Author Topic: Thoughts on the Israeli conversion laws  (Read 1448 times)

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Offline muman613

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Thoughts on the Israeli conversion laws
« on: July 13, 2010, 06:24:16 PM »
It appears that the dumb reform and conservative movements are bickering about the recent Israeli decision to only allow Orthodox conversions to be considered valid for Israel.... I am all for this law...

Look at this sickening liberal reform 'woman' chirping:

http://www.chron.com/channel/houstonbelief/commons/persona.html?newspaperUserId=rabbiweiss&plckController=PersonaBlog&plckScript=personaScript&plckElementId=personaDest&plckPersonaPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ArabbiweissPost%3Aa83fa5a5-88cd-4f46-a048-4ca4d67a9ca7

Remember when I blogged about Anat Hoffman, the woman who was arrested at The Wall for wearing a tallis?  More ridiculous news-- watch Ms. Hoffman being arrested yesterday for praying at The Wall with . . . A TORAH SCROLL!!!!  Ah, those fabulous Orthodox Jews who are considered the kings of Judaism in Israel.

Worse yet, an urgent update from the Reform movement tells of the legislation before the Israeli Knesset to allow those same "kings" of Israel to be exclusively in charge of conversion issues in Israel, making it impossible for anyone but an Orthodox Jew or a liberal Jew who is forced to adhere to a completely foreign set of adherences to convert or emigrate easily to Israel.

For a group of people who are often anti-Zionist (figure that one out), one would think that they wouldn't care at all about the laws of the land.  No such luck.  Orthodox Jews have a lock on all Jewish funerals and weddings in Israel and now they want to seal the fate of those they judge to be "not Jewish enough" by throwing up obstacle after obstacle to emigration.

What can you do?  Sign the petition and send a letter to Prime Minister Netanyahu to stop the erosion of Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist Jewish rights.  Then go to the Religious Action Center's website and read more about this blatant spitball in the eye of liberal Jews who spend so much time and energy supporting Israel.


This 'woman' wants these heretics to write to Netanyahu to support the rights of such 'jews' to be protected...

When will these supposed Jews realize that there is only ONE Judaism and it is outlined in the Torah. One who rejects a single mitzvah rejects the entire Torah. The phenomenons known as reform and conservative were INVENTED in the 1900s.... The Torah spells out who is a Jew, how to convert, and what a Jew is supposed to do and believe... If you choose not to... You are NOT A JEW and have no place in the Holy Land..

PS: It is humorous that this woman thinks that liberal American Jews support Israel while the Orthodox dont.... I know more Orthodox who regularly visit and live in Israel than any reform or conservative apikorsis.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 06:32:47 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline White Israelite

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Re: Thoughts on the Israeli conversion laws
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2010, 07:12:08 PM »
Actually it's not religious at all but very political, there are many Orthodox Rabbis and conversions that are not recognized by the Chief Rabbinite in Israel, should people like these and there children not be recognized as Jewish? They went through all the trouble to convert and the Rabbinite doesn't accept them unless it's administered under the Chief Rabbinite approved Rabbis in Israel.

Offline muman613

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Re: Thoughts on the Israeli conversion laws
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2010, 07:13:41 PM »
Actually it's not religious at all but very political, there are many Orthodox Rabbis and conversions that are not recognized by the Chief Rabbinite in Israel, should people like these and there children not be recognized as Jewish? They went through all the trouble to convert and the Rabbinite doesn't accept them unless it's administered under the Chief Rabbinite approved Rabbis in Israel.

Why do you say this? What I have read about it indicates that the only conversions which will be accepted will be via Orthodox conversion...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Thoughts on the Israeli conversion laws
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2010, 07:16:19 PM »
This is what A7 published the other day concerning this:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/138554

New Bill: Conversion According to Jewish Law
Av 1, 5770, 12 July 10 06:11
by Hillel Fendel


(Israelnationalnews.com) The Knesset Law Committee approved the first step of a new conversion-to-Judaism law – yet another step in an issue that has been controversial since the establishment of the State. It stipulates, for the first time, that conversions must be according to Jewish Law.

The committee, by a 5-4 vote, allowed the latest conversion proposal to be voted on in the Knesset for its first reading. If the bill passes, it then returns to the committee for emendations, if necessary, followed by two more readings in the Knesset. If it passes these stages, it becomes law.

“This is a most important step,” said Rabbi Chaim Druckman, head of the Yeshivot Bnei Akiva movement and head of the Conversion Administration of the Chief Rabbinate. “For the first time, if this bill is passed, it will be stated in law that only the Chief Rabbinate can authorize conversions.”

Over the course of decades, Chabad-Lubavitch and others have led a campaign to add the words “according to Jewish Law” to the Israeli-legal definition of a Jew – which currently states that he or she is one who was “born of a Jewish mother or converted to Judaism.” This campaign thus appears to be on its way to a successful conclusion.

The latest proposal was promoted by Law Committee Chairman MK David Rotem, a religious-Zionist member of the Yisrael Beiteinu (Israel Our Home) party. It was also supported by MKs Ben-Ari (National Union), Miller and Michaeli (Israel Our Home), and Uri Maklev (United Torah Judaism).

