity goes farther and condemns anyone with attraction to the same sex as a sinner.... This is clearly not a Jewish belief.

I can bring you many proofs of this point. But I am not defending gay behaviour. It is just as much a sin to violate the Shabbat as it is to be gay... They both deserve the death penalty. Which is worse? Neither is worse, they are equally abominable to Hashem, though Torah only talks about man-on-man sex twice which the violation of Shabbat is mentioned many more times.

http://www.jewfaq.org/sex.htm
Homosexuality

Sexual relations between men are clearly forbidden by the Torah. (Lev. 18:22). Such acts are condemned in the strongest possible terms, as abhorrent. The only other sexual sin that is described in such strong terms is the sin of remarrying a woman you had divorced after she had been married to another man. (See Deut. 24:4). The sin of sexual relations between men is punishable by death (Lev. 20:13), as are the sins of adultery and incest.

It is important to note, however, that it is homosexual acts that are forbidden, not homosexual orientation. Judaism focuses on a person's actions rather than a person's desires. A man's desire to have sex with another man is not a sin, so long as he does not act upon that desire. In fact, it could be said that a man who feels such desires but does not act upon them is worthy of more merit in that regard than a man who does not feel such desires at all, just as one who refrains from pork because it is forbidden deserves more merit than one who refrains from pork because he doesn't like the taste.

I have seen some modern Orthodox sources suggest that if homosexuality is truly something hardwired in the brain, as most gay activists suggest, then a man who acts upon that desire is not morally responsible for his actions, but I am not sure how wide-spread that opinion is. In any case, it is not quite as liberal a position as some would have you believe: essentially, it is equivalent to saying that a kleptomaniac would not be held morally responsible for stealing.

Interestingly, female homosexual relations are not forbidden by the Torah. There is very little discussion of female homosexuality in the Talmud. The few sources that mention lesbian relations say that they do not disqualify a woman from certain privileges of the priesthood, because it is "merely licentiousness." There is a surprising lack of discussion of such issues as whether lesbianism would be grounds for divorcing a woman without her consent or without ketubah. Rambam asserted that lesbian practices are forbidden because it was a "practice of Egypt" and because it constituted rebelliousness.

I've just refuted these claims you posted in the Hebrew forum.
By choosing to be gay, even if you don't have man-on-man sex, you make enough sins anyway.
Btw, as much as I know the Rambam forbids Lesbism.

Why don't you refute them on the english forum?

What mitzvah is violated by a man having attraction to another man? Why didn't the Torah or the sages expressly forbid such things? Can you bring me some sources?

Did you not see that what I quoted mentioned Rambams saying that lesbianism violates the mitzvah of not emulting the ways of the Mitzrayim?

Also would it also not be a sin for a Jew to secretly desire to eat a ham sandwich? I used to love Bacon and have abstained from it for over seven years. I also loved cheeseburgers and I have not eaten them in seven years... I guess my sins are never erased in your book..

Also why did you not want me to discuss Lamberts iniquity? Not to speak Lashon Hara?

I'll translate:

א.) רוב הסיכויים שלא תתחתן ואם תתחתן - לא תהנה לא אתה ולא אשתך מהמצוות וההלכות הנוגעות לנישואין בדגש על אלו הנוגעים למין (כמו חלק מהלכות עונג שבת ומצוות עונה).
ב.) אם תתחתן, מה עם פרו ורבו? 
ג.)  וכו'.

1.) Most chances homosexual man wouldn't get married, and it he does get married, he and his wife alike wouldn't enjoy the Mitzvoht and Halachot regarding to marriage (like Oneg Shabbat, Mitzvaht Ona, etc).
2.) If he does get married, what about the Pru U'Rbu Mitzvah?
3.) Etc.
Only examples.

About the Ramambar quote, I didn't see it, sorry.

That's a good point and it actually strengthens mine, desiring to sin knowing that it's BAD is a sin, just like desiring to murder and you got the chance to not want to do that, and you keep willing to do so, that's a sin. 

