Why do Syrian Jews hate converts so much?

[White Israelite]

I've talked to a few Syrian Jews and they don't seem to accept converts at all even if it was 3 or 4 generations ago, if you ask me, I'd say they really view everything from a racial perspective. My fathers family was hardcore in protecting the Cohen lineage believing he should only marry another Cohen which I think is extreme as it is but the Syrian Jews seem to take it a step further. What are your experiences with them?

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2007/11/syrian-jews.html

    “Never accept a convert or a child born of a convert,” Kassin told me by phone, summarizing the message. “Push them away with strong hands from our community. Why? Because we don’t want gentile characteristics.” ...

    “It’s really a matter of statistics,” [Rabbi Elie Abadie ] explained to me. “Except for the Orthodox, the American Jewish community is shrinking, disappearing. In two generations, most of their grandchildren won’t even be Jews. But our community is growing. We have large families, five or six children. And only a tiny fraction of our kids leave. The Edict is what makes that true.”

    Abadie and Kassin agree that the vast majority of SY youth abide by the strictures of the Edict. “Ninety-nine percent accept it,” Kassin said. “When someone doesn’t, it’s painful, but it’s better to lose a kid here and there and save the community. Families get sick over it, sure, but that’s how it is.”

    Kassin knows this from personal experience. His sister Anna ran off with a gentile. Naturally it was a great scandal in the community, but the chief rabbi didn’t bend the rules for his daughter. “We cut her off,” Jakie Kassin told me. “We didn’t see her for 25 years. But we never stopped hoping she’d come back. Finally, after all these years, she made contact. We told her she was welcome to come back, but not with her husband or kids. She’s not here yet, but we do talk on the telephone.”

    In addition to the strictures imposed by the Edict in instances of proposed intermarriage, any outsider who wants to marry into a Syrian family — even a fellow Jew — is subject to thorough genealogical investigation. That means producing proof, going back at least three generations and attested to by an Orthodox rabbi, of the candidates’ kosher bona fides. This disqualifies the vast majority of American Jews, who have no such proof. “We won’t take them — not even if we go back three or four generations — if someone in their line was married by a Reform or Conservative rabbi, because they don’t perform marriages according to Orthodox law,” Kassin said. Even Orthodox candidates are screened, to make sure there are no gentiles or converts lurking in the family tree. ...
    The force of the Edict is lasting: the children of people who have been excluded under the terms of the Edict are themselves declared ineligible to marry into the community.
_________________________________________________________


My personal opinion is that it goes quite extreme for the Syrian Jewish community to reject their grandchildren if the person had someone in their family that converted 3-4 generations ago. I don't think i'd want to marry someone that picky though.

[muman613]

If they want to be like that, then so be it... I think that being strict sometimes is the best thing in order to keep the family Jewish. My family is a good example of the ravages of assimilation due to the leniencies of the last two generations.

I just learned last night that the four sons are representative of the Jews in exile.

The 1st generation is compared to the wise son, the chocham... He is righteous and follows the Torah, and he moves to America, and he teaches his son about the Jewish ways.

The 2nd generation is compared to the wicked son, the rasha... He was brought up in an observant household, he learned the halachas and memorized the gemaras, and yet he rejected it all when he was old enough. He rejected the heritage of his father but yet he still attends the seder. He doesn't teach his sons anything Jewish but that they were from Jewish lineage.

The 3rd generation is compared to the simple son, the tam... His knowledge of Judaism is very weak and his question at the seder is simply 'What is this?'. The 3rd generation knows it is Jewish yet doesn't really provide a Jewish education for his son.

The 4th generation is compared to the son who doesn't know to ask... This son is the one who loses his Jewish identity in the exile.

I am the 4th generation of my family in this country.

http://www.aish.com/h/pes/f/hh/48957471.html
http://www.torah.org/learning/lifeline/5757/pesach.html

PS: I was snatched from the 49th level of impurity in 2003... I did a complete teshuva and now am more observant than anyone in my family.

[White Israelite]

Yeah but I know what that's like to be rejected, my dads family was the same way towards my mother who converted and didn't want their son to marry my mother because she was German and he was a Kohen, and there was a lot of controversy. My mother underwent orthodox conversion in the 70's and it still wasn't good enough. They would call her nokhri or other names letting her know she didn't belong. Maybe it was just the shul she attended. My grandpa was very harsh towards my mother. My grandma treated my mother well though.

