secular reasons to support JTF

[EagleEye]

-Politically, Zionism is a great weapon against Islam.  Let's face it, the Taliban is more obnoxious to secular sensibilities than any Christian or Jewish movement.  The enemy of Sharia law is the friend.
-Political Correctness.  JTF understands third world immigration, Black crime, etc.
-Jews don't have a trackrecord of violence against non-believers and gentiles in the same way that Muslims do.  Even people with Jewish mothers who don't believe don't have to fear being suicide bombed by Jews.
-Jews are usually techno-progressive.
-There is a problem outside of JTF with Jews who have aligned themselves with the liberal left.  By supporting JTF, you are making more political allies.  You are helping to bring Jews back to the right.
-Right wing Nationalists are not "all Nazis."  Many of us believe Hitler did things wrong.

[Confederate Kahanist]

Can argue against any of that.  Very good!!!!

[muman613]

-Politically, Zionism is a great weapon against Islam.  Let's face it, the Taliban is more obnoxious to secular sensibilities than any Christian or Jewish movement.  The enemy of Sharia law is the friend.
-Political Correctness.  JTF understands third world immigration, Black crime, etc.
-Jews don't have a trackrecord of violence against non-believers and gentiles in the same way that Muslims do.  Even people with Jewish mothers who don't believe don't have to fear being suicide bombed by Jews.
-Jews are usually techno-progressive.
-There is a problem outside of JTF with Jews who have aligned themselves with the liberal left.  By supporting JTF, you are making more political allies.  You are helping to bring Jews back to the right.
-Right wing Nationalists are not "all Nazis."  Many of us believe Hitler did things wrong.

i dont know if I agree about several points

1) The secular Israelis really do hate religous Jews and are working to remove them from the land. Zionism is a Jewish ideal which is not the same as Islamophobia or Islam hatred. To use it as such is antisemitic.

2) Mainstream americans don't care about those issues, illegal immigration, etc... Only the rightwingers are in our camp.

3) The mainstream non-observant Jew fears the religious because they know what happened during Chanukah..

5) I really question your understanding when you say something stupid like "Hitler did things wrong".... You think he did things right? Maybe he should have killed Jews but not gotten into politics? I dont understand such a statement. Nazis were wrong on all fronts.

PS: JTF Does support creation of a Torah state in Israel which the left compares to the Taliban, just last week the mainstream media in Israel got in a tizzy because a religous leader spoke of establishing Toranic law...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

1) The secular Israelis really do hate religous Jews and are working to remove them from the land.

This is not the majority of secular Israelis.  Despite the scandals and gangster politics of haredi groups like Shas and UTJ and all the antagonism from haredi Jews, and all the media onslaught against religious Jews, I don't believe that most secular Israelis "hate" religious Jews.   That is a very serious and grave claim to make.   If anything most "secular" Israelis are traditional in some way and not completely off the path.   Of those who are completely off, and of those who truly hate religious Jews, still even only some of these actively work to remove us from the land.   The elites are not necessarily a representation of the masses, and it is the elites who in a very high percentage of cases actively work to remove us from the land of Israel.   This includes most politicians.

3) The mainstream non-observant Jew fears the religious because they know what happened during Chanukah..

I really don't think most Jews, non-observant AND observant know what actually happened in hanukkah.   

5) I really question your understanding when you say something stupid like "Hitler did things wrong".... You think he did things right? Maybe he should have killed Jews but not gotten into politics? I dont understand such a statement. Nazis were wrong on all fronts. 

Completely agree.   "Hitler did things wrong" is probably one of the biggest understatements I've heard in a while, and sounds rather silly... Not to mention suspicious.   Even if you are sincere and have good intentions Eagle Eye, my response to you is unapologetically:  What a dumb thing to say.



I have to say that "Secular" reasons for supporting JTF are pretty flimsy and nonsensical, but go ahead and support.  Good deeds are of value from anyone, even the most confused of people.    But one thing is certain, we cannot have the leadership of the movement be secular because then we would go the way of Likud, Herut etc G-d forbid, since "Secular nationalism" is completely at odds and antithetical to Jewish nationalism, and "secular nationalism" will always bend and twist and give in to compromise on any ideal for the sake of pragmatism and gentlemanly compromise.   Whereas, we Jewish nationalists have a Torah to uphold.

[EagleEye]

The threat of Bolshevism was real but Hitler's errors were to make Jews, Slavs and Gypsies his enemies.  To invade Poland when Poland was anti-Communist.  To invade Russia.

I'm not opposed to an authoritarian state, but I'm opposed to antisemitism.  People with low IQs call all right wingers nazis.  Because I assume that some of the people who read my posts might be idiots, I have to explain that I'm not a Nazi explicitly.

