Author Topic: To risk life, limb & shabbos.....for a Haitian Hamitic ingrate?!  (Read 12942 times)

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Offline wonga66

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Re: To risk life, limb & shabbos.....for a Haitian Hamite?!
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2010, 03:45:13 PM »
If the Israeli teams were clever, they'd hop it out of Haiti before they literally get sliced and diced....and eaten alive!
http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/01/17/prepared-for-landing-in-port-au-prince/



Certain of the Black race can only be helped up by Whites to a point. Once that point has been reached you're on a losing wicket and they have to be left to their own devices & let "natural selection" takeoever, otherwise they will drag you down to death with them.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 03:51:13 PM by wonga66 »

Offline ChaimBenMordechai

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Re: To risk life, limb & shabbos.....for a Haitian Hamite?!
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2010, 06:40:52 PM »
If the Israeli teams were clever, they'd hop it out of Haiti before they literally get sliced and diced....and eaten alive!
http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/01/17/prepared-for-landing-in-port-au-prince/



Certain of the Black race can only be helped up by Whites to a point. Once that point has been reached you're on a losing wicket and they have to be left to their own devices & let "natural selection" takeoever, otherwise they will drag you down to death with them.

Haitians are not that far removed from their "brothers" in Africa.

Just go to South Florida and see.


Offline The One and Only Mo

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Re: To risk life, limb & shabbos.....for a Haitian Hamite?!
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2010, 04:53:24 AM »
I am pretty sure that the Halacha is that a Jew can be mechalel shabbos in a gentile country to save a goy if he is the only one around who can administer help and there are goyim watching, as refraining from helping would cause animosity.

But for these admirable Haredi Zaka fellows to voluntarily fly out from Eretz Yisrael risking their lives and even break shabbos for Negroidal gentile cannabalistic zombie/voodoo worshipping ingrates...?!
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135547



To some this may be a Kiddush Hashem. But there's also a risk of a Chillul Hashem.
Interesting. Haven't thought of this. The ones who went aren't frum, I imagine.

Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

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Re: To risk life, limb & shabbos.....for a Haitian Hamite?!
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2010, 05:18:22 AM »

Lt. Col Henry Opus, of the French Foreign Legion, IDF, and Marines told me it is OK to break shabbat rules if a life may be saved.  He's not a religious Jew [he grew up Orthodox, like many European Jews of his day], but he is a Holocaust survivor [he must be very well acquainted with G-d], and I hold him in high esteem.   

He may be a tremendous tzadik (righteous person) and heroic Jew, but none of this has anything to do with what the Jewish religion says about this issue.   And as much as you or I may like and respect Lt. Col Opus, he cannot personally decide the laws of Judaism.   So unless he is quoting what his rav explained and taught to him, he is clearly not qualified to decide the matter considering he's not religious and likely has not studied it in depth.   If I'm wrong and he's a talmud scholar, fine, but that does not seem to be the case based on what you are saying, and if he is not, there is no business in quoting his opinion.


 
Quote
"He who saves a life, it is as if he has saved the whole world." [Talmud] <-I am looking at joining Magen David Adom when I make Aliyah; this is a phrase they often use.  Given that the whole world is not Jewish, I think it's okay to save that 99% of the world which happens to not be Jewish.

-Maccabees fought on shabbat [to save Jews lives, granted].  I think the first shabbat they got slaughtered, and then from then on out it was decided 7 days a week are needed to "arise earlier than those who would slay you in order to slay them".

--
Am I wrong?  Am I not following in the Holy ways of our G-d?  Life must be precious because G-d cares for it, and G-d creates it...  am I wrong to protect what He values?

Saving a life is a good way to be a "light unto the other nations"?

These are all interesting points, but this is not how a halachic discussion is conducted, and this is not how halacha (Jewish law) is arrived at.   The same Talmud that you cite contains the record of all halachic discussions (along with subsequent authorities and commentary on Talmud) as a continuation of the centralized authority of the Great Sanhedrin that came before it.   The Talmud was sealed in order to unify the halacha, and it is within this vast text that we find the methodology to arriving at the halacha, and we find the codified halacha.   

