Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Earth at the Center of the Universe
Mifletzet:
“Those well meaning persons who felt impelled to interpret certain passages in the Torah differently from the time-honoured tradition, did so only in the mistaken belief that the Torah view on the age of the world was at variance with science; otherwise they would not have sought new interpretations in the Torah….there is no need to seek new reinterpretations in the Torah to 'reconcile' them with science” (Lubavitcher Rebbe).
In Chassidus, references to previous worlds and their destruction and ages are taken to be referring to the non-corporeal Olam HaTohu and the act of the sheviras hakeilim.
Most Haredi Jews take the year 5767 preceded by six 24 hour days, with the physical universe due to terminate by 6000, literally.
And there is solid scientific evidence for this view.
jdl4ever:
Firstly, you make me laugh since you accuse others of not adhering to the time honored explanation of the Torah when it is you who is not adhering to it as the Talmud states that the Rabbis admitted to the Greek's point of view that the Earth goes around the sun. The Rabbis in the Talmud who were the holiest Rabbis used science to prove and disprove Torah interpuitations and the Rebbe can't argue with the Talmud. I'm the one sticking to the traditional explanation of the Talmud where you have to find a Chassidish far fetched lone interpuitation who says that the Talmud really meaned the opposite. Also the Mishna Pirkai Avot says that Science is a spice to the Torah. And you fail to take into account that there is many interpuitations of the Genesis account and science can disprove a traditional account in favor of another account.
Secondly, you constantly say that Science supports your point of view when it does not. Everything you say is contrary to Science as NO scientist still thinks the earth is the center of the universe. No respectable scientist thinks the earth is 6000 years old. Thirdly, the Bible clearly implies that the Genesis account does not mean 24 hour days, since the Torah menchans that there was morning and evening and days before the Sun and Moon were created and day,night, seasons and times even existed so it is obvious it does not refer to 24 hour days since it is impossible to have a 24 hour day if day and night did not exist yet as the Torah says on the fourth day "G-d said let there be lights in the empty space of heaven to divide between day and night". So obviously, the days refer to days from G-d's point of view which is actually billions of years. This was also proven scientifically in many ways. The fact that you can see a star millions of light years away means that the light took millions of light years to travel to Earth. Had the earth been only 6,000 years old, we not be able to see most of the stars in the sky via a good telescope since the light from stars millions of light years away would not have reached earth yet.
Does the Rebbe think that he was better than the Talmud Rashi and the Rambam? Do you think it is OK to accuse others of misinterpeting the Torah when the simple meaning of the Torah as well as the ancient commentaries agree with them but you have to resort to new commentaries that blatantly argue with the old ones? You are the one who is misinterpeting the Torah and even worse is that you are lying about it. At least admit that Science does not support you at all and simply call Science Heresy like one Chassidish Rabbi I met instead of lying. At least you are being honest if you do that instead of trying to deceive people.
Mifletzet:
You seem to be under the misconception that the discussion in Pesachim 94 was about geocentrism, which it isn't!
It is a discussion on whether the galgalim move and the stars are stationary, or vice versa.
http://www.dafyomi.org/index.php?masechta=pesachim&daf=94b&go=Go
Until Copernicus, everyone held by geocentrism.
Since Rav Kahane, his son Binyamin Zeev, and Chaim too, hold by a literal 6000 year geocentric universe, which is fully supported by Torah, Nach, Chazal and science, your outlook needs some correction!
But many like you have trouble reconciling current science with Torah, even to the point of having a crisis in emunah, as the recent Slifkin Affair showed.
For those, the intermediate approach of Professor Gerald Schroeder is useful http://www.geraldschroeder.com/
He shows how by Einstein the universe can be both 6000 and 16 billion years old, and both heliocentric, acentric and geocentric, all at the same time, so everyone's happy!
Lubab:
--- Quote from: jdl4ever on April 26, 2007, 02:14:43 PM ---Firstly, you make me laugh since you accuse others of not adhering to the time honored explanation of the Torah when it is you who is not adhering to it as the Talmud states that the Rabbis admitted to the Greek's point of view that the Earth goes around the sun. The Rabbis in the Talmud who were the holiest Rabbis used science to prove and disprove Torah interpuitations and the Rebbe can't argue with the Talmud. I'm the one sticking to the traditional explanation of the Talmud where you have to find a Chassidish far fetched lone interpuitation who says that the Talmud really meaned the opposite. Also the Mishna Pirkai Avot says that Science is a spice to the Torah. And you fail to take into account that there is many interpuitations of the Genesis account and science can disprove a
traditional account in favor of another account.
Secondly, you constantly say that Science supports your point of view when it does not. Everything you say is contrary to Science as NO scientist still thinks the earth is the center of the universe. No respectable scientist thinks the earth is 6000 years old. Thirdly, the Bible clearly implies that the Genesis account does not mean 24 hour days, since the Torah menchans that there was morning and evening and days before the Sun and Moon were created and day,night, seasons and times even existed so it is obvious it does not refer to 24 hour days since it is impossible to have a 24 hour day if day and night did not exist yet as the Torah says on the fourth day "G-d said let there be lights in the empty space of heaven to divide between day and night". So obviously, the days refer to days from G-d's point of view which is actually billions of years. This was also proven scientifically in many ways. The fact that you can see a star millions of light years away means that the light took millions of light years to travel to Earth. Had the earth been only 6,000 years old, we not be able to see most of the stars in the sky via a good telescope since the light from stars millions of light years away would not have reached earth yet.
Does the Rebbe think that he was better than the Talmud Rashi and the Rambam? Do you think it is OK to accuse others of misinterpeting the Torah when the simple meaning of the Torah as well as the ancient commentaries agree with them but you have to resort to new commentaries that blatantly argue with the old ones? You are the one who is misinterpeting the Torah and even worse is that you are lying about it. At least admit that Science does not support you at all and simply call Science Heresy like one Chassidish Rabbi I met instead of lying. At least you are being honest if you do that instead of trying to deceive people.
--- End quote ---
If you're on the earth, it looks like the sun is going around you. If you're on the sun, it would look like the earth is going around you.
In space, where we don't know where it ends and therefore cannot locate a particular "center", how can you logically prove which perspective is "correct"? Wouldn't it all depend on where you place you're point of reference?
I think either view is equally plausible and the Rabbis spoke about Earth being the point of reference because this is the place where the Torah was given and we have our mission...and the rest is like a backdrop and we're the stars of the show. It's just a matter of perspective.
jdl4ever:
Well, it may "look" like everything is going around us but that is not true. It was proven that we rotate around the sun as does all the planets in our solar system. A long time ago, they tracked the movment and changes in the appearance of the size of the planets for years and found that they in fact do go around the sun as do we. The Rabbis in the Talmud admitted to this and yes, saying that the stars are stationary and we move is another way of saying that the earth moves and is not the center of the universe.
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