Author Topic: Neanderthal converts?  (Read 10960 times)

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Offline rhayat1

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Neanderthal converts?
« on: February 17, 2010, 12:25:11 PM »
This is a silly thread/question, meant (obviously) to be a thought experiment.  If they ever do clone Neanderthals back into existence, would they be able to convert?  Also, would they be obligated to keep the Noahide laws?

Offline muman613

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Re: Neanderthal converts?
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2010, 01:49:04 PM »
This is a silly thread/question, meant (obviously) to be a thought experiment.  If they ever do clone Neanderthals back into existence, would they be able to convert?  Also, would they be obligated to keep the Noahide laws?

Duh... No... If they are not Human then they have no commandments, no obligation to obey Hashem.... What kind of question is this?
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline rhayat1

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Re: Neanderthal converts?
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2010, 01:56:27 PM »
But they were Human - at least according to many scientific opinions.  Just not the same kind of Human as us.

Offline muman613

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Re: Neanderthal converts?
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2010, 03:13:30 PM »
But they were Human - at least according to many scientific opinions.  Just not the same kind of Human as us.

I believe that they are not the same species as humans, though they are from the same genus {Homo}...

Here is the wiki blurb:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal
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The Neanderthal (pronounced /ni(ː)ˈændərtɑːl/, /ni(ː)ˈændərθɔːl/), or /neɪˈændərtɑːl/),[1] also spelled Neandertal,[2] is an extinct member of the Homo genus that is known from Pleistocene specimens found in Europe and parts of western and central Asia. Neanderthals are either classified as a subspecies of humans (Homo sapiens neanderthalensis) or as a separate species (Homo neanderthalensis).[3] The first proto-Neanderthal traits appeared in Europe as early as 600,000–350,000 years ago.[4]


According to the wiki page they also were cannibalistic, eating their own:

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Neanderthals hunted large animals, such as the mammoth. Stone-tipped wooden spears were used for hunting and stone knives and poleaxes were used for butchering the animals or as weapons. However, they are believed to have practiced cannibalism, or ritual defleshing. This hypothesis has been represented after researchers found marks on Neanderthal bones similar to the bones of a dead deer butchered by Neanderthals.

Intentional burial and the inclusion of grave goods are the most typical representations of ritual behavior in the Neanderthals and denote a developing ideology. However, another much debated and controversial manifestation of this ritual treatment of the dead comes from the evidence of cut-marks on the bone which has 'historically been viewed' as evidence of ritual defleshing.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Neanderthal converts?
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2010, 03:19:23 PM »
I also believe they are extinct for a reason... Hashem has no need for this species so it was made extinct...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline White Israelite

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Re: Neanderthal converts?
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2010, 03:31:30 PM »
I also believe they are extinct for a reason... Hashem has no need for this species so it was made extinct...



Are you sure they are extinct? I've seen a few people that look a lot like them X_X

Offline rhayat1

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Re: Neanderthal converts?
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2010, 08:30:47 PM »
I also believe they are extinct for a reason... Hashem has no need for this species so it was made extinct...



Oh great!  That's just wonderful.  Then I'm getting my rifle and going Spotted Owl hunting.  After they're all dead, I just say, "Hashem had no need for that species so it was made extinct".

Offline muman613

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Re: Neanderthal converts?
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2010, 09:01:10 PM »
I also believe they are extinct for a reason... Hashem has no need for this species so it was made extinct...



Oh great!  That's just wonderful.  Then I'm getting my rifle and going Spotted Owl hunting.  After they're all dead, I just say, "Hashem had no need for that species so it was made extinct".

Humans did not hunt neanderthals... I fail to see your comparison.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline rhayat1

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Re: Neanderthal converts?
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2010, 06:59:37 AM »
I also believe they are extinct for a reason... Hashem has no need for this species so it was made extinct...



Oh great!  That's just wonderful.  Then I'm getting my rifle and going Spotted Owl hunting.  After they're all dead, I just say, "Hashem had no need for that species so it was made extinct".

Humans did not hunt neanderthals... I fail to see your comparison.



