Should the Quran be banned?

[Zelhar]

Islam should be banned. You can't ban ideas and texts, but you can ban their practice.

[rebel_conservative]

Islam should be banned. You can't ban ideas and texts, but you can ban their practice.

if you accept the principle that the state has the right to ban the practice of an entire religion, where does it stop?

animal rights activists want to ban shechita.
people want to ban the passages of Torah that discuss homosexuality.
will they use equal rights legislation to force men and women to pray together, or women rabbis?

the state will step in to prevent actual, direct harm taking place - cults with perverted leaders, banning genital mutilation etc, that is legitimate because there is a use of force by someone claiming to be religious, against another person.  the Quran may be a hate-filled book, but we can only prevent people from acting on it, we should not try to stop them reading it.

[Zelhar]

Islam should be banned. You can't ban ideas and texts, but you can ban their practice.

if you accept the principle that the state has the right to ban the practice of an entire religion, where does it stop?

animal rights activists want to ban shechita.
people want to ban the passages of Torah that discuss homosexuality.
will they use equal rights legislation to force men and women to pray together, or women rabbis?

the state will step in to prevent actual, direct harm taking place - cults with perverted leaders, banning genital mutilation etc, that is legitimate because there is a use of force by someone claiming to be religious, against another person.  the Quran may be a hate-filled book, but we can only prevent people from acting on it, we should not try to stop them reading it.

Islam is not just a religion but a political ideology and movement. It is and idea-ism like Nazism and Communism combined with religion and practicing Islam means much more than keeping dietary laws and praying- it means waging war, conquering and claiming any piece of land for Allah. It means installing shariah law by force, converting or killing the infidels etc. And so I think a free country has every right to ban Islam much the same way Nazism is banned and communism used to be banned.

[rebel_conservative]

Islam is not just a religion but a political ideology and movement. It is and idea-ism like Nazism and Communism combined with religion and practicing Islam means much more than keeping dietary laws and praying- it means waging war, conquering and claiming any piece of land for Allah. It means installing shariah law by force, converting or killing the infidels etc. And so I think a free country has every right to ban Islam much the same way Nazism is banned and communism used to be banned.

a free country cannot ban any political ideology whether it is Nazism or communism, that is a contradiction in terms.  in a free country, you are able to be read The Communist Manifesto or Mein Kampf, what you are not allowed to do is establish a dictatorship of the proletariat or round up ethnic minorities.

as for Islam...
waging war and conquering land is against the law.
forcing shariah law is against the law.
forced conversion is against the law.
killing infidels is against the law.
a free country can legitimately ban all those activities, but not the entire religion of Islam.

do you think that Israel's ban on Kahanism is acceptable?  you can not pick and choose which ideologies you don't like and single them out for a ban, if you give the state the power to ban an ideology, don't be surprised if they ban JTF.

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

100% of Islam should be banned.

[Zelhar]

Like i said it is the political subversive activity of Islam or communism or whatever that should be banned. I don't believe in banning ideas and beliefs and I don't think it is possible anyway.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "...if you give the state the power to ban an ideology, don't be surprised if they ban JTF."

Whoever wrote this should be BANNED FOR LIFE!   

[syyuge]

Ban the bane of bquran and bang the bislam.

[rebel_conservative]

Re:  "...if you give the state the power to ban an ideology, don't be surprised if they ban JTF."

Whoever wrote this should be BANNED FOR LIFE!   

why?  I am not sure you understood my point.
I am not suggesting that JTF should be banned, I am saying that the liberal elite would ban JTF if they could.  Do you disagree with that?  You know that Obama would jump at the chance to ban JTF.  I don't want the govt to ban any group, including Muslims, because I fear that they will use the precedent to ban JTF - they already have Kahane Chai and Kach on terror lists!  Also, if they ban a Muslim, they will ban a Jewish group for some kind of stupid liberal balance - the reason Moshe Feiglin is banned from the UK.

[Hyades]

Islam should be banned. You can't ban ideas and texts, but you can ban their practice.

if you accept the principle that the state has the right to ban the practice of an entire religion, where does it stop?

animal rights activists want to ban shechita.
people want to ban the passages of Torah that discuss homosexuality.
will they use equal rights legislation to force men and women to pray together, or women rabbis?

the state will step in to prevent actual, direct harm taking place - cults with perverted leaders, banning genital mutilation etc, that is legitimate because there is a use of force by someone claiming to be religious, against another person.  the Quran may be a hate-filled book, but we can only prevent people from acting on it, we should not try to stop them reading it.

