Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Earth at the Center of the Universe
Lubab:
--- Quote from: jdl4ever on June 03, 2007, 02:43:25 AM ---As much as I respect the Rebbe I think that he was wrong and Rabbi R. was correct. It was proven a long time ago scientifically that the earth revolves around the Sun based on astronomical sightings. In fact, after going to space several times, having dozens of sattalites in the sky, and having hundreds of thousands of telescopes all proving the earth goes around the sun should be enough proof for you. If you want to try to prove that the scientists are lying, take out a telescope and do the measurements and chartings yourself and you will see that the arey correct. The Rebbe did not do a wise move here. The method of fools is to use brand new scientific concepts that they don't understand to rationalize there own arguments even though they don't know what they are talking about. I talked with a physicist who understands the theory of relativity and the argument the Rebbe claims is laughable, in fact Einstein himself believed that the earth goes around the sun.
JDL4EVER disproves the Rebbe's argument
Firstly, the earth and the sun do not rotate around each other like the Rebbe claimed. This was the basis of his entire argument and it is 100% wrong. If the Sun did move around the earth and the earth did rotate around the sun then he would have a good argument since according to relativity an observer can't tell which one is rotating around who. But this postulate is completely wrong, and the Rebbe knew it. The Sun is in fact stationary and the Earth is the only object that moves so the Rebbe's basic postulate is wrong and relativity does not apply.
Secondly, even if we ignore the obvious error in the Rebbe's argument and assume that it is correct. Namely, that an observer can't tell by observation which one goes around who if both are moving around each other, it still can be proven mathematically or scientifically which one goes around who and mathematically and astronomically we have proven that the Earth rotates around the Sun. Relativity only talks about the relative observations of observers in this case. However, the objective conclusion can be proven scientifically. For example, relativity will state that if I am moving at the speed of light, light will appear stationary, but it can be proven scientifically that light is not stationary and it only appears stationary to myself.
Thirdly, by adding another objective observer we can tell who is going around who. For example, a space craft is an objective observer since it is not located on Earth or on the Sun and from that objective observer there is no more relativity and that observer will distinguish who is rotating around who. Guess what? The astronots in space have observed nothing unusual. So in every singe aspect the Rebbe is wrong.
--- End quote ---
Are you saying the Rebbe did not understand the theory of relativity? Are you aware that the Rebbe was one of the foremost physists of his time. Did you know that he worked in covert operations with the US Army to produce a more advaced battleship then ever had been produced berfore in WW2? He was a towering genius by the testomony of every scholar and sceintist who ever met him.He was top of his class in Berlin/ You should take treat his reasoning with a bit more repect. He knew science a great deal better than you do, and I can gaurantee you that.
I will go back and read your post again. But watch out for conclusory arguments. You seem to assume certain facts that compel you're conclusion, but those underlying facts are not as obvious as you make them out to be.
Go ask someone who really knows the thoery of relativity well and show him/her this letter.
NOTE: I just noticed you said that Rabbi R. was right and the Rebbe was wrong. In the story it says Rabbi R. held the sun goes around the earth. Maybe you should read the post again more carefully.
mord:
The Rebbe aso went to the Sorborne
mord:
Gerald Schroder world renowned proffesor turns famous atheist into beleiver of G=D
http://www.geraldschroeder.com/new.html
jdl4ever:
The Rebbe was not one of the foremost physicists of his time. Who are you trying to fool? He didn't even have a degree in Physics or Mathematics. My father knows more about Physics than the Rebbe, no offense since he has an advanced degree in Mathematics and has advanced graduate training in Physics; and my father is a math genius. (And worked on much cooler projects then the Rebbe did, but I can't say publicly PM me if you want me to tell you) The Rebbe had a degree in electrical engineering and was probably a great electrical engineer and he was indeed a great Torah genius, but he was no expert in physics and probably only had a layman's knowledge of physics based on the weak argument he presented that even a layman such as myself can disprove. Being a Torah genius does not make you an expert in science. The Rebbe's argument speaks for itself and it is lacking substance so decide for yourself if the Rebbe was the greatest physics expert and can go against the entire scientific community and proven observations. The Rebbe in fact goes against very basic physics which is 400 years old, forget about relatitity. The basics of phsyics is Newton's law of gravitational forces which in layman's terms state that the larger the object the greater the gravitational force around it so since the sun is the biggest object in the solar system and has the greatest gravitational pull so everything in our solar system will orbit the sun.