Extinct is extinct - also, it is quite possible that modern humans did hunt Neanderthals.  That modern Humans lead to the extinction of the Neanderthals, through our actions, is almost a certainty.

Incidentally, there is no clear morphological distinction between "modern humans" and Neanderthals.  What one poster wrote in jest ("are they really extinct?") could be a serious question.

Offline Cato

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Re: Neanderthal converts?
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2010, 09:39:50 AM »
Humans did not hunt neanderthals... I fail to see your comparison.
Probably humans both hunted and bred with Neanderthals. Just as they did with the bushmen in southern Africa (and higher up, which is how the Bantu gained malaria resistance which allowed them to migrate south). Also, cannibalism was/is widespread among humans still, most recently having saved the lines of many plane crash survivors in the Andes.

I also believe they are extinct for a reason... Hashem has no need for this species so it was made extinct...

Muman, I respect your knowledge and really do not wish to be provocative in saying this, but how can you be confident about how or why G-d behaved the way he did? I really am curious when there are so many aspects of Jewish history that are inexplicably horrifying.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 09:51:49 AM by Cato the Elder »

Offline muman613

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Re: Neanderthal converts?
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2010, 10:02:58 AM »
Humans did not hunt neanderthals... I fail to see your comparison.
Probably humans both hunted and bred with Neanderthals. Just as they did with the bushmen in southern Africa (and higher up, which is how the Bantu gained malaria resistance which allowed them to migrate south). Also, cannibalism was/is widespread among humans still, most recently having saved the lines of many plane crash survivors in the Andes.

I also believe they are extinct for a reason... Hashem has no need for this species so it was made extinct...

Muman, I respect your knowledge and really do not wish to be provocative in saying this, but how can you be confident about how or why G-d behaved the way he did? I really am curious when there are so many aspects of Jewish history that are inexplicably horrifying.


Cato,

Jews believe that everything , the good and the bad, come from Hashem. We believe that the bad which has befallen the Jewish people was due to our not behaving as Hashem commanded. The Torah even lists many curses which will fall upon the Jewish people should we not follow the Torah. Our Rabbis often point out that virtually every curse listed in the Torah has come true.

You may be shocked to know that the religious Jews also see that events like the destruction of the Temples, the expulsion from the Holy Land, and the Pogroms and the Holocaust all happened because Hashem was showing us that he loves us. The first Temple was destroyed, according to the Talmud, because the Jews engaged in the three cardinal sins... The second Temple was destroyed because the Jewish people engaged in Sinat Chinum {Baseless Hatred}...

So I see that everything which happens in this world is guided by Hashems loving kindness. There is a reason that people are dying, there is a reason people are suffering, and the reason is that Hashem is sending us signs.

This is a big topic and I hope you understand what I am saying. We do not believe in the Christian form of the devil. Hashem creates both good and evil. Monotheism means that there is only ONE force which controls the entire universe. To say that things can happen in the world without Hashems permission is to take away the awesome power of Hashem.

http://www.kiruv.com/TeachingMaterials/6ConstantMitzvot/6_Constant_Mitzvot_3_-_God_Is_One.asp
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EVEN DEATH CAN BRING YOU CLOSE TO G-d

The Talmud tells the amazing story of Rebbe Akiva. Almost 2,000 years ago, the Romans tried to obliterate Judaism and made the study of Torah illegal. Rebbe Akiva could not bear the idea of abandoning Torah, so he gathered together his disciples and taught them Torah.

    The Romans arrested Rebbe Akiva and executed him by brutally tearing the skin off his body with iron forks. As he was being tortured, Rebbe Akiva joyously recited the Shema -- "Hear O Israel, the Lord our G-d, the Lord is One."

    His bewildered students asked, "Rebbe, how can you praise G-d amidst such torture?"

    Rebbe Akiva replied: "All my life I believed that a person has to give 100 percent to G-d. Now that I have the opportunity, I joyously perform it!"

Didn't Rebbe Akiva want to live? Certainly "dying" is not the goal of life! We seek to become closer to G-d -- and once you're gone, you can't achieve any more. It would seem that death is one aspect of life that moves us in the opposite direction. Everything else can be seen as a challenge, an opportunity, a way of getting closer to G-d. Except death. Death stops the growth process. You've only reached the level you've attained during your lifetime -- and that's it for eternity.