But you compare completely different things here:
When was the last homosexual stoned in any Western country? When were "foreign worshippers" killed in a Western democracy? How many Jewish and Christians kill in the name of Thora or the Bible today? Now tell me how many homos are killed in muslim countries? How many of the "non-believers" and "infidels" do suffer from restrictions, discrimination and even killings under Koranic law? We all know that the Koranic teachings are mostly taken exactly by the word by muslims. This also means that all they want is to dominate: Dominate Europe, the Americas and all they can by overbreeding the native populations. There IS a female rabbi here in Germany: She is from the community of Brunswick. Shechita is already prohibited in many countries. So is islamic slaughtering.
And the Thora may be strict on many things, but it does not prescribe to kill infidels, neither do any Jews blow themselves up in the name of the Thora. No Christians kill in the name of their Jesus!
But you have a good excuse in the Koran if you commit suicide attacks: Those who give their lives to kill the infidels are granted with a place in paradise. And every single non-muslim killed by a muslim can easily be excused by the Koran. So can robbing, mugging and raping be excused by the Koran - if you do all those things to non-muslims! So where would it be logic to put people to jail for instigation, to punish Nazis and KKK if at the same time you allow their muslim friends to spread the Koran?

[rebel_conservative]

not sure I understand most of what you said to be honest, but I will respond to this

So where would it be logic to put people to jail for instigation, to punish Nazis and KKK if at the same time you allow their muslim friends to spread the Koran?

I do not think Nazis and KKK should be put in jail just for reading Mein Kampf, they should go to jail for telling someone to actually kill blacks, Jews and gays.  Same with Muslims, they should not go to jail for reading Quran, they should go to jail...actually, they should be killed, when they call for the murder of Jews.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "why?  I am not sure you understood my point."

Actually, the exact opposite is true, for my reply to yours was completely in jest!   

[rebel_conservative]

Re:  "why?  I am not sure you understood my point."

Actually, the exact opposite is true, for my reply to yours was completely in jest!   

lol
 

[Zenith]

The qur'an itself isn't the greatest problem, my opinion.

As well as muslims can take a verse in the qur'an and despite anyone's imagination, succeed to convert it to a "scientific statement" and people believe, an islamic scholar can also 'translate' violent and extermist verses in the qur'an in absolutely anything, and common muslims believe, if that is indeed seems to be that islamic scholars' conviction. So the greatest problem is the man, not the book.

anyway, if islam had died soon after muhammud's death and only now had been discovered qur'anic texts, no one would have believed it and took it as the "dictated word of almighty Allah". Instead, people would have understood it as the foolish legends of Zeus and other greek gods.
Left alone, the qur'an means nothing. And if evil people existed, there would always be a doctrine and a text.

Moreover, if non-muslims ban the qur'an, it is a sign for muslims that they are right and that they are victimized, oppressed, persecuted, etc. in that place and cry it out everywhere.

[Zenith]

There is no comparison between Torah and Koran. As I explain over and over again there is no Mitzvah in killing the non-believer. The Koran goes into much depth about how it is meritorious for a muslim to kill the non-believer. Judaism on the other hand relates the fact that the Jews were subjugated and attacked and had to fight in order to survive. Those who attack the Torah are either illiterate, have not read it, or are biased against it.

yet, there are some things that are harsh in the Bible.
- Deut 20.18-21
- Deut 13,6-18 (that seems to be a "conversion to other religion" issue). if it is good for men of God to kill men of them that convert to other religion (let's say, hinduism), then why would it be evil for muslims to kill those who convert from Islam, and even those that convinced them to convert to that other religion?
- I have a question: what is the punishment of a man who sleeps with a woman (fornication, not adultery)? why should the woman be killed while the man - as far as I know - is not killed?
- from an atheist's perspective, killing people who committed fornication is great evil, while for christians/jews/muslims may seem fair. what am I missing?
- 1 Chronicles 20.3 (KJV). I found in other version (NIV) a very different translation. I would appreciate if I hear some jewish explanation on this (i.e. what's written in your Tanakh?)