I guess I simply do not know "it all". ;)

I do my best to attend a 3-hr weekly Torah study, but I know so little about Talmud, other than somewhat well known quotes [like above].

Seems like it would be easier to start reading a set of Encyclopedias than to START being a Talmud scholar.  Even Einstein didn't have it figured out [he said he wish he studied more Talmud in his later days]!

-Can you endorse a reputable place online a guy who has the desire to learn more Talmud can go [what is the real starting point, books like "Talmud for Dummies" have not helped me]?  I do my best to process a daily list of things from Chabad, but no real Talmud study, unless the books I study are actually part of the Talmud [that would sort of be a nice surprise].  My view just does not seem wide enough to "get it" with Talmud.  I, ashamedly, had NO interest in my own religiosity, heritage, or community until about two years ago.
"You must keep the arab under your boot or he will be at your throat" -Unknown

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 “I am all peace, but when I speak, they are for war.” -Psalms 120:7

"The difference between a Jewish liberal and a Jewish conservative is that when a Jewish liberal walks out of the Holocaust Museum, he feels, "This shows why we need to have more tolerance and multiculturalism." The Jewish conservative feels, "We should have killed a lot more Nazis, and sooner."" - Philip Klein

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: To risk life, limb & shabbos.....for a Haitian Hamite ingrate?!
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2010, 05:48:43 AM »
I placed as detailed a question that gentiles and some Jews on this forum can understand in a non-Talmudic language for Chaim for next week about this subject.  Feel free to critique it and I'll adjust it.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

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Offline The One and Only Mo

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Re: To risk life, limb & shabbos.....for a Haitian Hamite ingrate?!
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2010, 06:15:20 AM »
I placed as detailed a question that gentiles and some Jews on this forum can understand in a non-Talmudic language for Chaim for next week about this subject.  Feel free to critique it and I'll adjust it.
shkoyach, achi.

Offline Masha

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Re: To risk life, limb & shabbos.....for a Haitian Hamite ingrate?!
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2010, 06:20:48 AM »
I have also heard the opinion that a Jew should not save a Gentile on a Shabbat. I don't know whether there is a consensus on this point, but I know that this rabbinical opinion does exist. The explanation is the following: if you save a Jew, he would be able to celebrate many more Shabbats.

My take on it is this. The Judaic worldview is based on totally different axioms than our modern secular view. Our modern western perspective is people-centric. Human life is of the paramount significance. It follows from atheist premises that this physical existence is all there is; therefore physical survival is the supreme value - it trumps everything in importance. Judaism takes a more spiritual view. Human life is also very important, but it is not a value in itself: it is important "for the sake of" something else. What this something else is, I am not qualified to answer. Probably the fulfillment of G-d's laws and commandments. When the Sabbath is observed, something of tremendous importance takes place in Heaven and on Earth. The observance of the Sabbath performs the function of the proverbial Atlas who shoulders both the earth and the sky and keeps the world from being destroyed. So it's not that the life of a Gentile is less important than that of a Jew. It is just a commanment-centered view rather than a life-as-a-value-in-itself-centered view. It's not like we can live forever, anyway (in this world).

Offline Masha

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Re: To risk life, limb & shabbos.....for a Haitian Hamite?!
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2010, 06:28:41 AM »
Now that Zaka have put themelves in the world limelight, they are obliged to help out in all circumstances http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/44948/Zaka+Operations+Officer+Flown+Back+from+Haiti.html
Quote
Zaka director Yehuda Meshi-Zahav confirms Weingarten began complaining of excruciating pain about 2 hours following their arrival and doctors made the decision to fly him back home. He added that he was anesthetized by doctors in Shaare Zedek due to the significant pain he was feeling.

Do you think he might be being punished by haShem for breaking the Shabbat?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: To risk life, limb & shabbos.....for a Haitian Hamite?!
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2010, 12:47:10 PM »
I am pretty sure that the Halacha is that a Jew can be mechalel shabbos in a gentile country to save a goy if he is the only one around who can administer help and there are goyim watching, as refraining from helping would cause animosity.