[briann]

There are quite a few secularists in the JTF (myself included).  We did a pole on this, and we were a sizable portion, but obviously in the minority.  That does NOT mean we are athiest, although there are a couple here as well.

But yes, most secular Jews are self-hating Liberals who would HATE this website.

But there are PLENTY of reasons to support this website that are non-religious.  Yes,  Jewish Israel is 1000x more respectable than the nearby savage countries.  It is a free society, and does not brainwash its youth to hate and kill.  Also western society is based upon Judeo-christianity and therefore, if you are culturally conservative, it would follow that you support zionism.

Also, we are generally against open borders, and against an over-obtrusive socialist government, and generally against all forms of liberal fascism which includes global warming hysterics.

[EagleEye]

I'd love you to destroy those people as those people are mainly sharia obsessed theocrats.

It isn't my strategy though.

[muman613]

My biggest question to non-Jews is why should the Jewish people have Israel?

The only reason I think we should be in Israel is because of Torah, and Hashem expressly telling the Jewish people to inhabit the land. If not for the Torah, and the belief in the Master of the Universe, there is no reason Jews should live in Israel. Maybe there should be a 'Jewish' state not in Israel if these Jews don't want to obey the laws given to us from Hashem.

Why should the Jews be in Israel if not for the Torah?

[EagleEye]

I'll give you a frank answer.

1) So Muslims aren't there.
2) Nationalism.  Jews need a nation.  Just like Russians, Poles, Serbs have a nation.  Just like Kurds need a nation.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                                     בס"ד

My biggest question to non-Jews is why should the Jewish people have Israel?

The only reason I think we should be in Israel is because of Torah, and Hashem expressly telling the Jewish people to inhabit the land. If not for the Torah, and the belief in the Master of the Universe, there is no reason Jews should live in Israel. Maybe there should be a 'Jewish' state not in Israel if these Jews don't want to obey the laws given to us from Hashem.

Why should the Jews be in Israel if not for the Torah?

Wonderful massage.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                                 בס"ד               

I'll give you a frank answer.

1) So Muslims aren't there.
2) Nationalism.  Jews need a nation.  Just like Russians, Poles, Serbs have a nation.  Just like Kurds need a nation.

1.) So settle Christians there they want Israel too.
2.) An NYC island is much safer don't u think? Also the Berobijan region atonomy, Eastern Prussia (Kalilingard), etc.
-end of sarcasm-

[EagleEye]

Think pragmatically.

How many Christians want to form a state in Israel to take out radical Islam?

BTW, I differ from JTF in that I'm perfectly fine with right wing American Jews.  I don't "demand" they go to Israel.  But I wish them luck if they do.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                            בס"ד

Think pragmatically.

How many Christians want to form a state in Israel to take out radical Islam?

BTW, I differ from JTF in that I'm perfectly find with right wing American Jews.  I don't "demand" they go to Israel.  But I wish them luck if they do.

Ask the Christians who have already declared a new Crusade.
there's no radical Islam cause there's no moderate Islam.

Also, I still don't care. There's no other place for us, not because of security problems, but because we are OBLIGATED and DESTINED to be in Israel, not anywhere else, ceou tout.

[EagleEye]

I think my views are more similar to "revisionist zionism" and yours and JTF in general "Torah Zionism."

I think its better to be frank about where we stand on these issues, so we can can figure out how much common ground we have.  I believe we have enough common ground to work together at least a bit.  If you disagree, than be frank with me.  I'm being frank with you, but that's so we know where we all stand.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                                   בס"ד

is

I think my views are more similar to "revisionist zionism" and yours and JTF in general "Torah Zionism."

I think its better to be frank about where we stand on these issues, so we can can figure out how much common ground we have.  I believe we have enough common ground to work together at least a bit.  If you disagree, than be frank with me.  I'm being frank with you, but that's so we know where we all stand.

"Revisionist Zionism" is based upon our Divide right to be here, about G-D's Promise to us. "Revisionist Zionism" is not Imperiaism. We're no thieves of land.

All "kinds" of Zionism are based of what our ancestors have cried out every day, "ותחזנה עינינו בשובך לציון ברחמים", is based on Torah. Everything which is not - is just European Militant Imperialism and nothing more.

[muman613]

I'll give you a frank answer.

1) So Muslims aren't there.
2) Nationalism.  Jews need a nation.  Just like Russians, Poles, Serbs have a nation.  Just like Kurds need a nation.

#2 doesnt require us to be in Israel.... That is my point...

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                                בס"ד

I'll give you a frank answer.

1) So Muslims aren't there.
2) Nationalism.  Jews need a nation.  Just like Russians, Poles, Serbs have a nation.  Just like Kurds need a nation.

#2 doesnt require us to be in Israel.... That is my point...

Always remember the Jewish Idea..