Relativity is based on this law, and the Rebbe goes against the basic law of physics which is a proven fact.
Rebbe and R' Kahane = Torah geniuses, Tzaddikim, very smart men
Rebbe and the Rav; not = to science experts
Lubab:
--- Quote from: jdl4ever on June 03, 2007, 04:20:52 PM ---The Rebbe was not one of the foremost physicists of his time. Who are you trying to fool? He didn't even have a degree in Physics or Mathematics. My father knows more about Physics than the Rebbe, no offense since he has an advanced degree in Mathematics and has advanced graduate training in Physics; and my father is a math genius. (And worked on much cooler projects then the Rebbe did, but I can't say publicly PM me if you want me to tell you) The Rebbe had a degree in electrical engineering and was probably a great electrical engineer and he was indeed a great Torah genius, but he was no expert in physics and probably only had a layman's knowledge of physics based on the weak argument he presented that even a layman such as myself can disprove. Being a Torah genius does not make you an expert in science. The Rebbe's argument speaks for itself and it is lacking substance so decide for yourself if the Rebbe was the greatest physics expert and can go against the entire scientific community and proven observations. The Rebbe in fact goes against very basic physics which is 400 years old, forget about relatitity. The basics of phsyics is Newton's law of gravitational forces which in layman's terms state that the larger the object the greater the gravitational force around it so since the sun is the biggest 4. object in the solar system and has the greatest gravitational pull so everything in our solar system will orbit the sun.
Relativity is based on this law, and the Rebbe goes against the basic law of physics which is a proven fact.
Rebbe and R' Kahane = Torah geniuses, Tzaddikim, very smart men
Rebbe and the Rav; not = to science experts
--- End quote ---
You'll win this argument because I'm no science expert by any stretch.
But I would just point a few things
1. When you are dealing with great minds like the Rebbe's, degrees don't tell the whole story. For instance, when the Rebbe was in Sorbone, he was known to often stump his PROFESSORS. He went there for whatever reasons he went there, but Rabbi J.B. Soloveitchik and the others that were there with him attested to the fact that the experience was somewhat of a 'joke' for the Rebbe. Degrees don't tell you that kind of information. Surely, you would agree that one can have expert knoweledge in a field without going through the formal steps neccesary to obtain a degree.
2. I'm not really impressed by you're speculation about how much knowledge the Rebbe had based on a letter (the full text of which was not even available). The Rebbe in his letters, used to simplify things as much as possible, and then when people would ask for more details he would give them more.
3. You think you are a layman that disproved the Rebbe, but being a layman myself, I didn't think you disproved him at all. In your arguments you continuously assume the fact you're trying to prove.
You assume that you can measure from a satellite or from earth and get the answers, ignoring the fact that the satellite and earth are only "objective" stationary points once you decided that that's going to be your reference point. The satelites are also in orbit. And the earth is also in motion. If you consider that, whatever calculations you made can't really be relied upon more than just one way that the situation could be. You can say: if this is our reference point it's like this. But if this is our reference point it's like that. But you still can't prove which reference point is correct. Do the same measurments using the sun as the objective reference point and you'll get a completely different result.
4. Regarding Newton's law of gravitational forces, all I can say is, you are making a big mistake if you think the Rebbe wasn't very familiar with it. You're showing me you don't really know who the Rebbe was if you think that.
The Rebbe WAS a very unique figure in that his knowledge spanned not only Torah but all facets of secular knowlege and he also knew how the two connected. No matter what field a person was expert in, whether it be military strategy, mathematics, art, music, the experts were always amazed at the Rebbe's proficiency after having a private audience with him. So I'm just saying don't be so quick to dismiss him.
5. I would also remind you that the scientific community may not outright lie, but they do have a history of making many matters seem a great deal more settled than the empirical data actually can show. See their views on evolution, radioactive dating and now global warming. They use tremendous extrapolation in all of these theories, which started out as theories, but one day they decide that they are fact and they make everyone into a fool if they disagree with them. The history of the sceintific community does have a lot of dogma and often the greatest discoveries were laughed at until they were later accepted. So there is a lot of deception that goes on and you do need to be wary of it. Here too, I wouldn't be surprised if the scientific community imposed the view that the earth goes around the sun though other explanations may be also plausible.
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