Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Earth at the Center of the Universe
Mifletzet:
You wound yourself by thinking that Relativity is merely a mathematical construct without physical reality. If it can't be physically real, then Einstein is invalidated.
Relativity REQUIRES that to be a physical reality fully equivalent to any other chosen reference frame -- if it's not a physical reality, then Relativity is wrong.
Relativity REQUIRES it to be possible to take the Earth to be PHYSICALLY AT REST, without some physical impossibility interfering with that requirement. If the Earth cannot be treated as being actually, physically at rest, then Einstein is invalidated.
One way out is to be an equal-opportunity scoffer and say that all coordinate frames lack physical reality. At least it's consistent.
If one coordinate system DOES embody physical reality while others (like the static Earth model) do not, that abandons Einstein.
As Koheles says: והארץ לעולם עומדת
The Lubavitcher Rebbe was right in what he wrote. He chose the Geocentric framework, in line with Tenach and Chazal. If you want to choose the Heliocentric one, or Mars-centric, or Pluto-centric, or Alpha Centauri-centric, or end-of your nose-centric, you are equally entitled to, according to Relativity.
But in no way can the Geocentric paradigm be said to be "wrong".
(Until you have at least read the article "Geocentrism" in B'Or HaTorah by Dr Avi Rabinowitz, you are showing that you know nothing on this subject).
Lubab:
JDL4ever: If you can't answer these questions adequately, you have not right calling anyone else here a "fool".
1. Is it your position that all of the people Mitlefet cited who have wrote papers on this topic a couple of posts above are also "fools"?
2. Don't you agree that the consensus of today's scientists could be wrong about other issues, such as global warming and who Created the world. Why is it so hard for you to fathom they could be misleading us here too?
3. Most importantly: Can you explain to us please how the scientists go about proving whether the helio-centric or geocentric model is correct? Obviously they start measuring from a partcular focul point, right? How can they prove that their focul point is not also in motion?
-Remember that "those who cannot debate defame" (Rabbi Kahane). So try to answer the points raised instead of calling people names.
-Also remember that personal attacks and name-calling of other members of this forum are not permitted. Debate, don't defame.
Muck DeFuslims:
"Most importantly: Can you explain to us please how the scientists go about proving whether the helio-centric or geocentric model is correct? Obviously they start measuring from a partcular focul point, right? How can they prove that their focul point is not also in motion?"
Whether the focal point is static or not has no bearing on the validity of the observation of the relative motion of two other independent bodies.
For example, it doesn't matter if a space probe is moving away from the Earth and Sun and observing the motion of those two celestial bodies relative to each other.
The probe will see the same thing regardless of whether it is stationary, getting closer to the Earth or moving farther away.
The probe would witness the same motion as it journeyed past Mars.
The probe would still be witnessing the same motion as it traversed past Jupiter.
The probe would still observe the same motion as it left the Solar System.
And what it would see and has seen is the Earth orbiting the Sun.
The denial on this issue is incredible.
Mifletzet:
It is not possible to tell with certitude visually what is going round what. That is Relativity.
To tell with certitude whether the Earth or the universe is rotating, you would have to go outside the universe, and report back in. We believe that we have had this report in the Tenach - אף תכון תבל בל תמוט
This would automatically involve examining the scene from a position that was a stable reference point. But we cannot get outside the universe, even theoretically. How would we know that we are really outside of everything and that our base was really stationary?
Being outside the created physical universe would place us in the position of G-d, which is hardly achievable for mortals, this side of Olam Haba.
The Earth was the first physical object created. It is the sole abode of mankind. It is the focus of Hashem's attention. It the lowest point of the Hishtalshlus chain system of devolving universes, all the way from the highest spiritual universe of Chochmah of Atzilus right down to Asiyah Hagashmi (this physical universe).
But at the same time it is the most important.The Earth has this primacy reflected by being at the spiritual and physical center of Creation.
Einstein's Relativity accepts this as being a 100% acceptable viewpoint.
And if Relativity is ever shown to be wrong, then geocentricty becomes more than just "relatively" acceptable. It becomes absolutely true, as all experiments (Michelson-Morley, Jaseja's lasers, Troughton-Noble torque, Arago, De Coudre's induction, Fizeau, Fresnell drag, Hoek, Jenkins, Klinkerfuess, Kelvin's zero ether drag, Lodge, Mascart, Lord Rayleigh's polarimetry, and the famous "Airy's Failure" experiment) show the Earth to be stationary with respect to the ether!
Lubab:
--- Quote from: Muck DeFuslims on June 11, 2007, 06:50:32 PM ---"Most importantly: Can you explain to us please how the scientists go about proving whether the helio-centric or geocentric model is correct? Obviously they start measuring from a partcular focul point, right? How can they prove that their focul point is not also in motion?"
Whether the focal point is static or not has no bearing on the validity of the observation of the relative motion of two other independent bodies.
For example, it doesn't matter if a space probe is moving away from the Earth and Sun and observing the motion of those two celestial bodies relative to each other.
The probe will see the same thing regardless of whether it is stationary, getting closer to the Earth or moving farther away.
The probe would witness the same motion as it journeyed past Mars.
The probe would still be witnessing the same motion as it traversed past Jupiter.
The probe would still observe the same motion as it left the Solar System.
And what it would see and has seen is the Earth orbiting the Sun.
The denial on this issue is incredible.
--- End quote ---
Um...no. There is no denail here. There are just people who don't yet understand the relativity of motion. I'll try again.
Muck, when you go in that spaceship and you look down on everything, you may indeed see what appears to be the earth revolving around the sun. Problem is that by drawing that conclusion you needed to assume that you and the spaceship are still. There is no way to prove this. It is also possible that you are orbiting around the universe at the exact same speed as the sun. For this reason the earth would appear to you to be moving and the sun would seems stationary.
It is hard to explain this in words. We really need to get together with physical examples, tennis balls and stuff.
But try this on for size:
Have you ever been on a merry-go-round, Muck? Sure you have.
Remember how when you were on it, you and everything on the merry-go round looked like they were still and your family watching you was spinning? Yet, from your familites perspective, the merry-go-round was rotating are they were perfectly still. Who is right? There is no absolute answer.
It's up to you. You can choose to consider the ground stationary and say the merry-go-round is revovling. Or you can choose to say the merry-go-round is the center of the universe and all you guys on earth are the ones spinning. Either way is equally valid mathematically and scientifically. We like to think that just the merry-go round is revolving because we don't consider it so important. But really there's no compelling reason to beleive that.
When you finally understand this you've gonna have a big "Ahahhh...." and you're gonna be very happy. Just think about what's been said in this post.
If you still don't understand: read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Relativity-Great-Minds-Albert-Einstein/dp/0879759798
Skip the mathematical stuff and get into his analogies. They are very helpful.
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