[EagleEye]

It doesn't require it, but pragmatically where else?  Do you think you are going to convince 6 million Jews to leave Israel for a state in Russia or Texas?  Remember goals have to be materially achievable.

Also as an "American right wing nationalist," Israel is very useful in my self-interest.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                                            בס"ד

It doesn't require it, but pragmatically where else?  Do you think you are going to convince 6 million Jews to leave Israel for a state in Russia or Texas?  Remember goals have to be materially achievable.

Also as an "American right wing nationalist," Israel is very useful in my self-interest.

It's good your honest and don't say you love Israel but only have interests.
Pragmatically - we had a chance to do so in Uganda, in Siberia, even in India!!! and we don't want and don't need to. There's only Israel, the G-D Promised land.

[muman613]

It doesn't require it, but pragmatically where else?  Do you think you are going to convince 6 million Jews to leave Israel for a state in Russia or Texas?  Remember goals have to be materially achievable.

Also as an "American right wing nationalist," Israel is very useful in my self-interest.

So this is the real reason... Using Israel and the Jews to fight the arabs.... I don't find this idea very good...

[EagleEye]

"Stateless" people get butchered during warfare and tough economic times.  Look at the Gypsies through history and the Kurds during the Iran-Iraq war.  They didn't have a state, and they got butchered.  Look at the Armenians.  They lived outside of Armenia, and the Turks butchered them.  I'm a nationalist and I'm not a hypocrite.  Islam is anti-nationalist.  Muslims believe in global domination through imposing their religion.

Jews are decent people and I don't like to see them murdered.  Jews need a state.  Yes, you can argue why not put the state somewhere else, but Jews have selected Israel and I don't think that's realistically going to change.  If Jews had a state in Europe or America, well I wouldn't judge them on it, but they've clearly chosen Israel.


America is an odd case.  There is no American ethnicity.  So that is why different people do well.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

                                                                  בס"ד

"Stateless" people get butchered during warfare and tough economic times.  Look at the Gypsies through histories and the Kurds during the Iran-Iraq war.  They didn't have a state, and they got butchered.  Look at the Armenians.  They lived outside of Armenia, and the Turks butchered them.  I'm a nationalist and I'm not a hypocrite.  Islam is anti-nationalist.  Muslims believe in global domination through imposing their religion.

Jews are decent people and I don't like to see them murdered.  Jews need a state.  Yes, you can argue why not put the state somewhere else, but Jews have selected Israel and I don't think that's realistically going to change.  If Jews had a state in Europe or America, well I wouldn't judge them on it, but they've clearly chosen Israel.

We didn't say they need to be "Stateless". Jews haven't selected Israel but rather G-D has "selected" it for Us, starting at the days of Avraham Avinu.
What we're talking about is that we are not Imperialists who want to steal land. We want OUR land, and that's Eretz Israel.

[briann]

It doesn't require it, but pragmatically where else?  Do you think you are going to convince 6 million Jews to leave Israel for a state in Russia or Texas?  Remember goals have to be materially achievable.

Also as an "American right wing nationalist," Israel is very useful in my self-interest.

So this is the real reason... Using Israel and the Jews to fight the arabs.... I don't find this idea very good...

You must understand that there is deep meaning for Jews and Christians to Israel.  If you dont understand this and respect it, this may not be the best forum for you.   Same goes with Hindu Zionist... he understands that to us, Israel is not just another piece of land, and we feel the same about his connection to India, and we get along fine.

This is something you must accept to be here.  Its pretty much mandatory.  Thats not to say that we hate you if you dont beleive this, its just that it is really important for each member of JTF that zionism is more than just a practical self-interest.

[briann]

                                                                  בס"ד

"Stateless" people get butchered during warfare and tough economic times.  Look at the Gypsies through histories and the Kurds during the Iran-Iraq war.  They didn't have a state, and they got butchered.  Look at the Armenians.  They lived outside of Armenia, and the Turks butchered them.  I'm a nationalist and I'm not a hypocrite.  Islam is anti-nationalist.  Muslims believe in global domination through imposing their religion.

Jews are decent people and I don't like to see them murdered.  Jews need a state.  Yes, you can argue why not put the state somewhere else, but Jews have selected Israel and I don't think that's realistically going to change.  If Jews had a state in Europe or America, well I wouldn't judge them on it, but they've clearly chosen Israel.

We didn't say they need to be "Stateless". Jews haven't selected Israel but rather G-D has "selected" it for Us, starting at the days of Avraham Avinu.
What we're talking about is that we are not Imperialists who want to steal land. We want OUR land, and that's Eretz Israel.

Well said.  I think EagleEye must understand that this and its importance.

[EagleEye]

I understand it but don't believe it theologically.  I support it, but again, with a totally secular reasoning.

It's better to be honest about this than to play games.

With or without the JTF, my views will remain similar.  I think if you draw a venn diagram, we have enough overlap.