Voting against were Einat Wilf (Labor), Dov Hanin (Hadash), and Shlomo Mola and Yochanan Plesner of Kadima. The Likud MKs on the committee did not show up for the vote.

Rotem explained that the main changes proposed by the bill are the concentration of all conversion authorities in the hands of the Chief Rabbinate, including the ability to authorize Israeli rabbis to perform conversions, and the prevention in most cases of nullifying conversions retroactively.

Reform and Conservative groups in the United States object to the law, in that their ability to perform Israeli-recognized conversions will be curtailed. Jewish Agency head Natan Sharansky, said today is a “black day for world Jewry. Most of United States Jewry feels that this law is a betrayal by Israel of their interests. The changes made to the proposal by the hareidi parties disenfranchise large parts of world Jewry.”

MK Rotem, on the other hand, said, “We are on the way to a revolution in conversion in Israel. We will no longer have retroactive nullifications of conversion [except by the rabbis themselves who performed the conversion in question – ed.], and it will be easier for couples in which one or both parties converted to Judaism to marry without bureaucracy [because local rabbis will be involved – ed.] We have done something very important for absorption of Aliyah in Israel.”

Rotem said he does not understand the Reform and Conservative objections: “The Reform website, as does the Ne’eman Commission, acknowledges that conversion must be done according to Jewish Law (Halakhah). I don’t want to make leniencies in the Jewish laws of conversion; I just want leniencies in the procedural aspects.”

Rotem’s spokesman, however, told Israel National News that the local rabbis are considered to be “less stringent, or should I say, more attuned to the needs and issues of those who come to convert.”

Speaking in the Knesset afterwards, MK Rotem criticized Opposition leader Tzipi Livni for criticizing his bill, “when she doesn’t even know what the bill says.” He said that he will ensure that the bill is presented to the Knesset for its first reading as early as this Wednesday, despite the Prime Minister’s opposition. “I am as concerned about the Prime Minister as I am about Livni,” he said dramatically – and with that he ended his speech. Likud MK Carmel Shama took him to task for his remarks, and the Kadima MKs began heckling Rotem for the upcoming inter-coalition clash they foresee.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline White Israelite

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Re: Thoughts on the Israeli conversion laws
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2010, 08:54:46 PM »
Muman this is what i'm referring to, basically the courts can invalidate a Orthodox conversion if they feel the conversion wasn't sincere and all that mothers children will no longer be considered Jewish under Halacha law, why should the children suffer if a mother is a observing Jewish person and then one day decides to no longer be Jewish? There are so many American families were the father is Jewish and the mother converts Orthodox, the children are Jewish but sometimes the mother returns to her old faith, should the children no longer be considered Jews then or have to undergo conversions? I think that's wrong because the child is supposed to be Jewish if the mother is Jewish.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/135193

Legal Opinion: Rabbinical Court Can Invalidate Conversions
 
by Nissan Ratzlav-Katz
Follow Israel news on  and .


Counsel for the Rabbinical Court System, Rabbi Atty. Shimon Yaakobi, determined in a formal legal opinion that rabbinical courts have the authority to
A fictitious conversion in the context of a Jewish marriage is equivalent to a fictitious marriage license.
rule on the validity of conversions to Judaism, provided that the conversion issue is raised in the context of marriage or divorce proceedings. In Israel, marriage and divorce matters fall under the jurisdiction of the relevant religious courts.

In the 120-page legal opinion, provided at the behest of the Attorney General's Office, Rabbi Atty. Yaakobi argued that a conversion under Jewish law cannot be considered valid if the convert was insincere in accepting religious observance at the time of conversion. An integral and necessary component of conversion, he explained, is accepting the laws of Judaism. Because the rabbinical courts are only authorized to adjudicate family law matters related to couples who are both Jewish, Yaakobi continued, judging the validity of a conversion by one of the sides is a necessary condition to establish the court's jurisdiction. If a non-Jew is found to have made fraudulent declarations at the time of conversion regarding his or her acceptance of Judaism, then he or she remains a non-Jew and hence is not subject to the rabbinical courts.

Under Jewish law, as Yaakobi detailed, fraudulent conversions can be declared in the case of a convert who returns to his or her former lifestyle or rejects Judaic law shortly after the conversion. In such a case, even when the convert was deemed sincere at the time of conversion by a rabbinical conversion court, the legal status of the individual becomes, at best, questionable. Therefore, the person may be required to obtain a formal Jewish bill of divorce on the one hand, but may not be allowed to marry a Jew on the other.


As Yaakobi further points out, the conversion courts in Israel are administrative panels, not legal ones, consisting of rabbis who are not necessarily rabbinical court judges. The task of the conversion courts is to determine a candidate's readiness to convert and to perform the conversion. The subsequent certificate issued by the converting authority, even if it is a rabbinical court in another country, does not automatically confer a legal "assumption of Jewishness", according to Rabbi Atty. Yaakobi, nor does it block further inquiry regarding the convert's good intentions. The certificate is evidence of conversion, but does not establish the authenticity of the conversion itself. Furthermore, as the rabbinical courts are judicial entities under Israeli law, they therefore have the authority to determine the legal validity of administrative documents such as conversion certificates.

