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IsraeliGovtAreKapos:
בס"ד
--- Quote from: Muck DeFuslims on December 23, 2009, 03:14:20 AM ---
--- Quote from: Ron Of Judah on December 22, 2009, 03:24:59 PM --- בס"ד
Since I've agreed to not discuss about Christianity, I wouldn't post the Torahnic view on Jesus. However, I disagree with Zelhar's and Mark's opinion both, the ONLY reason and justification for us to be here is G-D's Promise, in any other way - we're just bunch of occupiers and thieves.
--- End quote ---
Not true.
The religious or Torah justification for the Land of Israel eternally belonging to the Jews is definitely the most important factor, but it is NOT the only one.
There are plenty of historical, legal, military and moral justifications for the existence of Israel.
One need not be religious or believe in the Bible to support the Jewish claim to the Land of Israel (although it sure helps).
With or without Torah justification, there is no legitimacy to the claim that Jews are 'thieves' or 'occupiers', and we should always be very clear about this.
--- End quote ---
Yup? Then HOW do you "morally" (our limited view of moral and ethics) explain the way we've occupied the Land of Israel starting from the days of Yehoshua? The Ca'anites were here long before us.
Muck DeFuslims:
Oh please. The Ca'anites. Don't make me laugh. Is it the Ca'anites that are calling Jews 'occupiers' and 'thieves' ? No. They're long gone. Unless you believe Arabs are Ca'anites.
Besides, by that type of standard virtually every nation on Earth is inhabited by 'occupiers' and 'thieves'.
Sorry, you're wrong. Jews are NOT 'occupiers' or 'thieves' by any legitimate standards, even without Torah justification. Unless of course, you buy into the Arab/Muslim narrative which is a big lie.
IsraeliGovtAreKapos:
בס"ד
--- Quote from: Muck DeFuslims on December 23, 2009, 03:37:04 AM ---Oh please. The Ca'anites. Don't make me laugh. Is it the Ca'anites that are calling Jews 'occupiers' and 'thieves' ? No. They're long gone. Unless you believe Arabs are Ca'anites.
Besides, by that type of standard virtually every nation on Earth is inhabited by 'occupiers' and 'thieves'.
Sorry, you're wrong. Jews are NOT 'occupiers' or 'thieves' by any legitimate standards, even without Torah justification. Unless of course, you buy into the Arab/Muslim narrative which is a big lie.
--- End quote ---
Who said the other nations have any moral justification anyway?? The historical so-called argument is for Le Pen and Heider, not for the Jews.
No, they aren't. But my point is this: the Ca'anites were here long before ourselves. We were in Egypt and Iraq long before Yehoshua. We've reached many places during the Galut, why couldn't have our country in Uganda, Birobidzhan, an island near NY, whatever, WHY Israel? This place is the best place to risk yourself.
PS: No, I don't believe the Arab/Soviet/German/Muslim, but that doesn't change fact that most of our ancestors weren't living in Israel for heck of a long time. Same goes with the Arabs, but still that doesn't give us a historical "right".
Muck DeFuslims:
OK, have it your way.
The Torah justification for Israel is the sole legitimate justification.
The Jewish People don't have any historic, legal, military or moral claims to the land currently known as Israel.
And therefore, anyone that doesn't believe in the Bible would be correct to think of Jews as being occupiers and thieves.
That's because the Ca'anites want (and are entitled to have) their nation back.
Whatever.
IsraeliGovtAreKapos:
בס"ד
--- Quote from: Muck DeFuslims on December 23, 2009, 03:57:36 AM ---OK, have it your way.
The Torah justification for Israel is the sole legitimate justification.
The Jewish People don't have any historic, legal, military or moral claims to the land currently known as Israel.
And therefore, anyone that doesn't believe in the Bible would be correct to think of Jews as being occupiers and thieves.
That's because the Ca'anites want (and are entitled to have) their nation back.
Whatever.
--- End quote ---
Don't be a demagouge. What kind of historical, legal (WT..?), military or moral claims do the Jews have to Israel that cannot be fulflled anywhere else?
Anyone who doesn't believe in the Tanach doesn't believe in the existence of the Jewish people, only a mutation of them.
That's because we, without G-D's promise, have the same "right" on this land just like the Arabs do, they've occupied it too and got back to this land about a 100 years ago.
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