So if there's one thing a person should not want, it's death. That's why Rebbe Akiva's students were puzzled. They asked, "Rebbe, we understand the power of dying in sanctification of G-d's Name. But where does the joy come from? There's nothing left of you to grow!"

There's no question that Rebbe Akiva wanted to live, and that he appreciated life more than we ever will. Yet Rebbe Akiva was teaching his students that even though it seems death goes against the whole growth process, sacrificing even the growth process for G-d is in itself the highest level of growth! Are you willing to give up all those opportunities to come close to G-d simply because that's His will? This gets you as close as you can get. You're actually moving at hyperspeed in the right direction.

...

WITH G-d IS ONE, THERE'S NOTHING TO FEAR

In the afternoon service on Shabbat, we say, "You are one, and Your Name is one, and who is like Your people Israel." This prayer speaks about the End of Days, when the Jewish people will be united, working in harmony for one goal, and when all humanity will recognize that everything comes from G-d.

In daily life, we're often torn because one day we're moving in one direction, and the next day another. But how about when we see the singular purpose to everything? The prayer tells us the result of this exalted state is Menuchat Shalom -- total tranquility. Peace of mind.

We get caught off-guard with different challenges than we expected. That's when we start picking up the wrong messages. But if you know the truth, you won't fear any surprises. If you know that whatever "gets in your way" is all part of G-d's plan, then actually nothing can get in your way.

This outlook brings a deep sense of security. If you know that everything G-d sends is for your good, then there is nothing to fear.

King Solomon says there's only one thing to fear: Forgetting the oneness of G-d.

The Shabbat prayer also speaks about Menuchat Emet V'emunah -- true peace and security. On Shabbat, we step back from our daily efforts to shape the world -- and instead let things flow in their natural order. That is when we most intensely perceive that G-d created the world and there is one purpose to everything.

The clarity of "G-d is one" gives us this peace of mind seven days a week. Of course, we still have to struggle to figure out what's right, and then we have to find the strength to stand up for that. But at least we don't feel like we're fighting against some outside force. Your goals can never get derailed because "things didn't work out." There's simply no such thing. Difficulties are merely a new challenge in your journey toward perfection.

The only possible setback is self-imposed -- by not focusing on how the challenges are sent by G-d to guide us.

So why is "G-d is one" so important? Because in reality, there is nothing else. G-d is everything.

http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfrand/5756/kisavo.html

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Linkage Between Sinas Chinom and Absence of Simcha [Between Needless Hatred and Absence of Joy]

At the end of the Tochacha [verses of rebuke in our Parsha], the pasuk [verse] says that these ninety-eight terrible curses come "as the result of your not having served the L-rd, your G-d, with joy and with good spirit (b'simcha u'vtuv leivav) when you had and abundance of everything" [Devorim 28:47]. This is an unbelievable statement. It seems harsh that such terrible curses should befall the Jewish people, just because people are lacking what seems to be a "hidur mitzvah" [glorification of a mitzvah, which is not absolutely necessary] of observing commandments in a state of joy.

Moreover, there is another difficulty: Our Sages tell us that the Tochacha that we find at the end of Sefer Vayikra [Leviticus] corresponded historically to the events of the First Temple period; this Tochacha -- in Parshas Ki Savo -- is referring to the period leading up to the destruction of the Second Temple. We all know that the Sages tell us that the reason the Second Beis HaMikdash was destroyed was because of baseless hatred (sin'as chinam). So these two teachings of Chaza"l, our Sages, seem contradictory. What was the reason for the destruction of the second Temple -- Was it 'baseless hatred' or was it 'failure to serve G-d with joy'?

Perhaps there is no contradiction. The Torah is referring to the underlying cause of the churban Bayis Sheni [destruction of the Second Temple]. The underlying cause of the churban Bayis Sheni was lack of Simcha [joy]. Failure to serve G-d with joy, in turn, leads to Sinas Chinam.

