Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Earth at the Center of the Universe
Muck DeFuslims:
Interesting thread, gentlemen.
I'd like to add my input.
Quoting from Rebbe Schneerson's letter to 'Mr. P':
"One of the conclusions of the theory of relativity is that when there are two systems, or planets, in motion relative to each other-such as the sun and the earth in our case-either view, namely the sun rotating around the earth, or the earth rotating around the sun, has equal validity."
Technically, this might be true. From our place on Earth and our perspective of events from our point in and time and space then the Sun as well as all heavenly bodies do in fact appear to revolve around the Earth.
But does this appearance based on relativity accurately represent the greater truth or reality ?
Notice that the esteemed Rebbe's quote specifically deals with-and is applicable to- a two object system.
But is the Solar System or the Universe a two object system ?
Of course not !
To accurately settle the argument of whether it is the Sun revolving around the Earth or vice versa (or both), one would have to observe these bodies from another standpoint. Because relativity mandates that observations made from a singular point of a two object system are subjectively true from that individual measuring point--it becomes necessary to observe the two bodies in question from separate/different vantage points in order to make a determination as to what the greater truth is.
The real question is: What would a being on another heavenly body- or any location not on the Earth or Sun- witness were he to observe the motion of the Earth and Sun relative to each other ?
I think he would see the Earth revolving around the Sun.
I'm not expert enough to be able to prove this, but i strongly suspect such proofs exist.
Lubab:
--- Quote from: Muck DeFuslims on June 04, 2007, 09:53:22 PM ---
The real question is: What would a being on another heavenly body- or any location not on the Earth or Sun- witness were he to observe the motion of the Earth and Sun relative to each other ?
I think he would see the Earth revolving around the Sun.
I'm not expert enough to be able to prove this, but i strongly suspect such proofs exist.
--- End quote ---
If he's in the physical world you'll still run into the same relativity problems. You'll never be able to prove that he's still and everything else is moving. That will always be just one of sevearal possibilities. There is an absolute truth here, but I believe that comes from the Torah, sceince cannot provide a definitive answer no matter how many scientists claim they can. The absolute truth of the Torah says the Holy of Holies in Jerusalem and particularly the "Even Hashesiaya" is the center of the universe.
jdl4ever:
Relativity is merely an relative observation and has nothing to do with this argument other than to bury the truth. It just says that from this standpoint it appears that the sun is moving. So what? Big deal. We know that already. But we don't care about what it looks like, we want to know if it is indeed moving around us or are we moving around it. Mathematical and scientific data prove things like this even if they involve relativity. Mathematical data on the motion of the planets observed through telescopes prove that there orbit is around the sun. Relativity has absolutely nothing to do with this other than to confuse lay people who for some reason think that scientific and mathematical proof doesn't apply for relativity. This is absurd. Just because it appears that water is boiling when you bubble Co2 gas through it does not mean that a scientists can't take the temperature of the water and prove that it is not boiling. Lubov is saying that the scientist can't prove the water is not boiling by taking it's temperature bec. it involves relativity. That is completely wrong. And if that doesn't satisfy you then observe the earth and the sun from an objective vantage point from appolo 11 or something which went in the middle of space.
Lubab:
--- Quote from: jdl4ever on June 04, 2007, 11:05:28 PM ---Relativity is merely an relative observation and has nothing to do with this argument other than to bury the truth. It just says that from this standpoint it appears that the sun is moving. So what? Big deal. We know that already. But we don't care about what it looks like, we want to know if it is indeed moving around us or are we moving around it. Mathematical and scientific data prove things like this even if they involve relativity. Mathematical data on the motion of the planets observed through telescopes prove that there orbit is around the sun. Relativity has absolutely nothing to do with this other than to confuse lay people who for some reason think that scientific and mathematical proof doesn't apply for relativity. This is absurd. Just because it appears that water is boiling when you bubble Co2 gas through it does not mean that a scientists can't take the temperature of the water and prove that it is not boiling. Lubov is saying that the scientist can't prove the water is not boiling by taking it's temperature bec. it involves relativity. That is completely wrong. And if that doesn't satisfy you then observe the earth and the sun from an objective vantage point from appolo 11 or something which went in the middle of space.
--- End quote ---
1. First of all what makes you think appollo 11 in the "middle" of space is an objective spot from which to measure. You will still be able to do the measurements and find all the scientific data using different focul points and you will have differnet conclusions.
2. Sceintific data is very important and no one here is abandoning it. However, the theory of relativity has imposed certain limitations on what it can be used to prove definitively. Sceintific data CANNOT resolve this issue one way or the other under the priciples of relativity. So if you'd like to join us in the 21st century you can't say one way or the other based on science. Sceintists are bound by logic just as everyone else is and this would not be the first time the scientific community has imposed a particular dogma and been wrong about it.
3. Let's drop the issue of sun and earth because there is too much emotion involved in this one. Let's deal with a more basic situation so this becomes clear.
I ask you: Assuming we all agree that the theory of relativity is correct. When you throw a tennis ball, is it a provable fact that the ball is in motion and you are still, or is it also possible that the ball is the center of the universe and everything is moving around it, making it apppear as if it's motion but it's really still all the while.
Must either of these possibilities be true scientifically speaking or can both be true depending on which focul point you choose to adopt to make the appropriate measurements?
Is it possible to prove through observation and experimentation that one of these possiblities is correct and the other is not?
Don't talk about scientists and data. Use your brain and try to answer this question.
I'm awaiting eagerly your response to this question...
Joe Schmo:
We know nothing of the Universe.
Is it finite or infinite, expanding or contracting?
Trying to understand the Universe is like trying to use human logic to explain G-d's reasons for doing what He does.
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