Lambert is a Tinok She'Nishbah, I don't think he knows a clue about Torah and rebuking him here would do nothing but speaking Leshon He'Rah, he doesn't even know who we are.

Nope, it's a bigger mitzvah to fight off the yetzer hara than it is to not have it in the first place.

It's a worse sin to strengthen your Yetzer Ha'Rah in the first place than it is to not do anything about it.

The only way to strengthen it is by feeding it. If you do not feed and only try to fight it, is a tremendous mitzva.

Choosing to be gay and be attracted to man is strengthening the Yetzer Ha'Rah.

[The One and Only Mo]

                                                             בס"ד

                                                            בס"ד

                                                          בס"ד

                                                          בס"ד 

This is shocking that a mom would say this to her child. It is not ok to be a homo.  Leviticus 18:22 says: Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Leviticus 20:13- If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman both of them have done what is destestable.  They must be put to death: their blood will be on their own heads.

Romans 1:24- Therefore G-d gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.  They exchanged the truth of G-d for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator, who is forever praised. Amen.   Because of this G-d gave them over to shameful lusts.  Even their women exchanged natural relations for unatural ones.  In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.  Men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves due penalty for their perversion.

Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled.    And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. Sodom and Gomorah.

You can't get any clearer than this.

We just discussed this in a bible class, because many people were told to not be judgemental about gays.  The scriptures do not Lie!  Homosexuality is an abomination in G-d's eyes.

Debbie, you realize that Romans is not considered Scripture according to the Jewish Tanach.

The only thing which Torah prohibits is man on man sex... As long as a man doesnt physically sleep with another man it doesnt matter what they are attracted to... The act is the thing which the Torah clearly prohibits. I realize that Christianity goes farther and condemns anyone with attraction to the same sex as a sinner.... This is clearly not a Jewish belief.

I can bring you many proofs of this point. But I am not defending gay behaviour. It is just as much a sin to violate the Shabbat as it is to be gay... They both deserve the death penalty. Which is worse? Neither is worse, they are equally abominable to Hashem, though Torah only talks about man-on-man sex twice which the violation of Shabbat is mentioned many more times.

http://www.jewfaq.org/sex.htm
Homosexuality

Sexual relations between men are clearly forbidden by the Torah. (Lev. 18:22). Such acts are condemned in the strongest possible terms, as abhorrent. The only other sexual sin that is described in such strong terms is the sin of remarrying a woman you had divorced after she had been married to another man. (See Deut. 24:4). The sin of sexual relations between men is punishable by death (Lev. 20:13), as are the sins of adultery and incest.

It is important to note, however, that it is homosexual acts that are forbidden, not homosexual orientation. Judaism focuses on a person's actions rather than a person's desires. A man's desire to have sex with another man is not a sin, so long as he does not act upon that desire. In fact, it could be said that a man who feels such desires but does not act upon them is worthy of more merit in that regard than a man who does not feel such desires at all, just as one who refrains from pork because it is forbidden deserves more merit than one who refrains from pork because he doesn't like the taste.

I have seen some modern Orthodox sources suggest that if homosexuality is truly something hardwired in the brain, as most gay activists suggest, then a man who acts upon that desire is not morally responsible for his actions, but I am not sure how wide-spread that opinion is. In any case, it is not quite as liberal a position as some would have you believe: essentially, it is equivalent to saying that a kleptomaniac would not be held morally responsible for stealing.

Interestingly, female homosexual relations are not forbidden by the Torah. There is very little discussion of female homosexuality in the Talmud. The few sources that mention lesbian relations say that they do not disqualify a woman from certain privileges of the priesthood, because it is "merely licentiousness." There is a surprising lack of discussion of such issues as whether lesbianism would be grounds for divorcing a woman without her consent or without ketubah. Rambam asserted that lesbian practices are forbidden because it was a "practice of Egypt" and because it constituted rebelliousness.

