Please help!

[Raulmarrio2000]

Rubystars, we are not discussing if he deserves more clemency for being a Jew. What we are discussing is whether Jews should be more concerned and ask for clemency for one of their brethren. Certainly, under equal circumnstances, people generally care more about those related to them. In the same way as we would help any relative who is in need, and that doesn't mean that we claim that others in the same situation in a far away country deserve less help.

Ulli, I am not biassed. If I had to decide for a Somali with a 77 IQ I'd also sign clemency.

[Rubystars]

It's true that you should generally give people the benefit of the doubt if they are from your own group as a sign of loyalty. However once it's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that someone is guilty of a heinous crime, is it still right to defend them?

[Raulmarrio2000]

He had a gun in his hand and willfully let her confiscate it. If he had planned a murder, why didn't he use his own gun? And struggling with her after she had alredy produced her gun and shot was also dangerous for him. It's clear that he acted on panic, probably under the effect of medication or under a crisis due to his disease.

[Cato]

He had a gun in his hand and willfully let her confiscate it. If he had planned a murder, why didn't he use his own gun? And struggling with her after she had alredy produced her gun and shot was also dangerous for him. It's clear that he acted on panic, probably under the effect of medication or under a crisis due to his disease.

He has been found guilty of murder in the country in which he chose to live. Repeated appeals failed to overturn this verdict. I cannot understand what there is to discuss, unless you really are hinting that Jews in the US should not have to share the same legal system as Gentiles.

[eb22]

He had a gun in his hand and willfully let her confiscate it. If he had planned a murder, why didn't he use his own gun? And struggling with her after she had alredy produced her gun and shot was also dangerous for him. It's clear that he acted on panic, probably under the effect of medication or under a crisis due to his disease.

He has been found guilty of murder in the country in which he chose to live. Repeated appeals failed to overturn this verdict. I cannot understand what there is to discuss, unless you really are hinting that Jews in the US should not have to share the same legal system as Gentiles.

Of course the legal system should be the same for U.S. citizens regardless of their religion,   race,   creed,   etc.


Having said that,    how many 19 year olds with an IQ of 77  ( assuming his IQ is indeed 77 )  are capable of re-locating to another country on their own or even thinking on the level that they would want to re-locate?     Basically,    part of this equation involving the IQ of 77 info is very difficult to overlook.           

[Ulli]

It's true that you should generally give people the benefit of the doubt if they are from your own group as a sign of loyalty. However once it's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that someone is guilty of a heinous crime, is it still right to defend them?

I think yes.

If a Muslim would have done such a crime in my country he would have set free after 3-4 years on parole. But if one of us would do the same crime he wouldn't see daylight again, like this poor Jew. There are explicit orders given to the courts and persecution officers to do so [1]. Why should we sacrify our people for so called "unbiased justice" if there is no justice at all? I hate the gouvernment and even a murderer from my own group or an allied group (as far he don't want to murder me or my friends) I love more than this bolschewik lying system of crooks. Now you know it.

[1] http://www.pi-news.net/2010/02/nrw-schoeffe-bestaetigt-migrantenbonus/

[Cato]

Having said that,    how many 19 year olds with an IQ of 77  ( assuming his IQ is indeed 77 )  are capable of re-locating to another country on their own or even thinking on the level that they would want to re-locate?     Basically,    part of this equation involving the IQ of 77 info is very difficult to overlook.           

On this basis, most US blacks would be exempt from execution.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Apart from the fact that Israel protects Arabs more than Jews, there are other reason why Israeli Govt. today cannot be considered a Torah based one. Torah Obeservant Jews are discriminated in many ways. If you want to work on the radio or TV, they make yopu work during Shabbat. Abortion is not properly prevented. About 50,000 unborn children are executed in Israel through abortion and the Govt does nothing.

What does any of this have to do with Arabs and Israeli Bolsheviks?

This is a vile, scumbag murderer who is in my opinion even worse than an Arab. Arabs are like wild animals who don't know any better. This is a Jew who committed a premeditated, cold-blooded murder.

[eb22]

Having said that,    how many 19 year olds with an IQ of 77  ( assuming his IQ is indeed 77 )  are capable of re-locating to another country on their own or even thinking on the level that they would want to re-locate?     Basically,    part of this equation involving the IQ of 77 info is very difficult to overlook.           

On this basis, most US blacks would be exempt from execution.

I disagree.       It's hard to imagine most U.S. Blacks having an IQ below 80.       There are many blacks who commit crimes who have average or even above average IQ's.    An example of this is the blacks who con people out of money in "   3 card Monte" games.     There's absolutely no way that someone with an IQ below 80 can effectively manipulate a " 3 Card Monte"   game.         