Under Jewish law, Yaakobi said, a rabbi is obligated to make his own determination for any issue brought before him based on the facts as he sees them at the time.

In civil law, as well, Yaakobi pointed out, there are cases in which a court can even reverse a legal decision when it is discovered that the decision was issued under false pretenses. Civil courts even have the right to ignore legally binding documents such as marriage licenses if the judges are convinced that the marriage was a fictitious one. In Rabbi Atty. Yaakobi's view, a fictitious conversion in the context of a Jewish marriage is equivalent to a fictitious marriage license abroad in order to obtain automatic Israeli citizenship.

Rabbi Atty. Yaakobi was asked to provide his legal opinion in the context of a case currently before the High Court of Justice in which the justices were asked to overturn a determination of the Rabbinical High Court regarding the conversion of a Danish-Israeli involved in a divorce case. During the couple's initial appearance before a lower rabbinical court, the
Allowances for "easier" mass conversions is a slippery slope, he said.
woman was asked if she observed Jewish law, to which she answered that she did not.

A bill of divorce was nonetheless arranged, according to Jewish law, but a divorce certificate was not issued. The court said that, as the woman is only doubtfully Jewish, there was technically no need for rabbinical divorce proceedings, but, by the same token, the woman and her children cannot marry Jews under Jewish law. The rabbinical court of appeals refused to reverse the lower court's decision and thus the case arrived on the docket of the High Court of Justice.

Rabbi Atty. Yaakobi warned that care must be taken to assure sincere conversions. Allowances for "easier" mass conversions is a slippery slope, he said, leading to a "split status" between rabbinical courts, civil courts and conversion courts, which has a far greater impact: a split within the Jewish people.
(IsraelNationalNews.com)

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: Thoughts on the Israeli conversion laws
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2010, 03:49:33 AM »

This 'woman' wants these heretics to write to Netanyahu to support the rights of such 'jews' to be protected...


I agree that conversions should be demanding if we want them to be sincere and not superficial. I remember a woman I met whose parents were not Jewish (neither the mother nor the father), who decided to "convert". To her, being Jewish implied nothing more than personal self-identification on an emotional level. She wrote a letter to some kind of bogus rabbi in which she literally declared herself Jewish : "I feel Jewish, I am Jewish anyway...", those were her exact terms ! She was not observant at all - no prayers, no shabbes, no visit to a synagogue except on "special occasions" (Yom Kippur !) ... She did not know a word of Hebrew ("too difficult and unnecessary" !). Of course, she "supported" Israel... as long as Labour/Kadima was in power ! (Guess what she thought about the "settlers"...).

You know what ? Her bogus rabbi "converted" her !

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Thoughts on the Israeli conversion laws
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2010, 09:05:28 AM »
It's better for Israel if they let in only Orthodox, it's better for America if Reform leave here for Israel.

Offline White Israelite

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Re: Thoughts on the Israeli conversion laws
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2010, 10:02:55 AM »
I don't disagree that the Reform (at least converts) do not belong in Israel.

The problem here is that the Chief Rabbinite DOES NOT recognize the majority of conversions done abroad. I have heard multiple reasons for this. Some of it is political, some of it is bad standing, and some is due to the Rabbis not being part of the Rabbinical Council Of America.

Mind you that these are Halachic Orthodox conversions that are not recognized abroad. Trust me, my mother had to go through tons of loopholes to properly convert and even then, it's still a grey area. All Orthodox shuls recognize her conversion as proper in the US but the Chief Rabbinite has left it open in the air because of bad standing with one of the Rabbis.

If the Chief Rabbinite were recognizing all Orthodox conversions then I would understand but we're talking nullifying a wifes marriage because they were living in the same house before she converted in some cases. 

Online Zelhar

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Re: Thoughts on the Israeli conversion laws
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2010, 02:30:54 PM »
As far as I know even today non-halachic conversions (should I call them "deformation" ?) are not recognized for purposes of Aliyah permits- even though the law of return doesn't specifically says "conversion according to halacha" it leaves it to the officials to determine if the conversion is indeed valid.

Also for purposes of marriage etc that are under jurisdiction of the chief rabbinate deformations are invalid.

One thing that bagatz has been able to force is that goy citizen who "deforms" must be registered as a Jew in the population registry. It is pretty much insignificant and it means that person's religion entry in his ID says "Jewish" rather than "none" or "other" or whatever they used to put there before bagatz.

Now the reforms are really irrelevant in Israel and they try to sneak into this issue with really for most Israeli public is an inter-orthodox issue because overwhelmingly the Israeli public even the secular goes by orthodox Judaism and Reform and we don't care for all these other brands that look like churches anyway (even though they try to adopt themselves in names and custom to the Israeli public).

The real issue as far as most of the Israelis concern is whether we should allow thousands of goy citizens, mostly Russian Jews from intermarried families, and also children adopted from foreign countries, to undergo a more easy conversion. Basically they want to convert to "secular" Judaism, but most of the rabbis who are in charge of conversions wouldn't make life that easy for them so they make them keep shabat etc.