Shalom

[Dan Ben Noah]

Shalom

[Ben m]

Take a look at the following passages.  Although people have free will to choose good or evil, G-d does apparently sometimes interfere with that in the case of world leaders.  It appears that G-d sometimes fans the seeds of evil into a flame in order to bring about the Divine plan.

Exodus 9:12 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.

Joshua 11:18 Joshua waged war against all these kings for a long time. 19 Except for the Hivites living in Gibeon, not one city made a treaty of peace with the Israelites, who took them all in battle. 20 For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses.

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD;
       he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

he don't seed the the seeds of evil just in our leader's earth.his guys are spreading this seeds everywhere!

[muman613]

Take a look at the following passages.  Although people have free will to choose good or evil, G-d does apparently sometimes interfere with that in the case of world leaders.  It appears that G-d sometimes fans the seeds of evil into a flame in order to bring about the Divine plan.

Exodus 9:12 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.

Joshua 11:18 Joshua waged war against all these kings for a long time. 19 Except for the Hivites living in Gibeon, not one city made a treaty of peace with the Israelites, who took them all in battle. 20 For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses.

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD;
       he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

he don't seed the the seeds of evil just in our leader's earth.his guys are spreading this seeds everywhere!

I dont understand what you are trying to say ben...

But in the case of Pharoah, Hashem hardened his heart in this instance in order to demonstrate to the entire world that Hashem is in control over everything in the world. Pharoah and the Egyptian mindset was only of the belief that Pharoah and the gods of Egypt were the true powers... This is why Pharoah would not yield even after several of the plagues, he was very stubborn by his very nature.

This is what it means that Hashem hardened his heart. Hashem simply caused Pharoah to become his trait of stubbornness, against the slaves and against this god Hashem, whose name 'Yud-Kay-Vuv-Kay' he had never heard. The fact is that Pharoah was supposed to subjugate the Jewish people, as promised to Abraham with the 400 years of being strangers in a land they do not belong. How harshly Pharoah treated these strangers in his land was up to Pharoah and he was extremely harsh and oppressive on the Jewish slaves.

Hashem is in control of all events in this world. He controls the leaders of nations and he controls the lowliest of creatures. Each of the ten plagues demonstrated another aspect of Hashems mighty power, to control nature and to control destiny. The power of nations do not come from man, but from Hashem.

[muman613]

Remember Tehillim 92:

6. How great are Your works, O Lord; how very profound Your thoughts! 
7. A brutish man cannot know, a fool cannot comprehend this: 
8. When the wicked thrive like grass, and all evildoers flourish-it is in order that they may be destroyed forever. 
9. But You, Lord, are exalted forever. 
10. Indeed, Your enemies, O Lord, indeed Your enemies shall perish; all evildoers shall be scattered.

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

Of the 10 plagues, Pharaoh hardened his own heart for the 1st 5 plagues, and HaShem hardened Pharaoh's heart for the later 5.  IMO, while there are numerous reasons why HaShem did this, I think among them was a punishment directly to Pharaoh.  Pharaoh chose with his free will to be evil 5 times in a row, and then would have thrown in the towel on the 6th plague but HaShem punished Pharaoh's abuse of free will by taking it away and forcing him to dig the hole deeper for himself to the point where he would eventually lose everything. -- If we choose to be evil over and over and abuse free will, God can take away your free will and you will continue to "choose" being evil as if you are captive, until hopefully God grants you return of your free will again.

Someone like Norman Finkelstein comes to mind.  A man who has chosen to do evil, committing murderous Lashon hara against a people [his own brothers and sisters as it would be] he knows do not deserve it, so often that he, seemingly, is isolated from Teshuvah [It would truly be an act of God to see this man become righteous in our days].  When looking at a man like this one can safely predict his actions and words w/o being surprised.   He is so predictable and so entrenched in his ways one must wonder if he really has the power to choose his evil actions at this point in his life or if he does evil because he has forgotten what it is like to be anything but what he is now [he is blind to righteous action because it has become unknown to him; he has braided evil to his core so that righteousness is not something which exists in his mind].  Finkelrat still serves a purpose by existing as an example of what not to be, and perhaps he mechanically serves as a cog in God's plan for the world at large to turn against the Jews before our final redemption [there is nothing like a Judenrat to rev up anti-Semites "justification" for their hate].

All I know is one really needs to not abuse their free will.  If free will is not exercised readily, and healthily it can atrophy and become unusable.

[Ben m]

Take a look at the following passages.  Although people have free will to choose good or evil, G-d does apparently sometimes interfere with that in the case of world leaders.  It appears that G-d sometimes fans the seeds of evil into a flame in order to bring about the Divine plan.