[Masha]

Before a not so long time ago, I shared your oppinion on this issue, but I think it is wrong. We have to be biased in order to survive. Ruby, the times that are coming will be very hard. I see it.

That's an interesting point, Ulli.

P.S. I don't have an opinion about this particular case.

[Masha]

Having said that,    how many 19 year olds with an IQ of 77  ( assuming his IQ is indeed 77 )  are capable of re-locating to another country on their own or even thinking on the level that they would want to re-locate?     Basically,    part of this equation involving the IQ of 77 info is very difficult to overlook.           

On this basis, most US blacks would be exempt from execution.

I disagree.       It's hard to imagine most U.S. Blacks having an IQ below 80.       There are many blacks who commit crimes who have average or even above average IQ's.    An example of this is the blacks who con people out of money in "   3 card Monte" games.     There's absolutely no way that someone with an IQ below 80 can effectively manipulate a " 3 Card Monte"   game.         

There have been a lot of studies about the connection between IQ and criminal tendencies. There IS a very strong correlation. The lower the IQ, the more likely the person is to be a criminal.

The IQ of American Blacks is 80 or 85 (depending on the study. THe IQ of Africans is 70.

[Raulmarrio2000]

I think if you commit a crime against other people then other people have a right to hold you accountable for it. It's up to the other people that you sinned against to show you mercy or not. Of course it's a good thing to show mercy in many cases, but in some cases, such as a vicious murder, showing mercy to the perpetrator betrays the victims of the crime. Justice needs to be served.

According to the NT in which you are supposed to believe, not only private sins have been pardoned but also sins against others. Paul killed many Christians and was forgiven and made an Apostle and even a Saint (in those Churches who revere Saints)

[GoIsraelGo!]

My take on this...... if G-d wants him to live, he will not be executed. If G-d wants him to die, he will be executed. 

Sometimes we forget that G-d can intervien at any time, and if G-d does not, it was meant to be.




                                               Shalom - Dox




                                                 

[eb22]

Having said that,    how many 19 year olds with an IQ of 77  ( assuming his IQ is indeed 77 )  are capable of re-locating to another country on their own or even thinking on the level that they would want to re-locate?     Basically,    part of this equation involving the IQ of 77 info is very difficult to overlook.           

On this basis, most US blacks would be exempt from execution.

I disagree.       It's hard to imagine most U.S. Blacks having an IQ below 80.       There are many blacks who commit crimes who have average or even above average IQ's.    An example of this is the blacks who con people out of money in "   3 card Monte" games.     There's absolutely no way that someone with an IQ below 80 can effectively manipulate a " 3 Card Monte"   game.         

There have been a lot of studies about the connection between IQ and criminal tendencies. There IS a very strong correlation. The lower the IQ, the more likely the person is to be a criminal.

The IQ of American Blacks is 80 or 85 (depending on the study. THe IQ of Africans is 70.

A study that I came across several hours ago mentioned that the average IQ of American Blacks is 85.    I'm skeptical of these results,   if going under the assumption of measuring pure intelligence.       The cultural factor with the majority of blacks could easily lead to the results in an IQ test being lower than the actual IQ.      An example of the cultural factor is from Chaim's commentary regarding an Ice Cream Shop.      Especially regarding the black individual who watched the other black individual lick the ice cream.      Based on Chaim's description of that individual,   I wouldn't be surprised in the least if his tested IQ measured 10 to 15 points lower than his actual natural intelligence:


http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,43051.0.html

[eb22]

My take on this...... if G-d wants him to live, he will not be executed. If G-d wants him to die, he will be executed. 

Sometimes we forget that G-d can intervien at any time, and if G-d does not, it was meant to be.




                                               Shalom - Dox




                                                 

Dox,    I agree that G-d can intervene at any time.    Yet,    for those of us like myself who belief that Martin Grossman should get a clemency hearing to determine if life in prison is a more appropriate sentence than execution,    I don't think we can depend on miracles.      This is a world of action.

[Rubystars]

I think if you commit a crime against other people then other people have a right to hold you accountable for it. It's up to the other people that you sinned against to show you mercy or not. Of course it's a good thing to show mercy in many cases, but in some cases, such as a vicious murder, showing mercy to the perpetrator betrays the victims of the crime. Justice needs to be served.

According to the NT in which you are supposed to believe, not only private sins have been pardoned but also sins against others. Paul killed many Christians and was forgiven and made an Apostle and even a Saint (in those Churches who revere Saints)

He made it up to the Christian people in some ways by doing a lot of important work after that. Don't you see that the others had to accept him as a leader in order for this to happen?

