Author Topic: Tanakh, manuscripts, scriptures, etc.  (Read 12408 times)

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Offline Zenith

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Re: Tanakh, manuscripts, scriptures, etc.
« Reply #75 on: August 22, 2010, 07:14:43 AM »
Quote from: edu
The Jews received the Torah with its 613 commandments only at the time of Moses. Until that time, the fact that G-d, rewarded and punished for good and bad behavior as the Torah testifies which indicates some other moral code was in effect at that time. In any case some of the Noachide precepts are spelled out explicitly in Genesis chapter 9.
Also various non-jewish characters in the Tanakh appeal to some moral code in order to make a point on their behalf.
In addition the story of Noah's flood is found in the stories of many different non-jewish cultures. Since, some of the 7 Noachide precepts contradicted activities that the gentiles wanted to do, such as worshiping idols, restraint on certain types of sexual relationships (for example, with adultery with another Man's wife, male homosexuality, etc) robbery, and murder, I see no reason to suspect that a detailed lists of the Noachide laws, would survive outside the Jewish community.
Furthermore, it is well known that before Christianity and Islam reached many countries, those countries were totally pagan. Why is it that some of the details of some of those pagan cultures are totally forgotten today? Because, an opposing ideology used force or bribery to stamp out remembrance of those cultures over the centuries.
So if this could happen to pagan cultures, why not to the Noachide precepts?

If it was to believe that the Tanakh has survived as it was written only because of the Jews, I would have not believed that it survived, but rather ignored it and said "yeah, maybe, among all that is written, something was from God, but we can't know what... if any". The reason I believe the Tanakh has survived is that God wanted it to survive and wanted it to be reliable for the people that followed. If God commanded people to write it (each what he wrote), He should have taken care that what is written is nothing more and nothing less than what He intended to be written and that what is written is preserved as the centuries pass. So, if I didn't believe in God, I couldn't have believed the Tanakh is even a bit of what it was meant, but if I believe in God, then if He commanded people to write something that has survived, then what has survived must be reliable.

so the answer to this question:
"So if this could happen to pagan cultures, why not to the Noachide precepts?"
is that, if God intended it to be preserved, it would have been preserved no matter what. And it would have been preserved so that people would have had accesss to it, if the "Noachide percepts" were required.

About the fact that "various non-jewish characters in the Tanakh appeal to some moral code",
of course that even gentiles have in their nature some moral code: everybody (or, if we consider mental-disease people and alike, almost everybody) has moral code in his nature. But the problem is that it can get perverted by the society and by the teachings he receives, and he can himself do against that moral code.

Offline Zenith

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Re: Tanakh, manuscripts, scriptures, etc.
« Reply #76 on: August 22, 2010, 07:28:45 AM »
Quote from: edu
In a previous post you asked me for a better definition in mind when I accused you of being disrespectful to the sages.
I will try again to make my point clear by use of an analogy. Let's say there are many science professors that after many years of personal research and based on knowledge past down to them from previous generations, come to some scientific conclusions and then some kid off the block after 2 months of dabbling in the subject, says he knows better than everyone. All of them are wrong and he is right.
I would call that disrespectful.
(Except for certain extreme situations which are not relevant here).
Now substitute rabbis for science professors and yourself for that kid off the block and you will see what I define as disrespectful.
In your case, I personally believe that it is wrong and perhaps forbidden to provide you with addtional Torah information outside the 7 Noachide precepts.

Yeah, at least now I know that this disrespectfulness was to the sages. This should clear the fog a bit.

Now, what I have to say about this...

1. If it makes you feel better, I didn't start reading and studying the Tanakh onle a few months ago. I only started finding out what Judaism is, and thus, what Jews believe, a few months ago.

2. There's a clear difference between science and the interpretation of the Tanakh: science is provable with experiments and all the stuff (so one could use previous knowledge with confidence), while the interpretations, no matter how wise or venerated the people were, are not provable (which means that one cannot rely on them with confidence).

So these (1 and 2) make me believe that contradicting them should not be regarded as a forbidden thing, if it means anything to you.

Offline edu

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Re: Tanakh, manuscripts, scriptures, etc.
« Reply #77 on: August 22, 2010, 12:17:25 PM »
Zenith asked if G-d wants the Gentiles to do the Noachide precepts, why have they survived in their full form only among the Jews?
Answer: During the time of Noah, the whole world went astray except for Noah and his family.
The Tanakh also testifies both in psalms 96:5 and I chronicles 16:26 "for all the gods of the nations are idols". According to your logic G-d would have to abrogate free will to ensure that each and every nation preserves the Noachide precepts even during the many centuries where the nations were fully corrupt. G-d doesn't work by your presumptions.
Rather as the prophet Yishayahu/Isaiah states he has set the Jewish people to be a light unto the nations (for example, 42:6) In 49:6 it says especially the prophet Yishayahu himself will have a major role in being a light unto the nations. And similarly the prophet predicted that from the Zion the Torah shall come forth (Yishayahu chapter 2)
For the sake of time and ease I will use here the Tanakh translation by Koren publishing company.
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the L-rd's house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all the nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say Come let us go up to the mountain of the L-rd, to the house of the G-d of Yaaqov; and he will teach us of his way and we will walk in his paths: for out of Ziyyon(Zion) shall go forth Tora and the word of the L-rd from Yerushalayim(Jerusalem).

Offline edu

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Re: Tanakh, manuscripts, scriptures, etc.
« Reply #78 on: August 22, 2010, 12:20:49 PM »
Zenith writes
Quote
1. If it makes you feel better, I didn't start reading and studying the Tanakh onle a few months ago. I only started finding out what Judaism is, and thus, what Jews believe, a few months ago.
Did you learn the Tanakh in the original Hebrew or only the distorted and forced and plain out lying interpretations of the Christians in foreign languages?

Offline edu

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Re: Tanakh, manuscripts, scriptures, etc.
« Reply #79 on: August 22, 2010, 12:43:42 PM »
Rabbi Meir Kahane addressed the first Bnai Noach Conference 1990
and provided some reasons why to be a righteous follower of the Noachide Laws.
For righteous gentiles out there who want to more research, I will provide the following links to his videos (currently elul 5770/Aug. 2010)  on youtube








or search "Rabbi Meir Kahana speaks at a Bnai Noach Conference 1990"