What does this mean? Chaza"l say that Talmidei Chachomim [scholars] increase peace in the world. How is this done? I once saw, written in the name of Rav Chatzkel Abramsky, z"tl, that a person who is a Talmid Chachom, in the real sense of the word, is a person who is at peace with himself. He is happy and satisfied with what he is accomplishing in life. As a result, he exudes his inner happiness and inner peace and that has an effect on other people.

PS: RE: cannibalism.... There is a difference between people having to eat each other due to a plane  crash and a society which is based on the practice of eating other members of your species.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 10:10:43 AM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Cato

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Re: Neanderthal converts?
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2010, 11:52:06 AM »
Muman, thank you for the explanation. I greatly appreciate your writings.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Neanderthal converts?
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2010, 12:51:16 PM »
I also believe they are extinct for a reason... Hashem has no need for this species so it was made extinct...



Oh great!  That's just wonderful.  Then I'm getting my rifle and going Spotted Owl hunting.  After they're all dead, I just say, "Hashem had no need for that species so it was made extinct".

Humans did not hunt neanderthals... I fail to see your comparison.



Extinct is extinct - also, it is quite possible that modern humans did hunt Neanderthals.  That modern Humans lead to the extinction of the Neanderthals, through our actions, is almost a certainty.


There is no scientific evidence of this at all.  From where do you get it?  For a while people thought that neanderthals died out due to failure to compete technologically (ie their tools weren't as advanced or their brainpower wasn't as flexible etc), but it turns out this is not really true, as their tools were comparatively advanced.  There is no scientific consensus on how they died out, but I have not seen any credible sources claiming we killed them.   Most theories are "competition" based. (ie resources, brain power, language abilities, efficiency, etc etc).   But they have not been established.

Quote
Incidentally, there is no clear morphological distinction between "modern humans" and Neanderthals.  What one poster wrote in jest ("are they really extinct?") could be a serious question.

No, they are genetically and biochemically distinct.   There was little to NO admixture in the genes over the course of time that they were contemporaneous with the homo sapiens.  They are classed into Homo Neanderthalensis, which is a different species than homo sapiens.   The humans of today are "Homo Sapiens sapiens" which is the sapiens subspecies of homo sapiens.    There is a minority view among the scholars that neanderthals were a different subspecies of homo sapiens, ie they should be called homo sapiens neanderthalensis, but this contradicts the more recent mitochondrial DNA studies, which caused this view to lose support.

Offline GoIsraelGo!

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Re: Neanderthal converts?
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2010, 08:30:00 PM »
I watched a documentary on this, and one theory was they abandonded their babies. When Winter came and food was scarce, the group would move forward and leave the weak ones, or those less likely to survive behind.
That would include their babies, the elderly, or anyone in the clan that was sick.

With that type of practise, and their climate, I can see why they died out.

One other reason may be they did not produce enough young, and what young were born, rarely survived.

All of the above mentioned may have attributed to their extinction.

Offline TruthSpreader

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Re: Neanderthal converts?
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2010, 06:02:20 AM »
But they were Human - at least according to many scientific opinions.  Just not the same kind of Human as us.

They were human but not as advanced as modern day humans. (those that actually are human)

Dan - Stay calm and be brave in order to judge correctly and make the right decision

Offline rhayat1

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Re: Neanderthal converts?
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2010, 06:42:16 AM »
Muman, according to the Rambam, and his followers, there is such a thing as chance.  Not every detail is by Heavenly decree nor does G-d care, in most cases, where a leaf falls or which fly is caught by a spider.  According to the Rambam, only the highest level of Sadiq, such as Moshe Rabenu, merit to have haShem look after every aspect of their lives.  The rest of us are subject to chance to one extent or another.

Offline muman613

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Re: Neanderthal converts?
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2010, 09:21:19 AM »
But they were Human - at least according to many scientific opinions.  Just not the same kind of Human as us.

They were human but not as advanced as modern day humans. (those that actually are human)



I do not understand your statement.... Either they are human or they are not... And according to the scientists they were a different species, or at least a different sub-species...

Human, in terms of Jewish belief, means that they were made completely perfect {in the image of G-d} and  that they can speak {remember Adam was a speaking soul} lashon haKadosh. I seriously doubt that Neanderthal was the perfection of mankind.