But for these admirable Haredi Zaka fellows to voluntarily fly out from Eretz Yisrael risking their lives and even break shabbos for Negroidal gentile cannabalistic zombie/voodoo worshipping ingrates...?!
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135547



To some this may be a Kiddush Hashem. But there's also a risk of a Chillul Hashem.
Interesting. Haven't thought of this. The ones who went aren't frum, I imagine.

No, ZAKA is an orthodox rescue group from what I understand.

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: To risk life, limb & shabbos.....for a Haitian Hamitic ingrate?!
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2010, 01:06:20 PM »
Let me make a very important point here.  I think that it's nice and fuzzy and all that this orthodox Jewish group goes out there to help the victims of this earthquake..whether sanctioned by Torah or not on Shabbat...I mean the experience they are getting from these rescue operations can also be for, hopefully we never know it nor experience it, if it happens close to home.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

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Offline The One and Only Mo

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Re: To risk life, limb & shabbos.....for a Haitian Hamitic ingrate?!
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2010, 01:16:35 PM »
cough* kill the arabs* cough

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: To risk life, limb & shabbos.....for a Haitian Hamite?!
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2010, 01:20:59 PM »

I do my best to attend a 3-hr weekly Torah study,

That is very praiseworthy, may you go from strength to strength and stick with this very monumental activity.

Quote
but I know so little about Talmud, other than somewhat well known quotes [like above].  

No problem there; no one can be blamed for not knowing yet, and it is a very good quality to be humble and acknowledge that.  The key point is to try to learn which you are doing.  So I commend you.

Quote
Seems like it would be easier to start reading a set of Encyclopedias than to START being a Talmud scholar.  Even Einstein didn't have it figured out [he said he wish he studied more Talmud in his later days]!  

The study of Talmud is indeed a unique activity with its own methodology (dialectics arguments, deriving halachot etc), nuances, language, and technical terms which can be quite foreign to the untrained novice.  To learn the particular methods required to even understand Talmud and its unique learning-style can require a formal training.  And once a person obtains such training, it is no simple matter to then become expert in the various discussions and to coherently arrive at halacha (Jewish law) from within the texts on complicated matters.   Indeed a true expert in Talmud is a very rare and precious contributor within the Jewish world.

Quote
-Can you endorse a reputable place online a guy who has the desire to learn more Talmud can go [what is the real starting point, books like "Talmud for Dummies" have not helped me]?  I do my best to process a daily list of things from Chabad, but no real Talmud study, unless the books I study are actually part of the Talmud [that would sort of be a nice surprise].  My view just does not seem wide enough to "get it" with Talmud.  I, ashamedly, had NO interest in my own religiosity, heritage, or community until about two years ago.

It's really great that you are interested.  I myself was also raised ignorant and with an imitation/phony so-called 'reform Judaism' which I realized later in life was clearly unsuitable and inauthentic.   My best recommendation would be to find a rabbi at the local yeshiva or orthodox synagogue nearby (if there is one near you) and speak to him about your situation that you are a novice and you would love to learn Talmud (and to learn how to learn Talmud), and if he will help you or if there is anyone available who is looking to tutor or teach a Jew who is less learned/experienced.   Often there will be someone who is looking to teach people or at least looking to do some outreach.

Other than that it may be that learning in a 'baal teshuvah' yeshiva for a few months or a year if possible would be the best way to catch on to Torah-learning quickly, since there they focus on teaching people who did not grow up with it.  There are also some very good shorter-term programs for beginners (not actual yeshiva, but gives you a taste of yeshiva, the learning there and the schedule, etc, especially Talmud learning) that I would HIGHLY recommend if you have time to take off from work/school temporarily to devote to Torah study.

Here are some links:  

http://www.machonshlomosummer.com/index.asp  
STEP program which runs about 3-4 weeks, in Yerushalayim.

http://www.yeshivalite.com/
Also about 3-4 weeks also in Yerushalayim ir hakodesh.

