Author Topic: The fools who canceled the Lavi Fighter  (Read 1770 times)

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Offline mord

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The fools who canceled the Lavi Fighter
« on: July 27, 2010, 06:16:34 AM »
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/f-35-take-it-or-leave-it-1.304297   












Who would have believed it? Some years ago Israel was developing the world's most advanced fighter aircraft, the Lavi, while the Western world's aircraft manufacturers were beating their way to our door, eager to participate in the Lavi project, or trying to sell their competing plane to the Israel Air Force. And now Israel goes hat in hand pleading for a chance to be allowed to acquire the F-35 aircraft, at a price tag of $150 million each. But it's not only the astronomical price. Israel is told that the F-35 must be taken as is - no changes or modifications to suit Israel's specific needs, and absolutely no Israeli systems included. Take it or leave it.

Just imagine Israel's position today had the Lavi project not been canceled. The IAF would be operating the world's most advanced fighter, upgraded over the years to incorporate operational experience and newer technology. Much of Israel's industry would have moved a great step ahead, Israel Aerospace Industries would have become a leading developer of fighter aircraft, and most importantly, a number of options would be open to the IAF in choosing its next fighter.
F-35    

F-35 Lightning II, also known as the Joint Strike Fighter, manufactured by Lockheed Martin Corp.
Photo by: AP

What were the outlandish claims trumpeted by the opponents of the Lavi? The project, they said, was too big for Israel. These narrow-minded skeptics had not believed that we could convince the U.S. Congress to fund most of the project, and certainly were incapable of foreseeing Israel's economic growth in the years to come. Now they are staring at a $3 billion price tag for 20 F-35s. They said Israel should not be developing military platforms but only accessory systems to be mounted on the platforms. Now Israel will not be allowed to mount Israeli systems on the F-35.

And where would we be today if we had believed that nonsense about not developing platforms? Out of the satellite-launching and unmanned-aerial-vehicle business. Where are they today, the people who at the time foolishly led the crusade against the Lavi? Surprisingly, 23 years later, some are still involved in decision-making on national security. They were against the development of the Lavi, against the development of an Israeli reconnaissance satellite, and against the development of the Arrow ballistic missile interceptor. But unfazed, they continue on.

Do they admit they were mistaken? Admitting past mistakes is a rare human quality, but there are exceptions. Dan Halutz, a fighter pilot ace and former IAF commander and chief of staff, at the time like many senior IAF officers a supporter of the cancellation of the Lavi project, recognizes in his recent book that it was a mistake to cancel the project.

So what's the use of crying over spilled milk? Are there alternatives to swallowing our pride and shelling out $3 billion for 20 F-35s? (The original plan had been to acquire 75 aircraft, which would have brought the price above $11 billion, but that was too expensive. ) Before we make that commitment, a little intellectual effort should be invested in looking at other options.

Does Israel still have the technological capability to design a first-rate fighter aircraft? That needs to be examined in some depth. No doubt some of the capability that existed at the time of the Lavi project has been lost over the years, but as has been proved time and again, Israel has a world-class technological capability. Its success in unmanned aerial vehicles is only one of a number of examples.

If it turns out that the capability to design the IAF's next fighter aircraft does exist in Israel, where could we go from there? Not to the U.S. Congress in search of funding, because we would have to remind them that 27 years ago they were fools to invest $1 billion in the development of the Lavi that Israel decided it did not want. We would have to look for partners who are prepared to invest resources in such a project, who have the necessary technological capability, and who are not involved in the F-35 project.

Are there such candidates? In theory, yes. France, with a great aeronautical industry, chose not to participate in the F-35 project. India, with a considerable aeronautical capability and a meteorically growing economy, might be another candidate. And there is Russia. Perhaps none of them would be interested, and perhaps all of them would be. It's worth a try.
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
Shot at 2010-01-03

Offline Aces High

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Re: The fools who canceled the Lavi Fighter
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2010, 06:38:18 AM »
If Israel didn't have all these welfare Arabs, living inside her, they would have had the money to fund the Lavi fighter. Also, The security cost of manning checkpoints, and guarding every possible place against murderous Arab attacks is a huge drain on Israel!

Offline t_h_j

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Re: The fools who canceled the Lavi Fighter
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2010, 10:47:58 AM »
The F-22 is far superior than the Lavi...

Offline IsraeliGovtAreKapos

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Re: The fools who canceled the Lavi Fighter
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2010, 10:49:04 AM »
The F-22 is far superior than the Lavi...

The F-15 and F-16 are far inferior.

Offline Maimonides

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Re: The fools who canceled the Lavi Fighter
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2010, 11:18:17 AM »
The F-22 is far superior than the Lavi...

F-22 is right now the best Fighter Jet out there, and it is far better than the F-35, but Congress and the Obama administration have shut down F-22 production completely.

However as the article states had Israel developed the Lavi it would have the industry today to build its own stealth fighter. Meanwhile TURKEY is allowed in on the F-35 project, while Israel is not!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II#Turkey
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Offline syyuge

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Re: The fools who canceled the Lavi Fighter
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2010, 11:28:33 AM »
Lavi would have brought F-15 & 16 to extinction and F-22 would have been discontinued.
There are thunders and sparks in the skies, because Faraday invented the electricity.