Exodus 9:12 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.

Joshua 11:18 Joshua waged war against all these kings for a long time. 19 Except for the Hivites living in Gibeon, not one city made a treaty of peace with the Israelites, who took them all in battle. 20 For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses.

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD;
       he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

he don't seed the the seeds of evil just in our leader's earth.his guys are spreading this seeds everywhere!

I dont understand what you are trying to say ben...

But in the case of Pharoah, Hashem hardened his heart in this instance in order to demonstrate to the entire world that Hashem is in control over everything in the world. Pharoah and the Egyptian mindset was only of the belief that Pharoah and the gods of Egypt were the true powers... This is why Pharoah would not yield even after several of the plagues, he was very stubborn by his very nature.

This is what it means that Hashem hardened his heart. Hashem simply caused Pharoah to become his trait of stubbornness, against the slaves and against this G-d Hashem, whose name 'Yud-Kay-Vuv-Kay' he had never heard. The fact is that Pharoah was supposed to subjugate the Jewish people, as promised to Abraham with the 400 years of being strangers in a land they do not belong. How harshly Pharoah treated these strangers in his land was up to Pharoah and he was extremely harsh and oppressive on the Jewish slaves.

Hashem is in control of all events in this world. He controls the leaders of nations and he controls the lowliest of creatures. Each of the ten plagues demonstrated another aspect of Hashems mighty power, to control nature and to control destiny. The power of nations do not come from man, but from Hashem.

i tried to say that nobody is a saqint and have a certain amound of divine evilness in him'not just the world leaders.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

These verses seem to indicate that G-d controls world leaders' actions to a greater extent than He does for an average person.  This doesn't mean that G-d is ultimately not in control.  It's just means that since the actions of world leaders have a greater impact, G-d interferes more with their free will in order to use them as vessels of Divine wrath or mercy.  An average person might find it easier to do the right thing than a world leader such as Pharaoh, who refused to let the Israelites go after his whole country was obviously being divinely punished for it.  G-d deliberately fanned the seeds of his evil into a flame in order to shape world events.  But for the average Jew trying to keep the Torah for example, I would suggest that G-d does not do this.  If they harden their hearts it is their own doing, it is not G-d interfering with their free will.

True.

I was wondering though, does this apply equally to Jewish kings/rulers? 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Of the 10 plagues, Pharaoh hardened his own heart for the 1st 5 plagues, and HaShem hardened Pharaoh's heart for the later 5.  IMO, while there are numerous reasons why HaShem did this, I think among them was a punishment directly to Pharaoh.  Pharaoh chose with his free will to be evil 5 times in a row, and then would have thrown in the towel on the 6th plague but HaShem punished Pharaoh's abuse of free will by taking it away and forcing him to dig the hole deeper for himself to the point where he would eventually lose everything. -- If we choose to be evil over and over and abuse free will, G-d can take away your free will and you will continue to "choose" being evil as if you are captive, until hopefully G-d grants you return of your free will again.

Good point.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

i tried to say that nobody is a saqint and have a certain amound of divine evilness in him'not just the world leaders.

What you wrote doesn't seem to make sense.  What do you mean by "divine evilness?"   And you are contrasting that with 'saint?'  I'm not sure I follow.

The point being made here by Dan Ben Noah is true.  There is a distinction in Judaism between rulers and everyday people.  The bigger picture events in the hands of rulers are more in direct hashgacha pratit of God's will than the events and choices of an everyday person.   However, this could just be a product of the fact that the consequences of world leaders' actions are so much more wideranging and influential then a minor decision of a regular person (to choose a white tie that day, or black tie, etc).

He is saying that every person has free will, he chooses evil or he chooses good (not automatic), but a world ruler has less control over his own choices than the average person.

[muman613]

Of the 10 plagues, Pharaoh hardened his own heart for the 1st 5 plagues, and HaShem hardened Pharaoh's heart for the later 5.  IMO, while there are numerous reasons why HaShem did this, I think among them was a punishment directly to Pharaoh.  Pharaoh chose with his free will to be evil 5 times in a row, and then would have thrown in the towel on the 6th plague but HaShem punished Pharaoh's abuse of free will by taking it away and forcing him to dig the hole deeper for himself to the point where he would eventually lose everything. -- If we choose to be evil over and over and abuse free will, G-d can take away your free will and you will continue to "choose" being evil as if you are captive, until hopefully G-d grants you return of your free will again.