I know there are more programs out there as well for instance or sameach in monsey, or sameach in Yerushalayim, Aish Ha Torah in yerushalayim, etc.

It depends where you live, what your situation is.  Are you currently a student?  College?  Working?  

And I would recommend "Daf Yomi" but that may be tough if you have never learned Talmud before.  On the other hand it is in English and explained so it might help you become accustomed to the style of the Talmud if you learn that with the text in front of you.   There are websites that provide this material, both audio files and the text for that day.

Hope this helps.

Offline Zelhar

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Re: To risk life, limb & shabbos.....for a Haitian Hamite?!
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2010, 01:26:30 PM »
If someone is in need of help i will help except most muslims

I think I would do the same. I couldn't help a Muslim, a Nazi or even their supporters, but with other people I think I would have mercy, althrough perhaps I don't like them.
I must say I would rescue a drowning muslim. Only if I knew for certain that the specific person drowning is so evil he deserves to die, would I not rescue him.

Offline IsraeliGovtAreKapos

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Re: To risk life, limb & shabbos.....for a Haitian Hamite?!
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2010, 01:28:01 PM »
                                                   בס"ד

If someone is in need of help i will help except most muslims

I think I would do the same. I couldn't help a Muslim, a Nazi or even their supporters, but with other people I think I would have mercy, althrough perhaps I don't like them.
I must say I would rescue a drowning muslim.

Are you totally nuts

Offline Zelhar

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Re: To risk life, limb & shabbos.....for a Haitian Hamite?!
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2010, 01:29:54 PM »
                                                   בס"ד

If someone is in need of help i will help except most muslims

I think I would do the same. I couldn't help a Muslim, a Nazi or even their supporters, but with other people I think I would have mercy, althrough perhaps I don't like them.
I must say I would rescue a drowning muslim.

Are you totally nuts
Why do you omit the second sentence with my reasoning ?

Offline IsraeliGovtAreKapos

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Re: To risk life, limb & shabbos.....for a Haitian Hamite?!
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2010, 01:32:09 PM »
                                                 בס"ד

                                                   בס"ד

If someone is in need of help i will help except most muslims

I think I would do the same. I couldn't help a Muslim, a Nazi or even their supporters, but with other people I think I would have mercy, althrough perhaps I don't like them.
I must say I would rescue a drowning muslim.

Are you totally nuts
Why do you omit the second sentence with my reasoning ?

Wait wait was it meant to be sarcastic?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: To risk life, limb & shabbos.....for a Haitian Hamitic ingrate?!
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2010, 01:32:35 PM »
I asked my rabbi about this issue in shiur today, and he said the ZAKA group definitely is justified to go over there and save people by breaking Shabbat for several reasons.  (I told him ZAKA is an orthodox rescue unit).   On the one hand, he said that the major acharonim pasken that nowadays Jews can break Shabbat to save a gentile's life because of a factor of "fear"  which overrides the otherwise prohibition to break Shabbat.   The fear is that not doing so could make gentiles angry with us, which we don't want gentiles to hate us obviously, and therefore they may take revenge by refusing to treat Jews.  So in effect you are getting Jews killed by refraining to help gentiles, even though the sanctity of Shabbat is paramount and almost unnegotiable.   That would give you a permission to break Shabbat.   

There is also plenty of room for logical deductions such as the fact that since every nation or at least many nations are sending delegations over there to help, if Israel is the only one who does not, it can cause the civilized nations of the world to put pressure on us or help our enemies the Arabs, or it could motivate the Arabs to hate us more and spread their Jew-hating propaganda to kill us.   So this also can be used reasonably in this case in his opinion, in addition to the fact that later authorities rule it's permissible anyway. 

[Also, there is a shita (opinion), and which rishon it was now escapes me so I don't want to say who until I get the name straight,  but there is an opinion that exists that all of those gemaras are speaking about *actual idol worshippers, not just all non-Jews.   That to break Shabbat to save a life of a non-Jew would be permitted if the non-Jew is not an idol worshipper.   The difficulty in applying that here is that it seems Haitians are into voodoo and other strange things.   So that may not be applicable.]