[muman613]

There is no comparison between Torah and Koran. As I explain over and over again there is no Mitzvah in killing the non-believer. The Koran goes into much depth about how it is meritorious for a muslim to kill the non-believer. Judaism on the other hand relates the fact that the Jews were subjugated and attacked and had to fight in order to survive. Those who attack the Torah are either illiterate, have not read it, or are biased against it.

yet, there are some things that are harsh in the Bible.
- Deut 20.18-21
- Deut 13,6-18 (that seems to be a "conversion to other religion" issue). if it is good for men of G-d to kill men of them that convert to other religion (let's say, hinduism), then why would it be evil for muslims to kill those who convert from Islam, and even those that convinced them to convert to that other religion?
- I have a question: what is the punishment of a man who sleeps with a woman (fornication, not adultery)? why should the woman be killed while the man - as far as I know - is not killed?
- from an atheist's perspective, killing people who committed fornication is great evil, while for christians/jews/muslims may seem fair. what am I missing?
- 1 Chronicles 20.3 (KJV). I found in other version (NIV) a very different translation. I would appreciate if I hear some jewish explanation on this (i.e. what's written in your Tanakh?)

Deuteronomy 20 17-20 :

The command to remove the inhabitants of Canan is due to the wickedness of the people who lived there. These people were idol worshippers. Idol worship is the worst sin in our religion and those who used to practice it were the most wicked.

17 but thou shalt utterly destroy them: the Hittite, and the Amorite, the Canaanite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite; as the LORD thy G-d hath commanded thee; 18 that they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods, and so ye sin against the LORD your G-d. {S}19 When thou shalt besiege a city a long time, in making war against it to take it, thou shalt not destroy the trees thereof by wielding an axe against them; for thou mayest eat of them, but thou shalt not cut them down; for is the tree of the field man, that it should be besieged of thee? 20 Only the trees of which thou knowest that they are not trees for food, them thou mayest destroy and cut down, that thou mayest build bulwarks against the city that maketh war with thee, until it fall. {P}

As you can see the commandment is clear that trees cannot be destroyed in war

http://www.shemayisrael.com/Parasha/peninim/archives/achrei67.htm

Parashat ACHAREI MOS/KEDOSHIM
You must not act in the (same) manner as (the people of) the land of Egypt, where you dwelled, nor may you act in the (same) manner as (the people of) the land of Canaan…(18:2)

Rashi explains that the behavior of the inhabitants of Egypt and Canaan was more degenerate than that of any other nation. Furthermore, the inhabitants of the area in Egypt in which the Jews settled were more depraved than those in any other area. In the Sifra, Chazal go so far as to suggest that Klal Yisrael's presence in Egypt provided the catalyst for the moral depravity of the Egyptian People. This same deviation of the native population occurred when Klal Yisrael entered Canaan and became its inhabitants. The prospect of the Jewish settlement in Canaan stimulated the Canaanite's corruption. This is paradoxical! The Jewish People are to be a "light unto all the nations," a beacon of G-dliness and moral purity. Yet, here they are considered to be the reason for the immmoral behavior that surged in these two degenerate nations. How is it feasible that, just by living in the land, the Jews had such a detrimental effect upon the people?

Chazal compare the Jewish People's settlement in Egypt to a rose growing among thorns. In fact, Hashem told the people, "In Egypt, you were as a rose among thorns. As you enter Canaan, you are to continue to be worthy of that title. Do not be influenced by the actions of the Canaanites." Chazal compare this to a king who places his only daughter in an environment populated by people of base moral character. He enjoins her not to be influenced by their deviate behavior.

When we analyze Chazal's analogy, we wonder why the king placed his daughter there in the first place? This question extends to Egypt and Canaan: If they were such immoral places, why did Hashem place Jews there? Why did He play mind games with their spiritual welfare? In explaining this anomaly, Horav Mordechai Miller, zl, first examines the obligation, which is incumbent upon every Jew, to sacrifice his life to sanctify the Name of Hashem. One must be prepared to sacrifice his very life, if that is what it takes. This phenomenon has been heroically played out during our tumultuous history, as individuals and whole families sacrificed themselves on the sword and the flame, rather than renege on their commitment to the Almighty. While this has been our heritage, can we say that we would grasp this legacy with open arms, displaying the fortitude and courage to face our persecutors with the necessary strength to say, "No! We are ready to die for our beliefs!"?

...

Dueteronomy 13:6-18

This commandment involves the determination of a false prophet. If someone comes to the Jewish people and performs miracles and says that we must follow a strange G-d we are to stone them to death... This is entirely reasonable because there have been false prophets who have arisen in Jewish history and those prophets were prophets of doom. There will never be a prophet who will tell us to turn our backs on Hashem... If they do we know they are false prophets..