I've just refuted these claims you posted in the Hebrew forum.
By choosing to be gay, even if you don't have man-on-man sex, you make enough sins anyway.
Btw, as much as I know the Rambam forbids Lesbism.

Why don't you refute them on the english forum?

What mitzvah is violated by a man having attraction to another man? Why didn't the Torah or the sages expressly forbid such things? Can you bring me some sources?

Did you not see that what I quoted mentioned Rambams saying that lesbianism violates the mitzvah of not emulting the ways of the Mitzrayim?

Also would it also not be a sin for a Jew to secretly desire to eat a ham sandwich? I used to love Bacon and have abstained from it for over seven years. I also loved cheeseburgers and I have not eaten them in seven years... I guess my sins are never erased in your book..

Also why did you not want me to discuss Lamberts iniquity? Not to speak Lashon Hara?

I'll translate:

א.) רוב הסיכויים שלא תתחתן ואם תתחתן - לא תהנה לא אתה ולא אשתך מהמצוות וההלכות הנוגעות לנישואין בדגש על אלו הנוגעים למין (כמו חלק מהלכות עונג שבת ומצוות עונה).
ב.) אם תתחתן, מה עם פרו ורבו? 
ג.)  וכו'.

1.) Most chances homosexual man wouldn't get married, and it he does get married, he and his wife alike wouldn't enjoy the Mitzvoht and Halachot regarding to marriage (like Oneg Shabbat, Mitzvaht Ona, etc).
2.) If he does get married, what about the Pru U'Rbu Mitzvah?
3.) Etc.
Only examples.

About the Ramambar quote, I didn't see it, sorry.

That's a good point and it actually strengthens mine, desiring to sin knowing that it's BAD is a sin, just like desiring to murder and you got the chance to not want to do that, and you keep willing to do so, that's a sin. 

Lambert is a Tinok She'Nishbah, I don't think he knows a clue about Torah and rebuking him here would do nothing but speaking Leshon He'Rah, he doesn't even know who we are.

Nope, it's a bigger mitzvah to fight off the yetzer hara than it is to not have it in the first place.

It's a worse sin to strengthen your Yetzer Ha'Rah in the first place than it is to not do anything about it.

The only way to strengthen it is by feeding it. If you do not feed and only try to fight it, is a tremendous mitzva.

Choosing to be gay and be attracted to man is strengthening the Yetzer Ha'Rah.

The only sin would be not trying to have children/not marrying a woman. There's no sin for coveting another man, as long as you do nothing about it. It is a mitzvah to fight the yetzer hara. I crave cheeseburgers all the time, and fighting the yetzer hara is not a sin.

[muman613]

The question is where you start your journey... Some people are born into unfortunate circumstances and can rise to high levels while others are born at a high level and fall to low levels...

What Mo is saying is that where the Bal Teshuva stands the Frum From Birth can never stand. The fact that we have risen from a low place and changed ourselves, turning toward Hashem, gives us Reward in Olam Haba... Someone who is born at a high level and doesnt reach for higher levels will be judged more harshly than one who was born with very little Wisdom and gains wisdom before he passes to Olam Haba.

It is difficult to do calculations on who has more merit, and it is wrong to assume that we can make Averahs with the knowledge we can make teshuva. Averahs are judged each time we commit them, and if we have been rebuked and we persist in making Averahs we are judged more harshly. This is how I understand this dynamic.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                             בס"ד

The only sin would be not trying to have children/not marrying a woman. There's no sin for coveting another man, as long as you do nothing about it. It is a mitzvah to fight the yetzer hara. I crave cheeseburgers all the time, and fighting the yetzer hara is not a sin.

Not really, he'd be sinning in other ways too as I've listed above.
There's a sin in coveting other man just like there is sin in willing to murder.
It is a Mitzvah to fight the Yetzer Ha'Rah but most sane men wouldn't like men anyway and loving cheeseburgers is something that would be more likely to happen then coveting men (only an "anti" guy would do so).