Granted one cannot tell one whom they can marry, but if my parents had never met and married, I wouldn't be here today. My mother did what she could to do an authentic conversion on her own and married after her conversion and my grandfather considered us as defiled.

[muman613]

Yeah but I know what that's like to be rejected, my dads family was the same way towards my mother who converted and didn't want their son to marry my mother because she was German and he was a Kohen, and there was a lot of controversy. My mother underwent orthodox conversion in the 70's and it still wasn't good enough. They would call her nokhri or other names letting her know she didn't belong. Maybe it was just the shul she attended. My grandpa was very harsh towards my mother. My grandma treated my mother well though.

Granted one cannot tell one whom they can marry, but if my parents had never met and married, I wouldn't be here today. My mother did what she could to do an authentic conversion on her own and married after her conversion and my grandfather considered us as defiled.

I don't quite know what it feels like in that situation. I have checked back for at least 5 generations and it seems I am halachically Jewish. Until this generation there was no intermarriage in my family.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Quite simply they have distorted the Torah.  I do not dislike Syrian Jews, and I do not have anything against them in general, but on this particular issue they have certainly distorted the Torah which says countless times Do Not Oppress The Convert.   There is a mitzvah to Love a convert.   With their "rabbinical decree" of the 20th century - which clearly has no halachic authority - they are abrogating the Torah (G-d forbid), and committing a terrible evil. 

Given the scandal that took place in Deal, NJ and this particular rabbi's involvement, how can anyone any longer see him as a moral authority?  This just goes to show that when rabbis or Jews uproot the Torah (this is not limited to just the reform, but "orthodox" too) or uproot certain principles of the Torah, they are only planting the seeds of evil in the community and the iniquities will grow from there.  In my opinion, the corruption evident in that scandal is only a symptom and logical conclusion of the skewed way of thinking that motivates this group communally.   I hope they will fix these evil ways.


I also still do not see the logic in comparing the issue of conversion to the issue of intermarriage and assimilation.  Two completely unrelated things.  A community can set up a high standard for conversions and create a culture where converts will be accepted as long as they accept the yoke of the commandments.   It cannot just ban conversion and shun converts and think that this somehow solves the problem of assimilation.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Yeah but I know what that's like to be rejected, my dads family was the same way towards my mother who converted and didn't want their son to marry my mother because she was German and he was a Kohen, and there was a lot of controversy. My mother underwent orthodox conversion in the 70's and it still wasn't good enough. They would call her nokhri or other names letting her know she didn't belong. Maybe it was just the shul she attended. My grandpa was very harsh towards my mother. My grandma treated my mother well though.

Granted one cannot tell one whom they can marry, but if my parents had never met and married, I wouldn't be here today. My mother did what she could to do an authentic conversion on her own and married after her conversion and my grandfather considered us as defiled.

Kohanim are forbidden to marry gerim.  Maybe it was not about the fact that she was a ger, but that she was marrying a kohen.  So if she did an Orthodox conversion, that's fine and she is Jewish, but she can still not marry a kohen.

[mord]

SYRIAN JEWS ONLY WANT MARRAIGES WITH OTHER SYRIAN JEWS .NOT EVEN WITH OTHER JEWS FROM MID EAST MIZRACHIM JEWS

[Dr. Dan]

For each jewish community to each their own. Is it fair if a non syrian jew, even a sefardic persian jew, liked a syrian jew and was rejected because he wasn't from that community?  After all a Jew is a Jew. Maybe even better to mix up the gene pool in order to not have as many genetic diseases.

Listen, Mashadi Persians also only marry each other.

I can understand personal prefence if a persian wanted to marry persian; russian marry russian etc in order to keep common tradition and values. If that's what the syrian community wants, who am I to say "no, its unjust"?

[Dr. Dan]

However a true convert is a still a Jew

[tron77]

Does it not say "when a convert converts" implying that a convert to Judism is already Jewish? this is nonsense to hate a true meaning convert. Alas all jews must remember that we are all descended from some one who converted at one point. Just because it is more difficult to become Jewish, doesnt mean that you cant be Jewish. In fact anyone who wants to go through such a lengthly conversion, and be as hated as we are in the world, is often in my opinion, incredibly brave perhaps more than alot of us who can relax in knowing that we are true Jews as we have a birthright. Just my thought....