Read this for some understanding : http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache%3ActUm7TgzAQIJ%3Awww.ou.org%2Fpublications%2Fja%2F5764%2F5764spr%2FBOOKS.PDF+neanderthal&hl=en&gl=us&sig=AHIEtbS2UfE057haa8mAOJIQc4mUvCUtxQ&pli=1
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 09:33:57 AM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Neanderthal converts?
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2010, 07:21:31 AM »
Actually Muman, according to Jewish belief, man was made imperfect.  It is the greeks who believed a perfect God should have made a perfect human, and therefore they 'worshipped' (so to speak) human beauty.   But in the Jewish perspective, God made man incomplete, with a job to do to complete himself through mitzvoth.  Thus explains the brit milah as a microcosm for the entirety of creation of man.  Brit milah "completes" the male child physically and spiritually in the partial act of creation that took place prior, between his two parents and God.   It is man's job to give the child a brit.   So too with the rest of mitzvoth.    There is a gemara which explains this as a meeting between Rabbi Akiva and a famous Roman philosopher or leader of some kind where this philosophical question is discussed.   I don't remember where but I heard of this several times.     

Offline Cato

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Re: Neanderthal converts?
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2010, 12:44:47 PM »
Don't want to create a non-divergent thread, but, with regard to the human-likeness of Neanderthals, as with much else, the bitterest arguments come where there is no evidence on either side.

However, in the case of Neanderthals, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. They were larger than us, with larger brains, and if I were to be dumped back into glaciated Europe I'd rather take my chance in the company of a group of adapted Neanderthals than any group of present-day African cannibal savages which seem to be regarded as human for much less reason.

Offline muman613

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Re: Neanderthal converts?
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2010, 01:30:32 PM »
Actually Muman, according to Jewish belief, man was made imperfect.  It is the greeks who believed a perfect G-d should have made a perfect human, and therefore they 'worshipped' (so to speak) human beauty.   But in the Jewish perspective, G-d made man incomplete, with a job to do to complete himself through mitzvoth.  Thus explains the brit milah as a microcosm for the entirety of creation of man.  Brit milah "completes" the male child physically and spiritually in the partial act of creation that took place prior, between his two parents and G-d.   It is man's job to give the child a brit.   So too with the rest of mitzvoth.    There is a gemara which explains this as a meeting between Rabbi Akiva and a famous Roman philosopher or leader of some kind where this philosophical question is discussed.   I don't remember where but I heard of this several times.     

I did not mean perfect as in that there is nothing remaining to be done, as the brit milah itself is a modification which Hashem commanded the Jews to make to our male children.

http://www.beingjewish.com/cycle/milah.html

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To the Jewish way of thinking, G-d created everything on earth to be perfected by man. G-d created wheat, but it takes humanity to harvest it, grind it, sift it, knead it, and bake it into bread before it can be eaten. G-d created flax, but it takes humanity to cut it, comb it, spin it, and weave it into clothing before it can be worn.

Likewise, man is also incomplete, until he is changed both physically and mentally. He must remove the physical foreskin, and he must also remove the mental barrier, the "foreskin of the heart," the tendency towards disloyalty to G-d. Man learns to control his passions.

But I did mean that Hashem made Adam completely grown, he had his full mental and physical capacity since the day of his creation. There is a great question as to whether Adam had a bellybutton since he had no mother, and thus no umbilical cord. Adam was the completion of creation on the sixth day, before he created Shabbat. According to Torah Man was the ultimate creation and the purpose of the entire universe.

I also mean that Adam was created complete, he consisted of both male and female character traits which were then seperated giving Eve, his wife, the feminine qualities.

Quote
http://www.shemayisrael.com/Parasha/chrysler/archives/bereishis70.htm

*

Chazal explain that Adam was created as an adult of twenty. Considering that the above took place immediately after his creation - just before he went on to name Chavah, his knowledge of language (Lashon ha'Kodesh), state of intelligence and profound knowledge of the creation was phenomenal, to say the least.