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                         בס"ד

The question is where you start your journey... Some people are born into unfortunate circumstances and can rise to high levels while others are born at a high level and fall to low levels...

What Mo is saying is that where the Bal Teshuva stands the Frum From Birth can never stand. The fact that we have risen from a low place and changed ourselves, turning toward Hashem, gives us Reward in Olam Haba... Someone who is born at a high level and doesnt reach for higher levels will be judged more harshly than one who was born with very little Wisdom and gains wisdom before he passes to Olam Haba.

It is difficult to do calculations on who has more merit, and it is wrong to assume that we can make Averahs with the knowledge we can make teshuva. Averahs are judged each time we commit them, and if we have been rebuked and we persist in making Averahs we are judged more harshly. This is how I understand this dynamic.

Where did I disagree?

[The One and Only Mo]

forget it, there's no point in this. We're all straight and frum. Amen.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                     בס"ד

forget it, there's no point in this. We're all straight and frum. Amen.

LMAO

[muman613]

                                                         בס"ד

The question is where you start your journey... Some people are born into unfortunate circumstances and can rise to high levels while others are born at a high level and fall to low levels...

What Mo is saying is that where the Bal Teshuva stands the Frum From Birth can never stand. The fact that we have risen from a low place and changed ourselves, turning toward Hashem, gives us Reward in Olam Haba... Someone who is born at a high level and doesnt reach for higher levels will be judged more harshly than one who was born with very little Wisdom and gains wisdom before he passes to Olam Haba.

It is difficult to do calculations on who has more merit, and it is wrong to assume that we can make Averahs with the knowledge we can make teshuva. Averahs are judged each time we commit them, and if we have been rebuked and we persist in making Averahs we are judged more harshly. This is how I understand this dynamic.

Where did I disagree?

I did not mean that you disagree... I am just trying to explain the concept which I think Mo was talking about.... To overcome the desires which we are born with, sometimes they are not in line with the Torah... So we must give them up. So if the desire for forbidden sexual relationships, whether they are homosexual or amongst the other forbidden relationships like incest and rape, can be overcome and turned into something good, then the individuals soul gets merit. I dont know what goes on in the homosexual mind but I can only apply what I know about myself and what I learn from Torah. So I believe Hashem doesnt create them just to destroy them, he creates them in order for them to overcome their forbidden temptation.

That is all I am saying.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                            בס"ד

                                                         בס"ד

The question is where you start your journey... Some people are born into unfortunate circumstances and can rise to high levels while others are born at a high level and fall to low levels...

What Mo is saying is that where the Bal Teshuva stands the Frum From Birth can never stand. The fact that we have risen from a low place and changed ourselves, turning toward Hashem, gives us Reward in Olam Haba... Someone who is born at a high level and doesnt reach for higher levels will be judged more harshly than one who was born with very little Wisdom and gains wisdom before he passes to Olam Haba.

It is difficult to do calculations on who has more merit, and it is wrong to assume that we can make Averahs with the knowledge we can make teshuva. Averahs are judged each time we commit them, and if we have been rebuked and we persist in making Averahs we are judged more harshly. This is how I understand this dynamic.

Where did I disagree?

I did not mean that you disagree... I am just trying to explain the concept which I think Mo was talking about.... To overcome the desires which we are born with, sometimes they are not in line with the Torah... So we must give them up. So if the desire for forbidden sexual relationships, whether they are homosexual or amongst the other forbidden relationships like incest and rape, can be overcome and turned into something good, then the individuals soul gets merit. I dont know what goes on in the homosexual mind but I can only apply what I know about myself and what I learn from Torah. So I believe Hashem doesnt create them just to destroy them, he creates them in order for them to overcome their forbidden temptation.

That is all I am saying.

I don't disagree but no man would desire men just cause of that like me and you desire women. He'd do it as a result of a social background or something like that. Gays are not born like that.