[muman613]

I also live by the idea that we are to not oppress a convert. I know many converts {too many} who are righteous Jews and I have nothing bad to say about it. But conversion should not be a preferred thing. Judaism doesn't seek to convert the world to Judaism, just spread the knowledge of G-d to the world...

I don't know about this particular group... But I would think that being very strict about marrying out of the sect would result in less intermarriage.

[Raulmarrio2000]

Syrian Jews do not HATE converts. They simply forbid marrying them and, according to some, they consider them to be Gentiles. The real question is if they may be contradicting Torah with their policy or not. I have read that Ravs have ruled that they are entitled to refuse performing conversions (since not all communities do conversion processes), to reject converts in their kehilot (because it's permitted to have a Kehilah for a specific group of Jews), to consider some conversions as invalid if they suspect it was not done properly, but it's forbidden to say that converion itself is invalid since it would be to deny the verses of the Torah which speak about guiur.

[Zelhar]

I think it's wrong to cut off a child for marrying a Jew outside the little galut he/she comes from.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Syrian Jews do not HATE converts. They simply forbid marrying them and, according to some, they consider them to be Gentiles. The real question is if they may be contradicting Torah with their policy or not. I have read that Ravs have ruled that they are entitled to refuse performing conversions (since not all communities do conversion processes), to reject converts in their kehilot (because it's permitted to have a Kehilah for a specific group of Jews), to consider some conversions as invalid if they suspect it was not done properly, but it's forbidden to say that converion itself is invalid since it would be to deny the verses of the Torah which speak about guiur.

You are attempting to engage in apologetics, but you are not being honest with your comment.  Not sure why you feel the need to justify the practices of every community (and every practice at that), but I advise looking at things with more discernment than that.

The quote from the article is:  “Never accept a convert or a child born of a convert,” Kassin told me by phone, summarizing the message. “Push them away with strong hands from our community. Why? Because we don’t want gentile characteristics.” ...

That does not fit with what you wrote.

Just because a "rav" says it doesn't make it necessarily true.  The Torah does not say, "love the convert except for those you want to exclude from your G-d-given kehilla."   It sounds like gobbledy-gook that was made up in order to justify the practice among the Syrians and to justify the takanah of their otherwise righteous rabbi who issued it...   Of course today we can't even compare the present day rabbis with the original, given what they were involved with, so why continue trying to justify this bunk?

[Baltimore]

I always thought all you had to do to prove to Syrian Jew that you were marriage worthy was to show that for 3 or 4 generations your family has been Jewish. I can do this.  But the above statement sort of implied that if at some point along the line that if your family was married by a non-orthodox rabbi that you would not "count". Am I misreading this? That seems insane. Do you suddenly become a gentile when you are married by a non-orthodox Rabbi?

Also I thought they would only need proof that your mother, mother's Mother, and mother's mother's mother were Jewish. If they need proof that the mother's of ALL EIGHT of your GREAT-Grandparents were Jews then that is also insane.

[Ben m]

well i am not a syrian jew but i honestly don't understand my people need to be so strict about marriages.if my daughter or son will want to marry someone (even a non jew) i would not iterfere unless he is a ngero or muslim or a commie or a liberal or homosexual or with genetic defects and then it is another problem.

[Dr. Dan]

Normal athiest, I really have to disagree with this type of thinking.

First, by the laws of judaism, Jews can and only marry Jews black or white convert or non-convert.

Ideologies eg liberalism, conservatism etc can be changed in people's lives. Religion is tied to the soul, unlike many political ideologies.

As far as syrian jews only wanting to marry off to the same subculture, I can relate to that, but for completely different reasons as cited on this thread. I feel what makes a marriage more comfortable is if the married couple have more similar things in common, if it matters to them. In the persian, syrian, and iraqi jewish communities, the attitude goes with an extended family, not just husband and wife. Couples will choose eachother based on the others' families unlike most ashkenazi Jews.

But all in all, Jew should marry Jew doesn't matter the color of ones skin or the shape of ones eyes

[Chai]

For each jewish community to each their own. Is it fair if a non syrian jew, even a sefardic persian jew, liked a syrian jew and was rejected because he wasn't from that community?  After all a Jew is a Jew. Maybe even better to mix up the gene pool in order to not have as many genetic diseases.