Offline t_h_j

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Re: The fools who canceled the Lavi Fighter
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2010, 12:08:57 PM »
The F-22 is far superior than the Lavi...

The F-15 and F-16 are far inferior.

how exactly?

Offline White Israelite

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Re: The fools who canceled the Lavi Fighter
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2010, 02:33:02 PM »
F-35 is garbage, ask anyone in the airforce, shoulda just stuck with F-22's

Offline t_h_j

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Re: The fools who canceled the Lavi Fighter
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2010, 02:48:28 PM »
F-35 is garbage, ask anyone in the airforce, shoulda just stuck with F-22's

the F-35 and F-22 don't have the same role.

Offline mord

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Re: The fools who canceled the Lavi Fighter
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2010, 02:54:02 PM »
http://www.janes.com/news/defence/jdw/jdw080519_2_n.shtml   












Chinese J-10 'benefited from the Lavi project'

By Robert Hewson

19 May 2008
China's J-10 (Internet)

 
 

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Russian aerospace engineers have confirmed to Jane's that China's Chengdu J-10 fighter aircraft benefited from significant, direct input from Israel's Lavi programme - including access to the Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) Lavi aircraft itself.

In a number of interviews Jane's has talked at length with several engineers, designers and technical specialists - some of whom have been working with their Chinese counterparts for decades and have had first-hand experience on Chinese military projects. They have provided detailed accounts of the assistance given to various Chinese manufacturers and their military aircraft projects. This has included extensive design and performance modelling, wind-tunnel testing and advanced aerodynamic design input.

Senior Russian engineers who spoke to Jane's recalled their many visits to Chengdu, and elsewhere in China, some of which began in the 1980s. Jane's was told how Chengdu officials of the highest level stated how they had one of the IAI Lavi prototypes in their facilities. Describing his conversations with Chengdu concerning possession of a Lavi aircraft, one Jane's source commented: "I did not consider that to be a revelation ... doesn't everyone know that already?"

It is not possible to independently verify the Russian comments. The charge of Lavi technology transfer has been made before, but this time the claims come from individuals with sustained personal experience of the programme. Both Chinese and Israeli officials have long refuted any purported links between the J-10 and the Lavi.

Image: China's J-10 (Internet)
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 03:00:11 PM by mord »
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
Shot at 2010-01-03

Offline White Israelite

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Re: The fools who canceled the Lavi Fighter
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2010, 02:57:28 PM »
F-35 is garbage, ask anyone in the airforce, shoulda just stuck with F-22's

the F-35 and F-22 don't have the same role.

I realize that, but the airforce has been reducing orders of F-22's in favor of multi role fighters.

Offline t_h_j

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Re: The fools who canceled the Lavi Fighter
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2010, 03:09:39 PM »
F-35 is garbage, ask anyone in the airforce, shoulda just stuck with F-22's

the F-35 and F-22 don't have the same role.

I realize that, but the airforce has been reducing orders of F-22's in favor of multi role fighters.

well think of it this way, the AF has many more uses for multirole fighters than they do for air superiority fighters, unless the taliban somehow gains an airforce.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: The fools who canceled the Lavi Fighter
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2010, 03:18:12 PM »
well think of it this way, the AF has many more uses for multirole fighters than they do for air superiority fighters, unless the taliban somehow gains an airforce.
Newsflash Hidden Author, ever heard of the Russian Air Force? The RF is flush with natural gas and oil money and they have been investing it all back into their military. The latest Sukhois are pretty kurvaing, and their nuke program hasn't taken a break either. Only on your fantasy planet is every country but the United States disarmed.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: The fools who canceled the Lavi Fighter
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2010, 03:19:29 PM »
The F-22 is far superior than the Lavi...
No sh** Sherlock, that's what happens when you compare 1980s to 2000s technology. Your point being?

Offline t_h_j

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Re: The fools who canceled the Lavi Fighter
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2010, 04:47:58 PM »
The F-22 is far superior than the Lavi...
No sh** Sherlock, that's what happens when you compare 1980s to 2000s technology. Your point being?

i guess you didn't read the article.  it said this "Just imagine Israel's position today had the Lavi project not been canceled. The IAF would be operating the world's most advanced fighter, upgraded over the years to incorporate operational experience and newer technology."

Not to mention that the F-22 is 90's tech, not "2000s technology."

Offline t_h_j

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Re: The fools who canceled the Lavi Fighter
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2010, 04:50:53 PM »
well think of it this way, the AF has many more uses for multirole fighters than they do for air superiority fighters, unless the taliban somehow gains an airforce.
Newsflash Hidden Author, ever heard of the Russian Air Force? The RF is flush with natural gas and oil money and they have been investing it all back into their military. The latest Sukhois are pretty kurvaing, and their nuke program hasn't taken a break either. Only on your fantasy planet is every country but the United States disarmed.

...and the US and Russia are never going to engage in a shooting war, ever, because of the simple reality known as mutually assured destruction.  You're really the master of not comprehending what you read, aren't you?