*

One can perhaps reconcile the creation with evolution, by explaining that G-d commanded each creation to appear, after having condensed the long, long process of evolution in a split second. In other words, things that ought to have taken millions of years to reach a stage of completion, came into being already formed at G-d's command.

But if this is feasible to say this with regard to all the other creations, it is not feasible to say it about man, who as the Pasuk describes, was formed directly by G-d "in the image of G-d", into whom He breathed a Neshamah, as the Torah writes (2:7) "And G-d formed man … and He breathed into His nostrils a Soul of life".

Adam was created directly by the Hands of G-d, body and Soul, in the form of a super-intelligent human-being, precluding the possibility of any vestige of evolution from any part of his creation!

See also Parshah Pearls (1:27).


 
« Last Edit: February 21, 2010, 01:41:34 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Neanderthal converts?
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2010, 01:54:59 PM »
There has been some evidence of Neanderthals having religion so I consider them to be human beings who had a relationship with God or were capable of such.

Offline muman613

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Re: Neanderthal converts?
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2010, 03:21:00 PM »
There has been some evidence of Neanderthals having religion so I consider them to be human beings who had a relationship with G-d or were capable of such.

What kind of religion? Just doing ritual things doesn't make religion. Remember that the idolators also had religion, so did the people who performed human sacrifice, and so are those who eat their own kind.... I dont think these creatures could understand the laws which Hashem created for mankind. This is why animals are not required to obey commandments other than their nature...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Neanderthal converts?
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2010, 07:52:58 PM »
There has been some evidence of Neanderthals having religion so I consider them to be human beings who had a relationship with G-d or were capable of such.

What kind of religion? Just doing ritual things doesn't make religion. Remember that the idolators also had religion, so did the people who performed human sacrifice, and so are those who eat their own kind.... I dont think these creatures could understand the laws which Hashem created for mankind. This is why animals are not required to obey commandments other than their nature...


Apparently, they had some rituals tied to burial and I think they have been found with flutes. Musical instruments are usually tied in ancient cultures to some kind of religious practice. They could have banged a kind of drum to keep time for the rituals and played the flute too. They had fires and tools. I consider them to be human, just a different type of human, like a different race that's just a bit more removed from the other races.

Offline Raulmarrio2000

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Re: Neanderthal converts?
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2010, 01:01:41 AM »
Even if Neanderthals were humans, the question is whether a clon of a human is human. And, besides the ethical problem of cloning ANY living being and manipulating Nature, if Neanderthals were or might have been humans it would be a serious sin to try to clon them.
And what's the point of discussing about an extinct species? Torah gives no special definition of who is a human being because, at the time it was given, the only humans were Homo Sapiens and there is no possiblity of doubt. Nobody has to deal with any practical question of whether a living being is a human or not today. Not good to investigate secrets of the past which have no practical application.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Neanderthal converts?
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2010, 05:27:41 AM »
Even if Neanderthals were humans, the question is whether a clon of a human is human.   

In what way would a clone of a human not be a human?   Was Dolly not a sheep?   Indeed, she was a sheep.

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And, besides the ethical problem of cloning ANY living being and manipulating Nature, if Neanderthals were or might have been humans it would be a serious sin to try to clon them. 

In America it is against the law to clone a human being, so it would be breaking the law of the land to do so.  It is also extremely difficult and dangerous procedure with high rate of failure, and of the people trying to do so in other countries, they have failed again and again.  It seems it is not feasible to do so in any case.   Would it be ethically wrong?  I'm not sure why it would be.   It's just creating a DNA match of a person, like an identical twin, only born at different times.   (If it was a procedure that worked and proven healthy and safe) - What's the big ethical problem?   

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And what's the point of discussing about an extinct species? Torah gives no special definition of who is a human being because, at the time it was given, the only humans were Homo Sapiens and there is no possiblity of doubt. Nobody has to deal with any practical question of whether a living being is a human or not today. Not good to investigate secrets of the past which have no practical application.

That's true, we are the human species that was kept alive and we were kept alive for a reason.  I'm not sure I understand why people would want to resurrect a competing species.  This seems like one of those suicidal "love the enemy" mentalities.