Listen, Mashadi Persians also only marry each other.

I can understand personal prefence if a persian wanted to marry persian; russian marry russian etc in order to keep common tradition and values. If that's what the syrian community wants, who am I to say "no, its unjust"?

Incorrect ,  with Mashadi Jews some do, but there is no comparison to the way si Jews act , furthermore , when it comes to Persian Jews, so many of them dont even marry Jews, never mind marrying  a Persian . To add to that, there is no denying Askanazi jews , usually marry Ashkenazim , please dont try and turn it around and insult Persian Jews ;if anything they need to become more observant.  the frum  askanazi community is pushing us away (thank you for that)
i went to an Askanazi yeshiv, went though racism because im dark by the rabbis AND THE STUDENTS .. believe it or not  some (keyword some lol)blacks treated me better then the Askanazi Jews. there is not a time i go to a Askanzi shul were im asked why dont you go to a Sephardi.. dont get me wrong I love all Jews (as hard as it is)

[AsheDina]

For each jewish community to each their own. Is it fair if a non syrian jew, even a sefardic persian jew, liked a syrian jew and was rejected because he wasn't from that community?  After all a Jew is a Jew. Maybe even better to mix up the gene pool in order to not have as many genetic diseases.

Listen, Mashadi Persians also only marry each other.

I can understand personal prefence if a persian wanted to marry persian; russian marry russian etc in order to keep common tradition and values. If that's what the syrian community wants, who am I to say "no, its unjust"?

Incorrect ,  with Mashadi Jews some do, but there is no comparison to the way si Jews act , furthermore , when it comes to Persian Jews, so many of them dont even marry Jews, never mind marrying  a Persian . To add to that, there is no denying Askanazi jews , usually marry Ashkenazim , please dont try and turn it around and insult Persian Jews ;if anything they need to become more observant.  the frum  askanazi community is pushing us away (thank you for that)
i went to an Askanazi yeshiva ans i went though racism because im dark by the rabbis AND THE STUDENTS .. believe it or not  some (keyword some lol)blacks treated me better then the Askanazi Jews. there is not a time i go to a Askanzi shul were im asked why dont you go to a Sephardi.. dont get me wrong I love all Jews (as hard as it is)

WHO cares 18 Chai!
You love Rabbi Kahane and you are good people. I get this junk from "FRUMS" too. f- em

[Chai]

For each jewish community to each their own. Is it fair if a non syrian jew, even a sefardic persian jew, liked a syrian jew and was rejected because he wasn't from that community?  After all a Jew is a Jew. Maybe even better to mix up the gene pool in order to not have as many genetic diseases.

Listen, Mashadi Persians also only marry each other.

I can understand personal prefence if a persian wanted to marry persian; russian marry russian etc in order to keep common tradition and values. If that's what the syrian community wants, who am I to say "no, its unjust"?

Incorrect ,  with Mashadi Jews some do, but there is no comparison to the way si Jews act , furthermore , when it comes to Persian Jews, so many of them dont even marry Jews, never mind marrying  a Persian . To add to that, there is no denying Askanazi jews , usually marry Ashkenazim , please dont try and turn it around and insult Persian Jews ;if anything they need to become more observant.  the frum  askanazi community is pushing us away (thank you for that)
i went to an Askanazi yeshiva ans i went though racism because im dark by the rabbis AND THE STUDENTS .. believe it or not  some (keyword some lol)blacks treated me better then the Askanazi Jews. there is not a time i go to a Askanzi shul were im asked why dont you go to a Sephardi.. dont get me wrong I love all Jews (as hard as it is)

WHO cares 18 Chai!
You love Rabbi Kahane and you are good people. I get this junk from "FRUMS" too. f- em

I do love Rabbi Kahane .. Yea, I do ignore it ..Thanks there is good in all types of Jews

[Dr. Dan]

I don't understand why you are angry at me...I'm Persian too.. My personal preference someone from a similar background as myself which I happened to marry. I think for my children, it would be the same thing because the marriage might be easier. 

When I was speaking of Askhanazi Jews, I was giving a broad term.  I might be wrong about certain groups, but American Jews might care less if another person were necessarily American or not.  Perhaps the same might be true with Russians or Western European Jews.  However, my observations with specific group of Sefardic Jews, they prefer to stick with their own...or at least parents prefer their children to stick to their own...who knows? maybe that will change.