6 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken perversion against the LORD your G-d, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of bondage, to draw thee aside out of the way which the LORD thy G-d commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee. {S} 7 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, that is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying: 'Let us go and serve other gods,' which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;  8 of the gods of the peoples that are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;  9 thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him; 10 but thou shalt surely kill him; thy hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 11 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to draw thee away from the LORD thy G-d, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.  12 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is in the midst of thee. {S}

It does not say to kill those who convert to other religions. It involves a person who claims he is a prophet and attempts to lead the people away from Hashem... I don't see how you consider this an issue of conversion... Wicked prophets should be stoned... Period!

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/248,2196257/What-is-a-false-prophet.html

What is a false prophet?

A. The Torah1 talks about false prophets as well, instructing the populace to disobey him, to not show him kindness, not to speak in his defense, and to submit him to death (when appropriate conditions apply; see What is Judaism's opinion on capital punishment).

B. Why such friendliness? Because playing with prophecy makes playing with fire like child's play. Prophecy was G-d's method of communicating with Jewry and mankind at large, and to play around with that, to come along with a concocted story and claim you've got a message from G-d, is the most despicable form of evil. Not only is it a disrespectful to G-d, but it is an extreme danger to mankind. Claiming something falsely in the name of G-d can lead to catastrophic disaster.

How do we spot a fake?

1. The Message

If someone claims G-d instructed him to tell the people to worship idols, or permanently change Torah laws, he is a fraud. G-d forewarned that He would never tell anyone to worship anything other than the spiritual/conceptual G-d Himself, and He made it clear that the Torah cannot be changed.

2. The Messenger

When a person suitable for prophecy claims to have received one, and conveys a message (without wanting to add to or take away from any of the commandments, but simply) to serve G-d properly, we tell him if you are indeed a prophet predict the future. If he does, we wait and see. If he was wrong even in the slightest detail, he is a false prophet. But if all of what he said comes true, he is believed.

A prophet has to be checked this way many times.

It is odd to me that you find these commandments 'harsh'... There is nothing Harsh about them. The Love Hashem has for the Children of Israel is evident in the commandments. They are provided for our well-being...


Regarding the punishment for Adultery... Both the man and the woman are stoned to death...

http://www.aishdas.org/toratemet/en_yitro.html
In the Torah, adultery is not an affront to the husband but to G-d. "If a man commits adultery with the wife of another man, both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death" (Leviticus 20:1). The husband has no right to pardon the wife and adulterer because the law is G-d-given. We also see this in earlier narratives where adultery is considered a sin against G-d and not against the husband (Genesis 20:6, 39:8).

[Hyades]

not sure I understand most of what you said to be honest, but I will respond to this

So where would it be logic to put people to jail for instigation, to punish Nazis and KKK if at the same time you allow their muslim friends to spread the Koran?

I do not think Nazis and KKK should be put in jail just for reading Mein Kampf, they should go to jail for telling someone to actually kill blacks, Jews and gays.  Same with Muslims, they should not go to jail for reading Quran, they should go to jail...actually, they should be killed, when they call for the murder of Jews.

Actually I wanted to say that in no Western democracy or in Jewish orthodox communities, the laws of the Tanach are taken 1:1 into practice. But this is what Muslims want do be done with Sharia. They want Sharia law to be practiced by 100%. That means a woman would have as many rights as an animal, there would be mass stonings, beheadings and honour killings. Orthodox communities do not stone any adulterers nowadays, nor do they kill homos or whatever. They are simply kicked out of their middle in order to keep the community religiously clean, just as HaShem wants it. And I think that no single orthodox Jew today would want to see Europe or USA being ruled with stonings or killings - except for really cruel things. That should be different in Israel however. I think gays and adulterers have many places on Earth where they can live their lives as they want. I think they should really leave the Holy Land and let it clean as prescribed by the Thora.
Surely you should not jail or kill anyone for reading a book. But you could easily prohibit the books so that it is more difficult to get them. The more difficult it is, the less people this book will reach. And Mein Kampf is forbidden in many countries, but was a best seller in Turkey for two years and reached almost the same popularity as the Koran.
But what I say is, that KKK and Nazis go out killing and beating up people for the colour of their skin, their ethncity, religion or whatever. They go to jail.
At the same time there are judges (in Germany!!!) who do NOT jail muslims for beating their women because "in their culture it is normal, so it can't be punished by a secular court"! They ron, steal, rape and it is all tolerated. Many of them do not go to jail, but make some integration programmes and commit the same crimes over and over again because they think it is okay to mistreat an infidel. I ask myself why is it worse if a Nazi or KKK beats me up into a wheel chair while it is okay if a muslim does so? If I end up in a wheel chair, the result is the same.
The Bible and the Thora are not allowed to be brought into most muslims countries, nor is it allowed in many muslim countries to pray Christian and Jewish prayer even at home. So why should WE allow their satanic scriptures to be carried into our countries?