[t_h_j]

its happening today at 6 pm

[eb22]

Thank you to Pope Benedict XVI for your efforts in trying to grant Martin Grossman the opportunity for a clemency hearing:



http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/180712

Last-Minute Push to Save Martin Grossman's Life


Reported: 18:41 PM - Feb/16/10



(IsraelNN.com)
Pope Benedict XVI has joined the growing number of public officials asking for leniency for Martin Edward Grossman, scheduled to be executed in Florida on Tuesday for the 1984 murder of Margaret Parks, a 26-year-old wildlife park officer in Florida.

In a letter to Florida Governor Charlie Crist, Archbishop Fernando Filoni, writing on behalf of the Pope, said that Grossman "has repented and is now a changed person, having become a man of faith," and asked for "whatever steps may be possible to save the life of Mr. Grossman.''

With time growing short, a team of top attorneys made a final case for a stay of execution on Tuesday morning, based on the fact that Grossman was mentally impaired and that the murder was not premeditated. Efforts are still being made to seek an 11th-hour stay of execution for Grossman from Governor Crist. A phone number has been publicized at which the governor can be reached in the coming hours - 850-488-5603 - and asked to spare the life of Martin Grossman.

His Hebrew name is Michoel Yechiel ben Miriam Sorah.

Other public figures who have come to the defense of Grossman include Nobel laureate Elie Wiesel and Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz, as well as the Chief Rabbis of Israel. The execution is scheduled for 6 PM Eastern time Tuesday.

[eb22]

This is the letter that Florida Gov. Charlie Crist sent me and everyone else who wrote to him asking for a Clemency Hearing for Martin Grossman.     Unless Charlie Crist has a change of heart in the next 2 minutes,   his days as an elected official are coming to an end: 

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/48607/Gov+Crist+Responds+To+Emails+About+Grossman+-+30+Minutes+Before+Execution.html

Gov Crist Responds To Emails About Grossman – 30 Minutes Before Execution
February 16, 2010 5:30PM EST: Thousands of people have been emailing Florida Governor Crist about Martin Grossman for the past week. A response has just been emailed out by the Governor – just 30 minutes before the scheduled execution. YWN has received hundreds of emails from readers who have just received the response posted below:

Thank you for contacting me and sharing your concerns about the execution of Martin Grossman.

On December 13, 1984, Mr. Grossman violated the terms of his probation by leaving Pasco County and having a stolen firearm in his possession. In a routine stop, Florida Fish and Wildlife Officer Margaret Park found the weapon.  When she reached for the radio in her patrol car to report him, Mr. Grossman attacked her with her own large flashlight, beating her over the head and shoulders 20 to 30 times. When Officer Park tried to fight back, Mr. Grossman took her .357 Magnum revolver and shot her in the back of the head, killing her.

Mr. Grossman took several carefully planned steps to cover up this horrible crime. The weapon was buried, and Mr. Grossman attempted to burn his clothes and shoes, which were later disposed of in a nearby lake. The following day, Mr. Grossman thoroughly cleaned the van and changed its tires to mislead law enforcement.

Officer Park’s autopsy revealed lacerations on top of her head, hemorrhaging inside the scalp and extensive fracturing of the skull.  All of these injuries resulted from Mr. Grossman’s attack. The facts of this crime clearly meet the definition of heinous, atrocious and cruel, and his actions afterward demonstrate his well-reasoned attempts to cover it up.

The courts have fully reviewed Mr. Grossman’s legal claims, and his conviction and sentence have been affirmed by both the Florida Supreme Court and the United States Supreme Court. Based on the facts and exhaustion of legal proceedings, and in accordance with Florida law, I signed his death warrant on January 12, 2010.

Thank you again for taking the time to contact me.

[JTFenthusiast2]

It's 6:01 PM.  I'm not sure they did the right or the wrong thing.

[Rubystars]

Ulli I've been thinking a lot about what you said and I have to admit you have a point.

The establishment will never treat whites fairly and gives enemies such as Muslims an unfair advantage in the justice system.

However I think if someone is proven to have done something wrong it really depends on the degree of how severe it is whether or not I would still have sympathy for them. If someone was "guilty" of "murdering" Muslims I would feel very differently than if someone was guilty of murdering innocent little children or murdering Christians or Jews.

[Raulmarrio2000]

I don't know how clemency is exaclty understood in Florida, but if it is meant for special cases regardless the trial circumstances (as it is here in Argentina - for some life sentencies, not capital because it does not exist), being that the power was entrusted to the Executive by the people, blocking that clemncy arbitrarily might render them guilty of murder before Heaven.