The Mashadi Jews are a specific group of Persian Jews who the majority will advocate only marrying their own, unlike other Persians.  Unfortunately when a tight family community does that, cousins marry cousins and then you start getting a lot of genetic problems..

For each jewish community to each their own. Is it fair if a non syrian jew, even a sefardic persian jew, liked a syrian jew and was rejected because he wasn't from that community?  After all a Jew is a Jew. Maybe even better to mix up the gene pool in order to not have as many genetic diseases.

Listen, Mashadi Persians also only marry each other.

I can understand personal prefence if a persian wanted to marry persian; russian marry russian etc in order to keep common tradition and values. If that's what the syrian community wants, who am I to say "no, its unjust"?

Incorrect ,  with Mashadi Jews some do, but there is no comparison to the way si Jews act , furthermore , when it comes to Persian Jews, so many of them dont even marry Jews, never mind marrying  a Persian . To add to that, there is no denying Askanazi jews , usually marry Ashkenazim , please dont try and turn it around and insult Persian Jews ;if anything they need to become more observant.  the frum  askanazi community is pushing us away (thank you for that)
i went to an Askanazi yeshiv, went though racism because im dark by the rabbis AND THE STUDENTS .. believe it or not  some (keyword some lol)blacks treated me better then the Askanazi Jews. there is not a time i go to a Askanzi shul were im asked why dont you go to a Sephardi.. dont get me wrong I love all Jews (as hard as it is)

[JTFenthusiast2]

I have no idea why any of us would bend over backwards to defend what is in essence, extreme bigotry.  I say let them fend for themselves.  They didn't have this attitude when they were rescued in various operations by outside Jewish individuals or agencies over the past 60 years.  Where was this arrogance and racism then?  Oh, wait, it wasn't convenient then, so they didn't express it. Hatred is hatred.  If they enjoy their separatist identity, they should have stayed in Syria where they could have enjoyed their kinship with some of the most truly despicable people known to the modern world.

And this so called 'rabbi' would prefer that his married sister ABANDON her children and husband of 25 years?  A husband who presumably loved her more than her family ever would or could, so she could come back to a family like that??? What kind of Jewish disaster is this cat?   My Godfather is Syrian and Jewish and I have a better understanding now of why his family life has always been largely separated from his 'friendship' life.

[Aces High]

Sometimes it just depends on the family, I think.  Some Syrian Jews may prefer only to marry other Syrian Jews, no big deal.  Everybody is different. Unless you fall head over heals in love with Syrian Jewess and her family won't let you in the circle, because you're not a Syrian Jew.   

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "i honestly don't understand my people need to be so strict about marriages."

There are many cultures around the world where an individual's primary and extended family relationships totally define their present and future prospects for social stability, business life, personal life, and chances for survival.

The rules which we take for granted as being the standard playbook here in America are in fact a very recent aberration away from how the rest of the world behaves.

Had Syrian Jews ever felt that they were free to marry with and to whomever they chose, there would today be no Syrian Jews, for "marrying outside the fold" would have meant dissolving all the societal bonds which allowed them to survive and flourish.

Our contemporary secularist "break with the past" and its outmoded traditions, is but one reason that America is often referred to as "The New World" as opposed to "the Old Country" of our Great-Grandparents.

The old adage is still true:  "Travel is the best education."

[Chai]

Oh, Im not angry at you im angry at the Persians that marry Mexicans ,..
I will tell you one thing In terms of observance, the SI community if falling apart so is the Persians.. 25% of my relatives already intermarried and that is only gen 2 ,all this stringency with the SI community will backfire and that will be g-ds anger measure for measure if the messiah does not come. I know of a SI that fell in love with a Persian and was not accepted, the girl wound up just marring a gentile.. The SI community is ashamed of this and they hide it ... give it another 25-50 years you will see what will happen to them, they already have their own problems... and they worship only money not the g-d of Israel ..that's one main reason why they want to keep things in the community and its an excuse that they dont want other cultures to affect theirs  I pity them...They are worried about their culture being assimilated? go to Brooklyn and look at how they live they are as gentile culture like as can be!  Talk bout Irony.