[rebel_conservative]

Actually I wanted to say that in no Western democracy or in Jewish orthodox communities, the laws of The Tanach are taken 1:1 into practice. But this is what Muslims want do be done with Sharia. They want Sharia law to be practiced by 100%. That means a woman would have as many rights as an animal, there would be mass stonings, beheadings and honour killings.

and that would be wrong and against the law. 
but there is no need to ban the Quran to prevent the introduction of sharia.

But what I say is, that KKK and Nazis go out killing and beating up people for the colour of their skin, their ethncity, religion or whatever. They go to jail.

that is entirely right, but it doesn't justify banning Mein Kampf.
the law should only step in where something crosses the boundary between speech and action.

At the same time there are judges (in Germany!!!) who do NOT jail muslims for beating their women because "in their culture it is normal, so it can't be punished by a secular court"!

very wrong, typically liberal.
I understand your frustration and anger, but the idiocy of a liberal judge is not an argument for banning the Quran.

The Bible and the Thora are not allowed to be brought into most muslims countries, nor is it allowed in many muslim countries to pray Christian and Jewish prayer even at home. So why should WE allow their satanic scriptures to be carried into our countries?

because we are free nations and they are evil despotic hell-holes?
we know that our people won't convert because of the schizo rantings of a desert paedophile, but they are terrified that their people will give up Allah for the One True G-D.

[Daniel]

Any text that is so dangerous, it should be banned since how else could we possibly expose it?

Also, if the Quran is banned, that could eventually lead to other religious texts becomming banned. While we might see the differences between the Torah and the Quran, others may not. It's a dangerous precedent to set.

[Hyades]

Without hate pamphlets and hate scriptures most people wouldn't have the base to root their hatred. The Koran gives hundereds of thousands of Muslims throughout Europe and the USA, Canada and elsewhere a new material to feed their hatred. It is true that even without it there would be people like the imams e.g. that could preach the Koran without having it in his hands. Then he would then do something illegal called hate speech citing a forbidden scripture. Hate speech can be done also by writing not only by speaking...

[Zenith]

oops, now I see...
sory,

- Deut 20.18-21

should have been Deut 21.18-21. it's about rebellious sons.

http://www.shemayisrael.com/Parasha/peninim/archives/achrei67.htm
returned "Page Not Found", by the way.

hashem means God, right?

Deut 13.6-18
in my bible it is not about the false prophets.
it is

6If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
 7Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
 8Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
 9But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
 10And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
 11And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.
 12If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
 13Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
 14Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;
 15Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
 16And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.
 17And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;
 18When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.

it's about foreign gods. so what is the difference from those gods and... gods of hinduism, for instance? or if one converts to hinduism and tries to convert others to hinduism as well? is it the same thing?
I DO agree with the things of "false prophets". I know they are very dangerous, as well as gurus that claim that they are God and convince people to suicide, etc.

Regarding the punishment for Adultery... Both the man and the woman are stoned to death..

again, I can't believe it: again, we didn't understand each other, that's not what I meant.
first off, to have it all clear:
I know that adultery = sleeping with a married person, or you are married and sleep with other person.
fornication = none is married, but sleep one with another.
I found this:

16And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.
 17If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.

so he is not killed.

[Zenith]

and, to get back to the qur'an...

I think popular and manipulating materials (videos, books, etc.) which reveal the "secret", "hidden" truth of the world that "everybody tries to hide it" are far more dangerous and fascinating than the qur'an itself.

I think imams and their teachings should be banned in non-muslim countries. muslim people grow up in non-muslim countries 'educated' by imams and islamic material the same way muslims are taught in muslim countries and stand separate from the rest of the people (as far as I've understood from series) . if told since little children that "jews are evil", "poor palestinians suffer a lot from those jews" and lots of miracles of the qur'an they surely believe it. And that's indoctrination. And a foreign book, without men, cannot itself indoctrinate people.