But aside from all of this there is one basic fact that makes this very clear that ZAKA is justified in what they are doing even from the earliest authorities.    The gemara paskens according to Shmuel, that even in a case where the city is a majority of gentiles, even if there is a single Jew that lives there, you have to break Shabbat to save the guy (whose identity you don't know).    Since there were a handful of Israelis (Jews) in Haiti at the time (even one suffices), then they are permitted to break Shabbat there and save people.   

I'm not sure if all the Israelis who were there have been accounted for yet, but even regardless of this, just the fact that there was a single Jew in that place allows you to break Shabbat to save the people (all of them) from dying.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 02:06:17 PM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: To risk life, limb & shabbos.....for a Haitian Hamitic ingrate?!
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2010, 01:38:42 PM »
I request that this thread be moved to the Judaism section.   I would like to explain my Talmud rabbi's answer in depth, although I'm less comfortable doing so in the main forum since it's a detailed discussion of the Oral law, and I feel this is more appropriate in the Judaism section.    It may be that there is no problem anyway, but since I am not expert about what I can or can't explain in a public forum, I'd rather be more cautious and at least have this in the Judaism section.

Thank you for moving.   I have posted a summary of my rabbi's response above.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 01:57:34 PM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline Zelhar

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Re: To risk life, limb & shabbos.....for a Haitian Hamite?!
« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2010, 01:39:09 PM »
                                                 בס"ד

                                                   בס"ד

If someone is in need of help i will help except most muslims

I think I would do the same. I couldn't help a Muslim, a Nazi or even their supporters, but with other people I think I would have mercy, althrough perhaps I don't like them.
I must say I would rescue a drowning muslim.

Are you totally nuts
Why do you omit the second sentence with my reasoning ?

Wait wait was it meant to be sarcastic?
No.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: To risk life, limb & shabbos.....for a Haitian Hamitic ingrate?!
« Reply #44 on: January 18, 2010, 04:55:24 PM »
bli neder, I will also pose the question to Rabbi David Bar Hayim, since that was requested.

Offline Masha

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Re: To risk life, limb & shabbos.....for a Haitian Hamite?!
« Reply #45 on: January 19, 2010, 04:27:33 AM »
Zaka is a Jerusalem-based emergency response team run by righteous Orthodox Jews. What they are doing is a true virtue and they surely know Jewish law (Halacha) better than this lowlife scum wonga66. wonga's comments are full of venom and incitement, just ignore them.

Well, Spectator, perhaps you should go and listen to Chaim's commentary on Haiti earthquake and the stupid Jewish organizations who rushed to help there before you insult wonga66.

Offline Spectator

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Re: To risk life, limb & shabbos.....for a Haitian Hamite?!
« Reply #46 on: January 19, 2010, 04:26:51 PM »
Zaka is a Jerusalem-based emergency response team run by righteous Orthodox Jews. What they are doing is a true virtue and they surely know Jewish law (Halacha) better than this lowlife scum wonga66. wonga's comments are full of venom and incitement, just ignore them.

Well, Spectator, perhaps you should go and listen to Chaim's commentary on Haiti earthquake and the stupid Jewish organizations who rushed to help there before you insult wonga66.

If you are talking about overall Jewish/Israeli help to Haiti, I agree with you. Moreover, as an Israeli I question  disproportionately great help of Israel to the Haiti residents and, even more, the exaggerated importance Israeli leftist media give to this earthquake and our participation in the issue. I guess it is nothing more than self-hating desire to find favor with the gentiles.

However, this thread is not about the mainstream but the specific rescue team, Zaka. We must take into account two facts:

1) These guys are often the first ones who arrive to the place of catastrophe (mainly terrorist acts in Israel). Some of them are paramedics who save lives, some collect corpses (or body parts), take proper care of them, and prepare to bury them according to Halacha. This alone gives Zaka much respect.

2) They are Orthodox Jews who perfectly know what must and must not be done in such extreme conditions according to Halacha. They are consulted by important rabbis.

