Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Earth at the Center of the Universe
jdl4ever:
I'm also tired. If you really want me to answer your tennis ball analogy then I will do so but I feel my comments have already answered your questions about relativity including this example. Basically, I believe that the Torah is correct obviously. I put the Torah first of course but much of what the Torah says about creation has dozens of possible interpretations. JDL4EVER and the Misnagdim believe that if science proves that something is wrong, then we can eliminate possible interpretations of the Torah in favor or those interpretations that coinside with the proven scientific viewpoint. The 7 day account of creation is an example that has many interpretations and even many of the ancient commentators didn't take it literally; plus the simple reading of the Torah contradicts the view that the account is literal since the day and night didn't exist when the first and second morning and evening were menchaned. The Chassidim however have closed minds and only accept one interpretation of the Torah out of many (the one that their Rebbe chose), and never reject that interpretation when science proves it wrong, and instead they say that Science is wrong and every other Jew that takes another valid interpretation of the Torah is a heretic.
Lubav asked what if the Torah said something outright with no other meaning and that contradicted science? Well, then the Torah must be correct in this case since that's what G-d said but so far science has not contradicted the Torah, it only enhanced our understanding of the Torah.
Secondly, it is you who has explaining to do since the Talmud says that the Earth goes around the Sun and the Talmud relates how the Rabbis of the Talmud accepted the secular viewpoint of the cosmos when they proved that they were correct, so the Rabbis in the Talmud were like me and not like you. They had open minds. Also the Bible never says that the sun goes around the Earth and you know it.
Mifletzet:
Einstein himself says:
"The struggle, so violent in the early days of science, between the views of Ptolemy and Copernicus would then be quite meaningless. Either coordinate system could be used with equal justification. The two sentences, 'the sun is at rest and the earth moves,' or 'the sun moves and the earth is at rest,' would simply mean two different conventions concerning two different coordinate systems" (Einstein and Infeld, The Evolution of Physics, p.212).
Thus, Einstein holds that the Sun going round the Earth is EQUALLY valid, not allegorically, but in hard physics! This is the FOUNDATION of Relativity!
The Tenach speaks in about 700 places of the Sun moving. Nowhere does it speak of the Earth moving, except when it will be shaken at the End of Days, as the novi predicts נוע תנוע הארץ
Yehoshua 10 has Yehoshua commanding the Sun & Moon to stop their moving, NOT the Earth to "stop rotating".
The Tenach does not speak phenomenologically. It is plain speaking, and states things AS THEY ARE - רק בעינך תביט
The Tenach is not a science text book, but on the areas on which it speaks on scientific subjects, we who believe in the Dvar Hashem hold that it is authoritative, and He would not state a falsehood in His Word to be propagated down the generations!
jdl4ever:
Mere stupidity. Einstein himself knew and believed that the earth went around the sun, so stop misquoting him out of context. Relativity is an observation of possibilities while mathematical and scientific proof is used to prove which possibility is correct. As for Joshua, all it says is that the sun stopped in the sky which can be taken to mean either of those interpretations so there is no proof one way or the other. If the earth stopped revolving around the sun then the sun will appear to stay still in the sky when we look at it. The Tanach speaks in the language of regular people as Rashi says many times so it talks about how the sun appears to us, it doesn't speak in the language of science. The Talmud however, does say that the Earth goes around the Sun, so if you are looking for proof of who the ancient Rabbis thought was correct, there it is.
Mifletzet:
That is a pure Einstein quote in context.
You haven't given us yet the exact source of this purported Heliocentric Talmud quote (because there is no such quote!).
"If the Galileo Affair had taken place after Einstein had framed his General Theory, it would have resulted in an even draw, out of physical and mathematical necessity. The difference between a geocentric and heliocentric view is one of relative motion only, and such a difference has no physical significance" (Sir Fred Hoyle).
NASA uses the geocentric model (ie stationary, non-rotating Earth) for its satellite launches, and the geocentric model is used as the truest possible one for artillery, satellites, navigation, weather forecasting, oceanography, gyroscopy, calendars, eclipses, etc.
"Then spake Yehoshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ayalon.
And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Yasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day" (Yehoshua 10).
Yehoshua commanded the Sun and Moon to stop moving. He did not command the Earth to stop rotating - אין המקרא יוצא אלא מידי פשוטו
Notice that the simplest explanation of the zero-velocity result of the Michelson-Morley experiment, and the positive velocity result of the Michelson-Gale experiment is that the Earth is NOT rotating!
Read the geocentrism-advocating chapters in "True Science Supports the Bible", "Mind over Matter", plus the articles in the B'Or HaTorah journals, and that's just for starters.
JDL4ever is implying that suddenly Moshe Rabbeinu, Yehoshua, all of Chazal, the Rambam, the Maharal, R.Dovid Gans, the Ma'aseh Tuviyah, the Matteh Dan, the Techunos Hashamayim, the Shvilei D'Rakiya, R.Yehonason Eibeshutz, the Ba'al Hatanya, R.Nachman of Breslov, the Sefer Habris, the Lubavitcher Rebbes, Rav Kahane and his son, Chaim, Einstein, Sir Fred Hoyle, Sir Herman Bondi, Professor Herman Branover, Birkhoff, Burniston-Brown, Moon and Spencer, Mach, Nightingale, Rosser, Lense and Thirring, Barbour and Bertotti etc etc etc are all "stupid", and that it's JDL4ever who is "clever": what a disgrace - a chilul even!
Muck DeFuslims:
This thread excites me and depresses me at the same time.
I think it's magnificent and wonderful that the infallibility and truth of our Torah, and therefore Hashem, is unquestioned here.
But I also find it disturbing that there are those that feel if the Earth is orbiting the Sun or that if the Earth is rotating on it's axis that this somehow invalidates the Torah.
I believe that an infallible, complete grasping of the intricacies, mysteries, subtleties and meaning of the Torah is just as impossible as an infallible, complete understanding of the Universe.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version