20-something guy in the Land of Israel seeks vegetarian right wing "extremist"..

[orange]

I'm in my mid 20's and I'd really like to get married. I'm vegetarian and the Land of Israel will be my home forever. Leaving Israel isn't an option. I want someone as serious about protecting the Land as I am and a complete vegetarian. (Not one of these people who have a "meat on Shabbbos" requirement...)

Yes I know that just ruled out 99.999% of women.

Just to clarify, since some people don't actually believe me when I say these things, I will NOT compromise on my vegetarianism. I will NOT compromise on my love for the Land and live in America. I don't want someone who will just passively accept my beliefs, I want someone who holds them 100% herself!!!

(The really strong right wingers don't tend to be vegetarian and the vegetarians are often the world peace let's-all-love-humanity types....)

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I know how you feel, brother. I require a woman who ONLY wants to adopt and not have biological kids. Problem is that most women who do not want bio kids are leftie feminists. 

Anyway, best of luck in your search!

[jdl4ever]

I would lose the vegetarian requirement.  How about a women who will respect you being a vegetarian but who is not one?  Also most women don't care about politics so it is hard to find a politically oriented girl.  I'm just looking for someone who wouldn't mind by Kahanist beliefs. 

[orange]

I can't say what I'll do when Moshiach comes because I'm sure that'll be a whole different world. I can only say what I'll do while we're still waiting for Moshiach...

To answer Yacov Ben Rachamim, I'm vegetarian for a few reasons. Health, cruelty to animals, and Gan Eden are among them. The human body has difficulty digesting meat, and I believe we were never created to eat meat. (I'm talking about pure meat. I could go on for many paragraphs about the risks of chemicals, growth hormones, mad cow disease, etc.) H' lets people go the way of their free choice, so when Jews had the craving for Slav birds that was permitted by H' (reluctantly). H' didn't tell Adam to go kill some of his animal buddies and enjoy them for dinner. (Okay, okay, so now you'll say vegetarians caused the downfall of humanity because he and Chava ate from the tree... I don't have an answer for that one! ) Yes I know you can tell me about Avraham and other instances where meat was glorified, and I can't tell you what I'll eat after Moshiach comes, I can only say what I believe is right for me in the times we live in.

jdl4ever: A woman who will respect me being a vegetarian but who isn't one herself will present many problems, including what to have for Shabbos. Assuming she even agrees to have no meat in the house at all, would that be fair to her? I'd much rather have better Shalom Bayit with a woman who is a vegetarian herself. Someone who is vegetarian is usually health conscious and open to vitamins etc., another big plus.

I'm not really expecting to find her here, but I have to do my part and try to find her... Hey, I stand a better chance here than many other places...

Shavua Tov / Chodesh Tov!!!!!!

[adam613]

>Chaimfan wrote:
>I know how you feel, brother. I require a woman who ONLY wants to adopt and not have biological kids.

Why don't you want to have your own kids. From what I understand you don't fullfill the obligation of be fruitful and multiply from adaption. Furthermore, while an adopdated child should have a sense of gratitude toward his adoptive parents they are considered the real parents regardless. Honor thy father and mother applies to the biological parents.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Why don't you want to have your own kids. From what I understand you don't fullfill the obligation of be fruitful and multiply from adaption.

I'm a Gentile. I merely posted here to show solidarity with Orange. I am a vegetarian by no means, but I just wanted to let him know I understand what it's like to have a strong requirement in a mate no one else can understand.

Honor thy father and mother applies to the biological parents.

I would have thought it applied to both.

[adam613]

Honor thy father and mother applies to the biological parents.

I would have thought it applied to both.
[/quote]

Well there is a Gemara (don't have the sources) in which a child says he doesn't have to respect his parents because they aren't his real parents. And the gemara then explains he is technically correct but he still should have a sense of gratitude for the adoptive parents to raise him. And he was punished for that reason. An adoptive child should appreciate his adoptive parents for raising him but it isn't the same as your biological parents. And that is another issue of adoption that a child does have the right to know who his real parents are if the biological parents give that info. Sometimes there are children you can help by adopting them  but I still think a person should want children of his own.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Well there is a Gemara (don't have the sources) in which a child says he doesn't have to respect his parents because they aren't his real parents. And the gemara then explains he is technically correct but he still should have a sense of gratitude for the adoptive parents to raise him. And he was punished for that reason.

I am afraid I have not heard of the above passage... is it Talmudic? It doesn't ring any bell with me. 

but I still think a person should want children of his own.

It is an extremely strong personal preference of mine, much like Orange's is to be a vegetarian. I eat meat and have no intention of ceasing, but as a very particular idealist in many other ways, I can sympathize with such a strong esoteric personal requirement.

[Lisa]

Just to make sure I understand this, if a married man or woman cannot have children, and they adopt, it still doesn't count in terms of being fruitful and multiplying?  If so, why? 