I think this ties in with the Story of Jonah and Ninevah... I have heard a midrash that Pharoah actually survived Mitrayim and fled to Ninevah and became the king of Ninevah {either that or the king of Ninevah was a gilgul of Pharoah} and that he had done Teshuva.

And Jonahs free will was that he did not want to warn Ninevah of the evil decree because he was afraid that these non-Jews would do teshuva while the Jews in Eretz Yisroel did not heed the words of the prophet...

http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-category/jewish-texts/?p=2683

Pharaoh in Ninveh

Can you tell me the story of Pharaoh ruling over the city of Nineveh & its source?

A hint to the idea that Pharaoh did not die at the splitting of the Reed Sea can be found in Exodus 14:28. The verse states that the water covered over the Egyptians, “v’lo nish’ar bahem od echad.” The plain meaning of this verse is that not even one person remained. The Midrash, in Pirkei D’Rabbi Eliezer, says that the verse can be read to mean “up until, but not including one person (i.e. Pharoah), was left.” The Midrash continues to note that Pharoah became king of Nineveh.

Additionally, the commentary Ba’al Ha’turim points points out the following linguistic similarity: In Exodus 14:31 it says, “...And they [the Jewish people] believed in the Lord…”; and in Jonah 3:5 it says, “And the people of Nineveh believed in G-d….” Both verses use the word “Va’yaminu”—and they believed. This points us to the Midrash quoted above, and explains that the people of Nineveh were brought to belief in G-d by Pharaoh, when he told them of the wonders that occurred in Egypt and in the Red Sea.

The implications of this Midrash are truly astounding! The fact that someone like Pharoah, who time and again refused to recognize the power of G-d, could repent and teach a whole city about the truth of G-d, is a remarkable lesson in the strength of repentance.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Dan and KWRBT are right. This also applies to Koresh the King of Persia.

[muman613]

Dan and KWRBT are right. This also applies to Koresh the King of Persia.

What are they right about?

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Dan and KWRBT are right. This also applies to Koresh the King of Persia.

What are they right about?

The point being made here by Dan Ben Noah is true.  There is a distinction in Judaism between rulers and everyday people.  The bigger picture events in the hands of rulers are more in direct hashgacha pratit of G-d's will than the events and choices of an everyday person.   However, this could just be a product of the fact that the consequences of world leaders' actions are so much more wideranging and influential then a minor decision of a regular person (to choose a white tie that day, or black tie, etc).

He is saying that every person has free will, he chooses evil or he chooses good (not automatic), but a world ruler has less control over his own choices than the average person.

[muman613]

Dan and KWRBT are right. This also applies to Koresh the King of Persia.

What are they right about?

The point being made here by Dan Ben Noah is true.  There is a distinction in Judaism between rulers and everyday people.  The bigger picture events in the hands of rulers are more in direct hashgacha pratit of G-d's will than the events and choices of an everyday person.   However, this could just be a product of the fact that the consequences of world leaders' actions are so much more wideranging and influential then a minor decision of a regular person (to choose a white tie that day, or black tie, etc).

He is saying that every person has free will, he chooses evil or he chooses good (not automatic), but a world ruler has less control over his own choices than the average person.

Yes, that is certainly true... That the leader acts out the decrees of Hashem... Remember the story of Purim?

The evil decree to destroy all the Jews in the world came from Hashem himself, not only through Haman and King Achashveros... World leaders are just like playthings to the master of creation..

[muman613]

http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/purim/unmask.htm

...

Although Hashem's name is not mentioned in the Megilla, the Midrash 7 explains that when the passuk says "HaMelech", the King, without mentioning Achashverosh by name, it is an allusion to Hashem - Malcho shel Olam, the King of the Universe. In these places, Achashverosh, the King of this world was mirroring the actions of Hashem the Melech Malchei HaMelachim, the King of Kings, in the Heavens 8. Let us now revisit the passuk: "And the King removed His signet ring and gave it to Haman." It was the Malcho shel Olam who removed the ring and this was what frightened the nation to sincere repentance more so than all the prophecies of the nevi'im.

The Bnei Yisrael enjoy Hashgacha Pratis, Divine Intervention. Hashem plays a direct role in the lives of the Jewish People, both on a national and individual level. When, over the course of time, the Jewish Nation sinned, the nevi'im stood up and rebuked them to mend their ways. If the people remained complacent, the nevi'im warned of dire consequences. Foreign armies would attack and plunder their possessions, famine, disease and plague would strike the people. However, this did not arouse them from their slumber. For who was punishing them? Hashem! Hashem is our Father and a father punishes with mercy. More importantly, if Hashem would cause them to suffer, that meant He still cared for them. They were still His children under the guidance of His ever-watchful eye.