8 Israelis were missing after the earthquake. Also, there were reports about missing diaspora Jews. So Zaka operatives went there to search and help them. Now if they were only helping Jews and ignoring Gentiles, this would certainly arouse hatred and animosity towards Jews. And even the Halachic opinion you mentioned in your recent post that states we are not obliged to save gentile's life, agrees that we must do it if there is a suspicion of animosity in case of refusal. Let alone the fact that there is another Sage who says that we only must not save life of a true idolator (Haiti-style stupid superstitions are not true idolatry), and in case of a regular gentile - we are obliged to save his life. All this gives Zaka more than enough reasons to work in Haiti. I also guess they have other reasons I am not aware of.

-----------------------------------------

Now about wonga. My problem with him is not because I disagree with what he says. The real problem is the fact that he constantly presents his own claims as Halacha (religious law) and Hashkafa (religious worldview). And he does that either

- to encourage antisemitic stereotypes by claiming or implying that Judaism views gentiles as worthless filth whose lives aren't worth a penny (which is simply not true - there is big difference between G-d's commandment to live separately and care for fellow Jews first and foremost and what wonga says).

- to defame certain rabbi (for example rabbi Melamed) or an organization (for example Zaka), or a community (for example Haredim), in short - create division and tension among the Orthodox Jews, to sharpen and exaggerate differences between them.

Both these things harm Jewish people immensely.

I hope this clarifies.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 04:40:37 PM by Spectator »
Do not put your trust in princes, nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help (Psalms 146:3)

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: To risk life, limb & shabbos.....for a Haitian Hamitic ingrate?!
« Reply #47 on: January 19, 2010, 04:35:57 PM »
As long as there is even one single Jew not accounted for, they are obligated to save every possible person from within the rubble and even break Shabbat to do so.   Once missing Jews are all accounted for, then that becomes a different issue.   My gemara rabbi sides with Rav Moshe Feinstein and other acharonim who rules that we do break Shabbat to save the non-Jew nowadays.    There is room to disagree since that is a modern innovative psak, and Rav Bar Hayim disagrees with that psak.    He holds that if there are only gentiles then it is good to go and help them but we cannot break Shabbat to do so.   So on Shabbat they would have to help in ways that do not involve desecrating the Shabbat or otherwise sit out for a while.

Offline Spectator

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Re: To risk life, limb & shabbos.....for a Haitian Hamitic ingrate?!
« Reply #48 on: January 19, 2010, 05:28:45 PM »
As long as there is even one single Jew not accounted for, they are obligated to save every possible person from within the rubble and even break Shabbat to do so.   Once missing Jews are all accounted for, then that becomes a different issue.   My gemara rabbi sides with Rav Moshe Feinstein and other acharonim who rules that we do break Shabbat to save the non-Jew nowadays.    There is room to disagree since that is a modern innovative psak, and Rav Bar Hayim disagrees with that psak.    He holds that if there are only gentiles then it is good to go and help them but we cannot break Shabbat to do so.   So on Shabbat they would have to help in ways that do not involve desecrating the Shabbat or otherwise sit out for a while.

Thank you for summing this up.
Do not put your trust in princes, nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help (Psalms 146:3)

Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

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Re: To risk life, limb & shabbos.....for a Haitian Hamitic ingrate?!
« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2010, 10:18:45 PM »
How could we ever be sure a victim was not a member of the "Lost Ten Tribes"!  :)
"You must keep the arab under your boot or he will be at your throat" -Unknown

"When we tell the Arab, ‘Come, I want to help you and see to your needs,’ he doesn’t look at us like gentlemen. He sees weakness and then the wolf shows what he can do.” - Maimonides

 “I am all peace, but when I speak, they are for war.” -Psalms 120:7

"The difference between a Jewish liberal and a Jewish conservative is that when a Jewish liberal walks out of the Holocaust Museum, he feels, "This shows why we need to have more tolerance and multiculturalism." The Jewish conservative feels, "We should have killed a lot more Nazis, and sooner."" - Philip Klein