[adam613]

Because it isn't your child. Anymore then being a step parent doesn't make you the father or mother. It is a tremendous good deed to adopt a child that's parent can't or don't want to raise them but it doesn't make you the real father or mother. An adopted child who isn't Jewish has to be converted. I know for the command to honor thy father and mother it applies to biological parents although again I am a sense of goodwill and loving your fellow man an adoptive child should treat their adoptive parents with respect. Actually now that I am thinking about it I am not sure if adoptive children would be consider fullfilling the command but all the other indicators say it isn't your child so I don't know why it would be different here unless someone could tell me otherwise. The fathers name is the biological fathers when you say their name. And if you don't know it you likely say the son of Abraham. That is what a convert does.

If someone doesn't fullfill being fruitful and multiplying due to circumstances beyond their control g-d isn't going to punish them severely for this if they tried or if they made a mistake when they are young and really can't do anything about it now but try to make sure other people do get married and have children. And certainly adopting if you can is a good deed that g-d will reward you for on it's own merits and certainly if you can't have children of your own.

I'll share one more item with you, Lisa, which I don't know if you know although I understand not all the Rabbi's agree with it and I actually find it odd too although it really is academic because of the fact that it requires both a man and a woman anyway. That is they consider the obligation to be the man's only. Although there were Rabbi's who disagreed. I say it is academic because if woman don't want to have children what is a man to do. And if g-d asks man why he didn't have children he will say he tried but his wife didn't want or woman he dated didn't want so he never got married. The woman will them have to defend herself, and she may say well the Rabbi told me I could put off having children. And the Rabbi will have to answer if they are telling them they don't have to have children or can wait to have children when she is of a good age to get married.  Anyway, since it is much more in control of a woman to have children and women have to sacrifice more to have children even according to the majority Rabbi's that say it is the man's Mitzvah the women deserves credit for helping the man fulfill it. And if the man didn't children but the woman did she certainly deserves more credit then the man does and likely g-d will reward her more then the man despite these Rabbi's rules.  But I have always find it odd that the majority of the Rabbi's in the Talmud felt it was the man's mitzvah because he can't do it unless a woman also wants children.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I know that I have read Jews believe that only the man is required to procreate before. I have never understood this... it really does not make sense to me. 

As for the overall topic though, there seems to be two exigetical camps. Some interpret the Genesis passage to "be fruitful and increase in number" as a commandment. Others feel that it was a blessing or gift. I happen to fall into the latter. I just know I really want to adopt.

[jdl4ever]

It is a commandment for Jews. Gentiles are not required to be fruitful and multiply according to The Noahide Laws.

Are you sure about this?  Because the simple explanation is it applies to all man since it was said by G-d before the Torah was given, even before Adam. 

[habiru]

I'm a pseudo-vegetarian (I rarely cheat and when I do, it has to be worth it-I do have a soft spot for my mom's chicken soup).  But it really bugs me that people automatically associate vegetarianism with hippies and extreme liberals. By the way, the great Rabbi Kook was a veg.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

That is most interesting. Yes, I am a Gentile, but why wouldn't it apply to us both? Christians and Jews use the same Genesis after all.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Yes, but Christians do accept all of Jewish scriptures as inspired also.

[Fruit of thy loins]

It would be a mercy if gentiles were the oppose of fruitful and multiplicative i.e. barren.

I have noticed that many people simply have children to make their own lives bearable.  So they hand on the same mental anxieties, feeling of futility, and unanswered problems to their children.

Does it not say in Genesis that the woman multiplies sufferings on earth by bearing forth the fruits of her loins?

Even so.

It is a sin against the Holy Spirit to have children.

In my opinion death is preferrable to consciousness and for 99% of humankind this is the Truth.

[orange]

This is a great discussion going on, I'm flattered and thrilled to have my thread be used for such good purposes!!

Habiru: I can't believe I didn't know Rav Kook was vegetarian... wow!! Also, I know that in Bat Ayin there are plenty of vegetarians who are anything but liberal, and I'm sure there's a girl out there somewhere for me... I certainly break the vegetarian = liberal "rule" so I'm just looking for my second half!

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Yacov: I specifically am referring to Christians, not Gentiles in general or (heaven forbid) Muslims. I just think it is most interesting how Christians, who believe that all of the Jewish Scripture is literally inspired, can have such a radically different take on what constitutes a "commandment" and which is merely a gift, blessing, reward, etc.

Fruit: As far-out as many of your ideas are, I really do for the most part agree with you here, and it is part of my reason for only wishing to adopt. There is enough misery and people in the world as it is--why not give one of society's throwaways a chance to escape that and hopefully become a righteous Gentile?

Orange: You're very welcome. 

[jdl4ever]

I think you should ask Chaim this one since I think it is a commandment for gentiles as well due to the fact that it was menchaned before the time of Adam as applying to all man. Maybee it was not enumerated as one of the seven laws of Noah because it was obvious.  For the 7 laws to exist you need people around to keep them.   

[mord]

Hitler was a vegeatarian le  havdel