...

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

Of the 10 plagues, Pharaoh hardened his own heart for the 1st 5 plagues, and HaShem hardened Pharaoh's heart for the later 5.  IMO, while there are numerous reasons why HaShem did this, I think among them was a punishment directly to Pharaoh.  Pharaoh chose with his free will to be evil 5 times in a row, and then would have thrown in the towel on the 6th plague but HaShem punished Pharaoh's abuse of free will by taking it away and forcing him to dig the hole deeper for himself to the point where he would eventually lose everything. -- If we choose to be evil over and over and abuse free will, G-d can take away your free will and you will continue to "choose" being evil as if you are captive, until hopefully G-d grants you return of your free will again.

I think this ties in with the Story of Jonah and Ninevah... I have heard a midrash that Pharoah actually survived Mitrayim and fled to Ninevah and became the king of Ninevah {either that or the king of Ninevah was a gilgul of Pharoah} and that he had done Teshuva.

And Jonahs free will was that he did not want to warn Ninevah of the evil decree because he was afraid that these non-Jews would do teshuva while the Jews in Eretz Yisroel did not heed the words of the prophet...

http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-category/jewish-texts/?p=2683

Pharaoh in Ninveh

Can you tell me the story of Pharaoh ruling over the city of Nineveh & its source?

A hint to the idea that Pharaoh did not die at the splitting of the Reed Sea can be found in Exodus 14:28. The verse states that the water covered over the Egyptians, “v’lo nish’ar bahem od echad.” The plain meaning of this verse is that not even one person remained. The Midrash, in Pirkei D’Rabbi Eliezer, says that the verse can be read to mean “up until, but not including one person (i.e. Pharoah), was left.” The Midrash continues to note that Pharoah became king of Nineveh.

Additionally, the commentary Ba’al Ha’turim points points out the following linguistic similarity: In Exodus 14:31 it says, “...And they [the Jewish people] believed in the Lord…”; and in Jonah 3:5 it says, “And the people of Nineveh believed in G-d….” Both verses use the word “Va’yaminu”—and they believed. This points us to the Midrash quoted above, and explains that the people of Nineveh were brought to belief in G-d by Pharaoh, when he told them of the wonders that occurred in Egypt and in the Red Sea.

The implications of this Midrash are truly astounding! The fact that someone like Pharoah, who time and again refused to recognize the power of G-d, could repent and teach a whole city about the truth of G-d, is a remarkable lesson in the strength of repentance.

That is a really neat way of tying in Pharoah with teshuvah [and Jonah].  What a powerful witness to the might of HaShem Pharoah would be indeed.

I have done a bit of reading on a concept of "tumah" which means "spiritual impurity".  Supposedly there are 50 levels of this state, with 1 being the least offensive, and 50 being the most offensive.  Teshuvah is achievable in any level from 1-49.  If a person reaches the 50th level of tumah they are too spiritually impure to make teshuvah. 

If Pharoah was ready to let the Israelites go after the 5th plague but HaShem commandeered his free will and made him continue to sin, during the time HaShem hardened Pharoah's heart it would seem Pharoah was less responsible for the sins he committed than the first 5 hardening of his heart he voluntarily sinned on his own, so once HaShem let Pharoah have his free will back he would be even more poised to make teshuvah after 10 plagues and hardenings of his heart because 5 additional plagues/hardenings had occurred since he was ready to throw in the towel and admit he was lessor than HaShem, but he would feel still feel responsible for all 10 hardenings of his heart because HaShem would have never explained to Pharoah what happened.  HaShem's actions may have given Pharoah a more explicit look at why sinning is not a palatable lifestyle, which would leave Pharoah only one place to go to, making teshuvah.  Had Pharoah achieved the 50th level of tumah on his own it would have been unnecessary for HaShem to commandeer his free will for Pharoah to sin [at level 50 all Pharoah would have been able to do was sin], since HaShem needed to control Pharoah for him to keep sinning I think it implies teshuvah was entirely possible for Pharoah because Pharoah would have let the Jews go free on his own otherwise after 5 plagues [but if that happened without HaShem stepping in Pharoah would have still been surrounded buy the evil kingdom and government he had always been and less inclined to make teshuvah because he could easily get lost in his wicked society which would not have been decimated by 5 further plagues, including the loss of his own son -- by losing everything he ended up gaining something valuable].

I do believe this Midrash very well could have happened.

[~Hanna~]

So true, Dan, so true.